Nirvana's place in the world of music....

[Peck]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

No. That's college rock. Very soon to be known as indie rock. REM, Throwing Muses, Mojo Nixon, early Flaming Lips, Camper Van Beethoven, Violent Femmes and a whole slew of other bands learned lessons from punk and even referenced it directly, as the Dead Milkmen do here.

But they aren't punk.

One really clear thing about punk was that it was very anti-mainstream rock from the beginning. In the early days, if you were punk, you had to hate Zeppelin. Zeppelin went around in a giant jetliner and banged teenagers.

Punks hated that stuff.

But eventually the kids grew up to like BOTH the Ramones AND Zeppelin. Those kids blended punk and metal to make something that wasn't punk anymore.

Well I guess 1980 was not at the beginning.

[Los Angeles]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Honest question. Is this a punk rock song? If so, why? If not, why not?

No. That's college rock. Very soon to be known as indie rock. REM, Throwing Muses, Mojo Nixon, early Flaming Lips, Camper Van Beethoven, Violent Femmes and a whole slew of other bands learned lessons from punk and even referenced it directly, as the Dead Milkmen do here.

But they aren't punk.

One really clear thing about punk was that it was very anti-mainstream rock from the beginning. In the early days, if you were punk, you had to hate Zeppelin. Zeppelin went around in a giant jetliner and banged teenagers.

Punks hated that stuff.

But eventually the kids grew up to like BOTH the Ramones AND Zeppelin. Those kids blended punk and metal to make something that wasn't punk anymore.

EDIT - this of course is just my opinion. In the end of the end of the end, The Dead Milkmen were embraced by the punk scene and I had all their albums (and I had a mohawk). So I guess it's punk. But the Dead Milkmen were mostly brainy and funny. They were satirists, not pure practitioners and in my mind that puts them in the "college rock" mold with REM and CVB.

[Aw Heck]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

[avoidingtheclowns]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

and off topic, you're probably the first person I've come across that acted like a musical elitist and listed bands like breaking benjamin as an influence.

Speaking as a musical elitist, I completely agree. I'll expand on that shortly, but first I'd like to discuss why Deep Blue Something was the most important band of the 90s...

Were the Ramones around? Yeah, sure. But so was Donna Summer. That didn't make the late 80's the age of Disco.

Indeed, for 'twas the age of Billy Ocean.

[Peck]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Well, I know that Henry Rollins was sketched out and less active in the punk scene in the late 80's because that's what he told me. In person. To my face.

Like how I know what it's like to play at CBGB's because I played CBGB's.

All i've tried to do in this thread is share the perspective of a guy who was very active in the scene while it was happening.

Quote all you like, but if you weren't there, you really just have to take our word for it.

Punk was really in a bad way from 86-90. In such a bad way that it needed to be called something else in order for the good parts of its spirit to live on.

Were the Ramones around? Yeah, sure. But so was Donna Summer. That didn't make the late 80's the age of Disco.

[Peck]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Honest question. Is this a punk rock song? If so, why? If not, why not?

[Merz]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

In such a bad way that it needed to be called something else in order for the good parts of its spirit to live on.

I shouldn't speak for him but I think BillBradley is talking about punk as in the spirit. The name of the style might of been different but Nirvana was in that vein...or something like that.

Kind if like that saying "A Rose by any other name would still smell as sweet".

[Los Angeles]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Well, I know that Henry Rollins was sketched out and less active in the punk scene in the late 80's because that's what he told me. In person. To my face.

Like how I know what it's like to play at CBGB's because I played CBGB's.

All i've tried to do in this thread is share the perspective of a guy who was very active in the scene while it was happening.

Quote all you like, but if you weren't there, you really just have to take our word for it.

Punk was really in a bad way from 86-90. In such a bad way that it needed to be called something else in order for the good parts of its spirit to live on.

Were the Ramones around? Yeah, sure. But so was Donna Summer. That didn't make the late 80's the age of Disco.

[Merz]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Punk Music- A faster tempo of music with brighter riffing.

.

Ok, that's what I was looking for when I asked what you considered punk. You're on the "Punk is only the sound" side...which if I had to choose a side (like I said in another post I don't like to label) I would be more on the side of "Punk is the attitude of the song".

Hopefully I'm making sense here, but I would consider a song with the Punk attitude but sung like a normal rock song as closer to punk than a punk "sounding" song sung about rainbows and lollipops (just an example, not saying such a song exist).

and off topic, you're probably the first person I've come across that acted like a musical elitist and listed bands like breaking benjamin as an influence.

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

These quotes make me laugh.

I don't think Nirvana was NOT punk. I know they aren't. I know the punk sound. Nirvana had a punk-minded attitude with the rebellion and anarchy-like motives.

Punk Music- A faster tempo of music with brighter riffing.

Punk bands- Blink 182, Ramones, Dropkick Murphys, The Sex Pistols, Yellowcard, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, etc.

Does Nirvana sound like them? Yes or No

It's right there. That's as a musician, and highly intelligent within music.

I'm finished discussing this with you Bill.

...

