All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

[BlueNGold]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

You're missing the point, though. It doesn't have to do with how that particular player is doing. Most of them aren't aware and even if they would they probably wouldn't give a damn. It's about how those people think that the player in question is doing. Schandenfreude, after all, is an emotion that makes you feel good about yourself. Therefore, it's about how you define what "doing well" is and not about how the player in question defines it.

I don't derive any satisfaction from him playing poorly or well. I am not a fan and I am not a hater. I do find it interesting to see how a former Pacer starter and former all-star is playing. When he plays this poorly, I don't gather any joy from it. It's more curiousity and a little wonder. A bit fascinating in terms of the amount of money he's raking in versus his lack of production.

But I'm being serious that he's doing well. Financially he really hit the lotto in the NBA.

[Pacerized]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I don't derive any satisfaction from him playing poorly or well. I am not a fan and I am not a hater. I do find it interesting to see how a former Pacer starter and former all-star is playing. When he plays this poorly, I don't gather any joy from it. It's more curiousity and a little wonder. A bit fascinating in terms of the amount of money he's raking in versus his lack of production.

But I'm being serious that he's doing well. Financially he really hit the lotto in the NBA.

You can say it but I'm not buying it. If you didn't celebrate in the times Roy struggles you wouldn't point it out in the manner you do while remaining quite when he does well. You not only point it out but you always do so in an inflammatory manner trolling for a response from anyone who wants to see him do well just as you did in your last post. I know I'm only pointing out the obvious but you got what you wanted, you need to let it go.

[Nuntius]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I don't derive any satisfaction from him playing poorly or well. I am not a fan and I am not a hater. I do find it interesting to see how a former Pacer starter and former all-star is playing. When he plays this poorly, I don't gather any joy from it. It's more curiousity and a little wonder. A bit fascinating in terms of the amount of money he's raking in versus his lack of production.

But I'm being serious that he's doing well. Financially he really hit the lotto in the NBA.

I didn't mean to say that you derived any satisfaction from him playing poorly, though. I can see how you could think that this was the case, though. I started off by saying "them" and then switched over to "you" after the "yourself" part.

In any case, my intention wasn't to lump you in that category. We've disagreed about Roy a lot of times but you aren't one for schandenfreude. You mostly mention Roy when one of the posters who have defended Hibbert in the past says something about Lance. It's more of a self-defence mechanism than anything else. It's quite similar to what happened with Danny. You didn't have a particular problem with Danny per se. You had a problem with the posters (myself included) who proposed that Danny should start and Lance should be the 6th man because you interpreted it as a slight against Lance (even though it wasn't).

Honestly, I don't think that you hate any of the players that you've argued against in the past. You're just trying to defend Lance.

[Nuntius]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

You not only point it out but you always do so in an inflammatory manner trolling for a response from anyone who wants to see him do well just as you did in your last post.

To be fair, I think that this is mostly in response to the Lance thread. He feels that people who defended Roy in the past are trolling Lance in that thread so he's trolling them here. In any case, I don't think that he actually has anything against Roy.

[BlueNGold]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

To be fair, I think that this is mostly in response to the Lance thread. He feels that people who defended Roy in the past are trolling Lance in that thread so he's trolling them here. In any case, I don't think that he actually has anything against Roy.

There is a lot of truth to this post. But while I actually don't care much about how Roy plays now I also will not shy away from stating what I think is the truth about him and his game and it's not complementary. Also, I might get a little satisfaction about Roy's rebounding numbers but that has everything to do with criticism of Lance stealing them. IOW it's really not about Roy. He could play really solid ball otherwise and I wouldn't care much at all.

Also if Roy started cleaning glass after Lance left I wouldn't be upset. I would probably be happier than if he didn't because he would be a better player and we might have kept him. I literally would have admitted that Lance had stolen his rebounds.

[Nuntius]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Also, I might get a little satisfaction about Roy's rebounding numbers but that has everything to do with criticism of Lance stealing them.

