Nirvana's place in the world of music....

[Peck]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

psssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! You people and your punk rock.... I'll give you punk rock. Bonus points for anybody who actually has seen this move (besides me).

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Bill, your timeline is really messed up.

Around 1985 and 1986 the punk scene was completely taken over by testosterone fueled thugs, many of which were neo-nazis. Every important punk band suddenly stopped making records and dropped out of the scene. Punk had transformed into a genre of music called Hard Core.

It was no longer safe for guys like Jello Biafra and Henry Rollins to go to punk shows. That's right, the guys who created the scene couldn't check out new bands without fearing for their lives.

The movie American History X takes place in this dark era of punk/hardcore, I strongly encourage that everyone check it out. You might get a sense of what I'm talking about.

Bleach was not a punk record. Because it didnt sound one bit like any of the punk music played in the punk scene at the time. Bleach was an indie rock record. That's what it was called then. That is until the term "grunge" was coined as a new descriptive classification, and that what it's called now. Bleach leaned heavily on the golden age of punk (67-80) but it was not a part of punk. The same way that a country artist might lean heavily on the Eagles but are not 70's southern rock. They're something else.

I hope this made sense.

It took a lot of hard work by bands like Green Day and Rancid to bring punk back from the dead.

But Nirvana wasn't part of punk. They were a part of the Pacific Northwest Grunge scene. That's the genre.

It makes sense, I just don't understand where my timeline is messed up. The Thurston, CBGB, Ramones, Basquiat talk is all from the 80s. I know violence helped the fall of CBGB (and you are saying it was racist violence?). I don't understand why The Ramones went on a Punk rock tour with Nirvana, Sonic Youth, and Dino Jr if it was considered racist? And what was Sonic Youth's Evol or Daydream Nation?

I understand what you are saying about punk being racist (American History X), but again, that has been there since the Oi! days. I think it's unfair to lump The Ramones and what they were doing with bands into that. Then to go on and say those bands weren't apart of punk.

[cdash]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Don't worry I don't consider Seether as punk...I don't even consider them. (and why are you bringing up seether, anyway?

I thoroughly enjoy your contributions to this thread.

[Merz]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

If you think Seether is punk, you're just being ridiculous.

Don't worry I don't consider Seether as punk...I don't even consider them. (and why are you bringing up seether, anyway?

[Los Angeles]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Bill, your timeline is really messed up.

Around 1985 and 1986 the punk scene was completely taken over by testosterone fueled thugs, many of which were neo-nazis. Every important punk band suddenly stopped making records and dropped out of the scene. Punk had transformed into a genre of music called Hard Core.

It was no longer safe for guys like Jello Biafra and Henry Rollins to go to punk shows. That's right, the guys who created the scene couldn't check out new bands without fearing for their lives.

The movie American History X takes place in this dark era of punk/hardcore, I strongly encourage that everyone check it out. You might get a sense of what I'm talking about.

Bleach was not a punk record. Because it didnt sound one bit like any of the punk music played in the punk scene at the time. Bleach was an indie rock record. That's what it was called then. That is until the term "grunge" was coined as a new descriptive classification, and that what it's called now. Bleach leaned heavily on the golden age of punk (67-80) but it was not a part of punk. The same way that a country artist might lean heavily on the Eagles but are not 70's southern rock. They're something else.

I hope this made sense.

It took a lot of hard work by bands like Green Day and Rancid to bring punk back from the dead.

But Nirvana wasn't part of punk. They were a part of the Pacific Northwest Grunge scene. That's the genre.

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Hey man, for a guy who likes to give history lessons, I'm actually a little surprised at that you would fire such a ****** rhetorical question at me.

So let me refresh your memory.

From 85 to 90, the last thing anyone wanted to be was punk. Punk was overrun by thugs and the worst of those guys were neo-nazis. Yes, actual NEO-NAZIS. To say you were punk was to encourage association with outright scum. A patron saint of political punk, Jello Biafra was actually beaten senseless by these ****s. Punk was absolutely DEAD to all free-thinking practitioners.

Just like how the blues and country were combined to make rock and roll, Alternative music of the late 80's and early nineties combined punk, funk, hip-hop, pop and metal to create new forms of music.

Nirvana combined pop lyricism with punk aggression - but slowed it a bit down to more of a metal speed to bring us their sound.

Was Bleach lo-fi? Yes. A lot of punk was lo-fi, too, so I understand your confusion.

Was Bleach angry? Yes. A lot of punk was angry, too, so I understand your confusion.

Was Bleach on an independent label and made on a shoestring budget? Yes. A lot of punk was inexpensively produced, too, so I understand your confusion.

Was Bleach a punk record? Hell no. Bleach used punk as an influence, sure. but it wasn't punk. Calling it punk is a disservice to it's legacy, and when it came out, making the comparison would have caused an argument about neo-nazism.