None of those bands sound like the Clash, and the Clash are the only punk band that matters. So your only point still means nothing.

Not a single song or album made it to punk charts.

This is still nonsense, no punk billboard.

But you can debate with Cobain's words, not mine...

“Punk is musical freedom. It's saying, doing and playing what you want. In Webster's terms, 'nirvana' means freedom from pain, suffering and the external world, and that's pretty close to my definition of Punk Rock.” -Kurt Cobain

But I'm guessing you know more about Nirvana's sound than Cobain right?

[Constellations]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Constellations points

-as an amateur musician, I think Nirvana was rock not punk
-look at the punk rock charts

[B]Your opinion as an amateur musician means nothing

Nobody said anything about Seether. You are confused!

You have no points. If you do, type them instead of saying "I have already offered plenty."

These quotes make me laugh.

I don't think Nirvana was NOT punk. I know they aren't. I know the punk sound. Nirvana had a punk-minded attitude with the rebellion and anarchy-like motives.

Punk Music- A faster tempo of music with brighter riffing.

Punk bands- Blink 182, Ramones, Dropkick Murphys, The Sex Pistols, Yellowcard, Black Flag, Dead Kennedys, etc.

Does Nirvana sound like them? Yes or No

It's right there. That's as a musician, and highly intelligent within music.

I'm finished discussing this with you Bill.

...

[cdash]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

I thought you were done with this thread about 5 weeks ago?

I was, and I am. I'm done being serious in this thread. Now I'm just going to make sassy comments and antagonize you guys, because it seems to be incredibly easy to do

[Constellations]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

You know what, I am going to go through your comments and show you why "I don't understand." That was a nice way of telling you that it is impossible to disagree with you and have a convo about it because you are all over the place about non issues and can't simply bullet what your point is.

LA got a little chippy, but that's fine. He had clear points.

-Punk was dead, so there weren't punk artists during that time
-Punk was considered racist, so nobody wanted to be affiliated with it
-Punk was too violent because of the racism, running Black Flag away from what they created

So then I can retort,

-Punk wasn't dead, Ramones were touring
-If Punk was considered racist, why did Nirvana, SY, Dino & Ramones go on a punk tour?

and of course







Constellations points

-as an amateur musician, I think Nirvana was rock not punk
-look at the punk rock charts

Your opinion as an amateur musician means nothing and there is no Billboard punk chart.



Nobody said anything about Seether. You are confused!



I don't care about the sound, I care about the history. I never made a case about the sound. I clearly outlined why and how Nirvana became pioneers for mainstream punk.



This is ridiculous. Your music has nothing to do with anything. And you're a "rock based guy?" What does that mean? But do you notice you say that Nirvana and A&C are just rock bands, yet that doesn't make your music just rock. No, no. You are above that, metalcore/progressive.

You have no points. If you do, type them instead of saying "I have already offered plenty."

The ****ing points are right there in the quotes. You're just choosing not to read them.

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

Because you choose to have no idea what it means. Pathetic.

You know what, I am going to go through your comments and show you why "I don't understand." That was a nice way of telling you that it is impossible to disagree with you and have a convo about it because you are all over the place about non issues and can't simply bullet what your point is.

LA got a little chippy, but that's fine. He had clear points.

-Punk was dead, so there weren't punk artists during that time
-Punk was considered racist, so nobody wanted to be affiliated with it
-Punk was too violent because of the racism, running Black Flag away from what they created

So then I can retort,

-Punk wasn't dead, Ramones were touring
-If Punk was considered racist, why did Nirvana, SY, Dino & Ramones go on a punk tour?

and of course

Nirvana arguably knocked that door down, and then old geezers like me coat-tailed. - Punk legend Henry Rollins

His punk purism was a religion, but it was also a shtick, his version of showbiz. - Rolling Stone

The exhibit features rare and unseen artifacts and photography from the band, their crews and families. Nirvana: Taking Punk to the Masses -EMP Museum

Constellations points

-as an amateur musician, I think Nirvana was rock not punk
-look at the punk rock charts

Your opinion as an amateur musician means nothing and there is no Billboard punk chart.

My friend is a die hard Seether fan. Calling that a punk album would result in a punch to the face. If you think Seether is punk, you're just being ridiculous.

Nobody said anything about Seether. You are confused!

You trying to explain what the punk sound actually consists of, is very very weak.

I don't care about the sound, I care about the history. I never made a case about the sound. I clearly outlined why and how Nirvana became pioneers for mainstream punk.

Have you listened to the music I've put on here? I'm a rock inspired musician. Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Breaking Benjamin, etc, were all my influential bands, does my music sound even remotely close to them? I'm a rocked based guy, but does that make my Metalcore/Progressive just a Rock band? Or just the rock genre? The answer, is neither.

This is ridiculous. Your music has nothing to do with anything. And you're a "rock based guy?" What does that mean? But do you notice you say that Nirvana and A&C are just rock bands, yet that doesn't make your music just rock. No, no. You are above that, metalcore/progressive.

You have no points. If you do, type them instead of saying "I have already offered plenty."

[Since86]

Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....

I thought you were done with this thread about 5 weeks ago?