This is another issue that you misunderstood, by the way. You thought that we were saying that Lance was stealing those rebounds because he is selfish. You thought that we meant that this was a bad thing. This isn't the case, though. Yes, Lance was absolutely stealing Roy's, David's, Ian's, Scola's (insert any Pacer big of that time). No, he didn't do it because of selfish reasons. He did it because it was our rebounding scheme. Our rebounding scheme instructed both of our bigs to block out their opponent (especially our Centers since they usually matched up with the opposition's best offensive rebounder) and both of our wings to crash the defensive boards instead of leaking out. And you know what? That rebounding scheme absolutely worked. We were an amazing rebounding team. People should have focused on the fact that our team was getting most of the rebounds instead of focusing on which one of our players got them.

The last two seasons have proved that all of this was due to our rebounding scheme, by the way. Lance averaged 7.2 RPG that season and he never came close to those numbers again. He averaged 4.5 RPG in Charlotte and he's averaging 2.7 RPG in LA with a team that has never been a particularly strong rebounding team because their starting C rarely blocks out. Lance is a great rebounder for his position and size but that doesn't change the fact that all of this was the result of an extremely good rebounding scheme that helped us win a crapload of games.

Adding to that last point, the 14-15 Pacers were #2 in rebounding despite their injuries. This year's team is #22 in rebounding despite being significantly healthier than last year's team. We don't have the same rebounding scheme anymore and it's hurting us.

[Rogco]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

This is another issue that you misunderstood, by the way. You thought that we were saying that Lance was stealing those rebounds because he is selfish. You thought that we meant that this was a bad thing. This isn't the case, though. Yes, Lance was absolutely stealing Roy's, David's, Ian's, Scola's (insert any Pacer big of that time). No, he didn't do it because of selfish reasons. He did it because it was our rebounding scheme. Our rebounding scheme instructed both of our bigs to block out their opponent (especially our Centers since they usually matched up with the opposition's best offensive rebounder) and both of our wings to crash the defensive boards instead of leaking out. And you know what? That rebounding scheme absolutely worked. We were an amazing rebounding team. People should have focused on the fact that our team was getting most of the rebounds instead of focusing on which one of our players got them.

The last two seasons have proved that all of this was due to our rebounding scheme, by the way. Lance averaged 7.2 RPG that season and he never came close to those numbers again. He averaged 4.5 RPG in Charlotte and he's averaging 2.7 RPG in LA with a team that has never been a particularly strong rebounding team because their starting C rarely blocks out. Lance is a great rebounder for his position and size but that doesn't change the fact that all of this was the result of an extremely good rebounding scheme that helped us win a crapload of games.

Adding to that last point, the 14-15 Pacers were #2 in rebounding despite their injuries. This year's team is #22 in rebounding despite being significantly healthier than last year's team. We don't have the same rebounding scheme anymore and it's hurting us.

Actually, the numbers tend to not back that up. The nba player tracking is down at the moment, but I'll link to the adjusted rebound rate for the 2013-2014 season. This number is adjusted for not just the rebounds a player gets, but essentially the rebounds team mates get due to blocking out. Roy was one of the worst centers in the league in rebounding / helping rebound. (note, this is only for defensive rebounds I believe.)

[Nuntius]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Actually, the numbers tend to not back that up. The nba player tracking is down at the moment, but I'll link to the adjusted rebound rate for the 2013-2014 season. This number is adjusted for not just the rebounds a player gets, but essentially the rebounds team mates get due to blocking out. Roy was one of the worst centers in the league in rebounding / helping rebound. (note, this is only for defensive rebounds I believe.)

I'd like to see that link. As far as I recall, both Roy and Robin Lopez in 13-14 had really high contested rebound rates. In other words, most of the rebounds they grabbed throughout that season were contested ones. Lance, PG, LaMarcus Aldridge and Nicolas Batum, on the other hand, had high uncontested rebound rates. Which again indicates that they benefitted from the fact that their Centers did a great job blocking out.