First off,I wasn't firing off anything, let alone a rhetorical question. I simply wanted to know what Bleach was classified as when it came out. I don't know if I got an answer for that yet.

I am confused by the punk = racism thing. I thought there was always that perceptive for some, but from the beginning of punk with Oi! punk. From what I understand of the CBGB and american punk I did not know this. So Thurston Moore following the Ramones or Basquiat to the punk/new wave scene club CBGB could of been confused for a Hitler youth club? Was Black Flag racist? I don't understand...

[Constellations]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Disclaimer - I am NOT saying Nirvana is punk. I am not jumping on either side of the disagreement.


I just want to know what elements do you think make a band "punk"?

My friend is a die hard Seether fan. Calling that a punk album would result in a punch to the face. If you think Seether is punk, you're just being ridiculous.

At any rate, not ever making the charts doesn't change that MF DOOM is a rapper. Your one point that doesn't exist is very weak.

You trying to explain what the punk sound actually consists of, is very very weak.

Have you listened to the music I've put on here? I'm a rock inspired musician. Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Breaking Benjamin, etc, were all my influential bands, does my music sound even remotely close to them? I'm a rocked based guy, but does that make my Metalcore/Progressive just a Rock band? Or just the rock genre? The answer, is neither.

[xdespisediconx]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

100% AGREE

[Merz]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Oh, and Nirvana wasn't punk. It just came from a scene that embraced punk angst and punk values when it came to commercialism, etc.

I personally don't like to put music in it's "category", because it seems the categories get too broad and people don't agree on what makes something belong to a certain group. The only categories I use are "music I like" and "music I dislike".

I've heard arguments that "punk" is the attitude, values, and anti-conformity of the movement. I've also heard people claim that punk is nothing but the sound (fast, short, simple, a few chords, etc.) It's probably a little of both (or a lot of both). Though Nirvana is not typically labeled as punk they can fit in there somewhere. I'm fine with just considering them as Rock and putting them in my "music I like" group.

[Los Angeles]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Hey man, for a guy who likes to give history lessons, I'm actually a little surprised at that you would fire such a ****** rhetorical question at me.

So let me refresh your memory.

From 85 to 90, the last thing anyone wanted to be was punk. Punk was overrun by thugs and the worst of those guys were neo-nazis. Yes, actual NEO-NAZIS. To say you were punk was to encourage association with outright scum. A patron saint of political punk, Jello Biafra was actually beaten senseless by these ****s. Punk was absolutely DEAD to all free-thinking practitioners.

Just like how the blues and country were combined to make rock and roll, Alternative music of the late 80's and early nineties combined punk, funk, hip-hop, pop and metal to create new forms of music.

Nirvana combined pop lyricism with punk aggression - but slowed it a bit down to more of a metal speed to bring us their sound.

Was Bleach lo-fi? Yes. A lot of punk was lo-fi, too, so I understand your confusion.

Was Bleach angry? Yes. A lot of punk was angry, too, so I understand your confusion.

Was Bleach on an independent label and made on a shoestring budget? Yes. A lot of punk was inexpensively produced, too, so I understand your confusion.

Was Bleach a punk record? Hell no. Bleach used punk as an influence, sure. but it wasn't punk. Calling it punk is a disservice to it's legacy, and when it came out, making the comparison would have caused an argument about neo-nazism.

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Oh, and Nirvana wasn't punk. It just came from a scene that embraced punk angst and punk values when it came to commercialism, etc.

Then what kind of album was Bleach LA?

[Los Angeles]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Oh, and Nirvana wasn't punk. It just came from a scene that embraced punk angst and punk values when it came to commercialism, etc.

[Los Angeles]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Sirius/XM had a really long Q&A with Jon Stewart hosting and featuring Dave Grohl, Krist Novoselic and Butch Vig. It lasted many hours.

And they shared many stories.

Butch Vig shared a story about throwing a party. Billy Corrigan was there. Anyway, Nevermind wasn't released yet and everybody is having a good time and all. And Butch decides to put on this new record that he'd been working on. Smells Like Teen Spirit is the first track. The entire party goes silent. They listen to the whole record in silence. After the record is over, twenty seconds go by and then someone says "play it again."

Butch rewinds the tape (yes, it was on tape) and the entire party listens to the whole record a second time.

Billy Corrigan approaches Butch Vig and tells him "This record is going to change music forever."

And it did.

[Merz]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

You need to tighten up your ears to what the punk sound actually is.

Disclaimer - I am NOT saying Nirvana is punk. I am not jumping on either side of the disagreement.


I just want to know what elements do you think make a band "punk"?

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

You're not right and check the charts. Clearly not made up. Nowhere on the charts. So go ahead and spend another 30 minutes searching through countless information for next strike. I can't wait to read it in a few days.

What charts? There isn't a punk rock billboard? Link?

At any rate, not ever making the charts doesn't change that MF DOOM is a rapper. Your one point that doesn't exist is very weak.