[BlueNGold]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

This is another issue that you misunderstood, by the way. You thought that we were saying that Lance was stealing those rebounds because he is selfish. You thought that we meant that this was a bad thing. This isn't the case, though. Yes, Lance was absolutely stealing Roy's, David's, Ian's, Scola's (insert any Pacer big of that time). No, he didn't do it because of selfish reasons. He did it because it was our rebounding scheme. Our rebounding scheme instructed both of our bigs to block out their opponent (especially our Centers since they usually matched up with the opposition's best offensive rebounder) and both of our wings to crash the defensive boards instead of leaking out. And you know what? That rebounding scheme absolutely worked. We were an amazing rebounding team. People should have focused on the fact that our team was getting most of the rebounds instead of focusing on which one of our players got them.

The last two seasons have proved that all of this was due to our rebounding scheme, by the way. Lance averaged 7.2 RPG that season and he never came close to those numbers again. He averaged 4.5 RPG in Charlotte and he's averaging 2.7 RPG in LA with a team that has never been a particularly strong rebounding team because their starting C rarely blocks out. Lance is a great rebounder for his position and size but that doesn't change the fact that all of this was the result of an extremely good rebounding scheme that helped us win a crapload of games.

Adding to that last point, the 14-15 Pacers were #2 in rebounding despite their injuries. This year's team is #22 in rebounding despite being significantly healthier than last year's team. We don't have the same rebounding scheme anymore and it's hurting us.

No, I actually agree with most of your post. Vogel is on record that the bigs sacrificed for the wings:

"A lot of times, (the bigs), they're sacrificing themselves to wipe out the best rebounders on the other team while the guards come back and get the numbers. "It's a sacrifice," Vogel continued, "more than anything."

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2014/01/28/pacers-compete-with-each-other-for-rebounds/4988905/

But let's be clear about this. You say "Lance was absolutely stealing Roy's, David's, etc." rebounds and I completely disagree. You don't steal something from a player who is trying to give it to you. As you say, that's part of the scheme. There wasn't any stealing going on.

ALSO, Roy Hibbert has never proven he can clean glass. That may or may not be the reason Vogel had the bigs block out instead of hammer the glass. Personally I think Roy is too slow to do it, so they had Paul and especially Lance move in there and grab the boards.

So, I am saying that a) Lance did was he was told. He did NOT steal rebounds. b) Roy Hibbert has never proven that he can be a good rebounder. He's a big guy who can block out like a bench scrub, but he's not proven he has the athleticism and nose for the ball to clean glass.

Again, not hating on Roy. Just calling it as I see it.

[BlueNGold]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

BTW, when someone says a player is stealing another player's rebounds, especially a guard, it implies a number of things. It implies he's a bad team mate. It implies he's not coachable because certainly the coach has told the player to do something else on the floor (e.g. guard the perimeter). It implies he's selfish and looking for stats instead of being a team player. Yet this lie continues to be told when even in the same breath people will say it was part of the scheme for him to grab the rebounds. I guess I just don't get it. This fuels both of these threads btw.

[Rogco]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I'd like to see that link. As far as I recall, both Roy and Robin Lopez in 13-14 had really high contested rebound rates. In other words, most of the rebounds they grabbed throughout that season were contested ones. Lance, PG, LaMarcus Aldridge and Nicolas Batum, on the other hand, had high uncontested rebound rates. Which again indicates that they benefitted from the fact that their Centers did a great job blocking out.

Here it is:

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/rebounding/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&PlayerPosition=C&sort=REB_CHANCE_PCT_ADJ&dir=1

Roy Hibbert is 51st amongst all centers that played a minimum of 1,000 minutes in adjusted rebound percentage. It's an adjusted percentage because it takes into account deferred rebounds (aka, when you are blocking out and someone else grabs the rebound). Note that he was second in the league in deferred rebounding chances, backing up what you said about the scheme. Roy also struggled with contested rebounds (17th in the league) and I think only 3 people played more minutes and had less contested rebounds than Roy (who played center, according to NBA.com)

[JimmyJames]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Glad you posted a quote. Frank had said that a few times out of frustration. You could watch the Pacers and see this happening. It was by design. People under estimate how good Vogel is. He really designs around players strengths. Instead of having Roy and West chase down boards, he designed us to be a wing rebounding team.
With the slow pace ball we played this made sense. And when you have a wing like Lance that will mad dog for the board (he wants the ball in his hands) this system worked well.
Vogel always had Hill go over screens and funnel the ball handler straight into Roy. This help Roy on defense and made him look like a better defender.
Vogel played to Hibberts strengths, a sign of a great coach. Hibbert was our last line of defense. All defenders tried to get their man into Roy.

Did we need to move on from Hibbert and West? Yea, you betcha. Did Vogel make the most of what he had to work with? Yea you betcha. Frank Vogel is one of the best coaches in the NBA.
Roy Hibbert is a perfect example of great coaching. As is Lance. Both of those guys were a product of great coaching and a great system.

I wanted Roy to have a good season for the Pacers. No matter how much I wanted him gone, it doesn't make me happy he is not playing well. I think he gave is heart to Indiana. The most talent Roy has is being over 7 foot tall. He really is not that talented. But for a period of time on the Pacers he really looked like he had some talent.

The league figured out how to deal with Roy, once that happened, it was over. He was exposed. There was nothing they could do about it. The fans turning on Rou sure didn't help. I looks at Hibberts Instagram one time. The only time. I seen Pacer fans begging him to kill himself. Pacer fans, leaving horrible comments like that.
Roy gets way to much heat for his last year with he Pacers. We needed a big, Portland was going to take Roy, and we need him at the time.

If Roy would have went to LA and averaged 15 and 15 fans would have complained about how well he was doing. If Roy went to LA and had a awful season fans would complain about how bad Roy is. Either way Roy looses.
Folks need to let it go. If I met Roy in person I would shake his hand and thank him for some great times to be a Pacer fan.

[Peck]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

This thread needs some Slade

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

See above where I work with it, but you again want to say doing something with a component of a statistic is the same as lumping everything into an aggregate and doing the same thing.

I mean, do you REALLY want to put forth the argument that Roy got worse as a rim defender because he is working on being a defender against long-range shots? Or do you not care that we're 3000+ posts into an argument about Roy as a rim defender but your current statistic depends on him improving from elsewhere to cover up the decline in the original position?

To be honest Bill, I don't know what his monthly numbers were. "If he that last month's DefFG% was better than the rest of the season, then he was trending as getting better."

I just think it's awfully coincidental that you offered up the "it's complicated" line right after your oppoFG% became useless. You thought the argument was pretty straight forward when one month of data backed up your point.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

No, I actually agree with most of your post. Vogel is on record that the bigs sacrificed for the wings:

"A lot of times, (the bigs), they're sacrificing themselves to wipe out the best rebounders on the other team while the guards come back and get the numbers. "It's a sacrifice," Vogel continued, "more than anything."

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2014/01/28/pacers-compete-with-each-other-for-rebounds/4988905/

But let's be clear about this. You say "Lance was absolutely stealing Roy's, David's, etc." rebounds and I completely disagree. You don't steal something from a player who is trying to give it to you. As you say, that's part of the scheme. There wasn't any stealing going on.

ALSO, Roy Hibbert has never proven he can clean glass. That may or may not be the reason Vogel had the bigs block out instead of hammer the glass. Personally I think Roy is too slow to do it, so they had Paul and especially Lance move in there and grab the boards.

So, I am saying that a) Lance did was he was told. He did NOT steal rebounds. b) Roy Hibbert has never proven that he can be a good rebounder. He's a big guy who can block out like a bench scrub, but he's not proven he has the athleticism and nose for the ball to clean glass.

Again, not hating on Roy. Just calling it as I see it.

Interestingly enough, BnG leaves out the prior quote.

Lance steals them all from Roy anyway," Vogel said

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2014/01/28/pacers-compete-with-each-other-for-rebounds/4988905/

The guy who relies on "Well Boyle and Monteith said......" is now openly arguing against what the actual coach said.