Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

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  • aamcguy
    Member
    • Mar 2012
    • 4134

    Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

    Originally posted by Dece
    The deepest team in the league has never been how I've ever heard someone describe any of the NBA champions, ever. I've heard best starting 5, I've heard best player, I've heard about the Big 3, Hall of Fame duos... never has anyone said, at least within my ear shot, "that team won it all because they were the deepest team in NBA."
    Last season our starting 5 was one of the top units in the league. And that was with either Collison or Hill. With Collison, it led the league in 5 man +/-. With Hill, they had an even better +/- per minute. They kept what worked and attempted to work over the bench. Keeping Collison or Hill on the bench wouldn't work because our bench was still terrible last year.

    Maybe you don't agree with what they decided to do, but they're doing it in an acceptable way of how you view great teams.
    Time for a new sig.

    Comment

    • aamcguy
      Member
      • Mar 2012
      • 4134

      Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

      Originally posted by vnzla81
      I call bs on that.
      That's valid, but there are many who have a higher opinion of Ian than you do. I am one of those.
      Time for a new sig.

      Comment

      • Dece
        5Y $150 for Myles
        • Oct 2007
        • 3867

        Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

        Originally posted by aamcguy
        Last season our starting 5 was one of the top units in the league. And that was with either Collison or Hill. With Collison, it led the league in 5 man +/-. With Hill, they had an even better +/- per minute. They kept what worked and attempted to work over the bench. Keeping Collison or Hill on the bench wouldn't work because our bench was still terrible last year.

        Maybe you don't agree with what they decided to do, but they're doing it in an acceptable way of how you view great teams.
        And that's exactly why this off season was so frustrating. We have FIVE really good players. Hill, George, Hibbert, West, Granger. We have 5. We have the assets to increase this to 6. With that 6th player, a difference maker, we would have had a shot at the title. Especially important for us to have SIX because one of our five, Hibbert, can only play 30 good minutes a night, instead of the 40 you can get out of your usual top 5. Guys, it's not that I think we have a bad team, it's never been that, I've said over and over, we're good, we're a 50 win club. But without another difference maker we WILL NOT win a title. We had SO many assets this off season to acquire one with, or to give up one of our 5 to get 2 back (5-1+2=SIX!), and instead we said no, this 5 is enough when it very clearly is not.

        Comment

        • aamcguy
          Member
          • Mar 2012
          • 4134

          Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

          Originally posted by Dece
          And that's exactly why this off season was so frustrating. We have FIVE really good players. Hill, George, Hibbert, West, Granger. We have 5. We have the assets to increase this to 6. With that 6th player, a difference maker, we would have had a shot at the title. Especially important for us to have SIX because one of our five, Hibbert, can only play 30 good minutes a night, instead of the 40 you can get out of your usual top 5. Guys, it's not that I think we have a bad team, it's never been that, I've said over and over, we're good, we're a 50 win club. But without another difference maker we WILL NOT win a title. We had SO many assets this off season to acquire one with, or to give up one of our 5 to get 2 back (5-1+2=SIX!), and instead we said no, this 5 is enough when it very clearly is not.
          I think you're being unfair. How can we say that the 5 are or are not enough when the 5 haven't played together this year? Regardless of what they could or should have done in the offseason, we did what we did. Until we see the team we put together actually play together, I don't think it is too much to ask to be patient and enjoy the good that they bring.

          I think the acquisitions of Green and Ian look a lot better when our true starting wings are out there. I think the whole bench looks better when you have both Green and Stephenson as bench players. As of right now, when that unit is together they're playing with a guy who failed to fill in as a starter. Just give them time to play together and then make your assessment before pronouncing doom.
          Last edited by aamcguy; 12-18-2012, 08:47 PM.
          Time for a new sig.

          Comment

          • Nuntius
            Member
            • Jan 2012
            • 35969

            Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

            Originally posted by Dece
            The deepest team in the league has never been how I've ever heard someone describe any of the NBA champions, ever. I've heard best starting 5, I've heard best player, I've heard about the Big 3, Hall of Fame duos... never has anyone said, at least within my ear shot, "that team won it all because they were the deepest team in NBA."
            So, the Mavs weren't the deepest team in the league when they won it? Wasn't it Barea (their back up PG) that was able to cut through Los Angeles' and Miami's defense like swiss cheese?
            Originally posted by IrishPacer
            Empty vessels make the most noise.

            Comment

            • Dece
              5Y $150 for Myles
              • Oct 2007
              • 3867

              Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

              Barea game 1 (L) 1-8 in 18 minutes
              Barea game 2 (W) 2-7 in 14 minutes
              Barea game 3 (L) 2-8 in 19 minutes
              Barea game 4 (W) 3-9 in 22 minutes
              Barea game 5 (W) 6-11 in 26 minutes
              Barea game 6 (W) 7-12 in 30 minutes

              So the guy had 4 bad games and 2 good ones, not sure I'd call that slicing it like butter -- also of note, JET was playing 6th man behind Deshawn Stevenson to start, then 6th man behind Barea in the last 2 games... essentially Barea WAS their 6th best player, Deshawn isn't that good. In game 6 their top 6 players played 30+ minutes, Ian Deshawn and Brian Cardinal played 10-12 minutes. I'd say the Mavs had 6 difference makers, and 3 warm bodies. Same as my argument would expect.

              Edit: those numbers are his shooting, he shot 1 for 8, etc.
              Last edited by Dece; 12-18-2012, 08:51 PM.

              Comment

              • Eleazar
                Member
                • Jun 2010
                • 13839

                Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                Originally posted by Dece
                And that's exactly why this off season was so frustrating. We have FIVE really good players. Hill, George, Hibbert, West, Granger. We have 5. We have the assets to increase this to 6. With that 6th player, a difference maker, we would have had a shot at the title. Especially important for us to have SIX because one of our five, Hibbert, can only play 30 good minutes a night, instead of the 40 you can get out of your usual top 5. Guys, it's not that I think we have a bad team, it's never been that, I've said over and over, we're good, we're a 50 win club. But without another difference maker we WILL NOT win a title. We had SO many assets this off season to acquire one with, or to give up one of our 5 to get 2 back (5-1+2=SIX!), and instead we said no, this 5 is enough when it very clearly is not.
                You want a 6th difference maker, look no further than Lance.

                you want someone who can play 18 minutes a game and adequately replace Roy, I give you Ian, who if he didn't have hands of stone would be a competent starter.

                So what the hell are you looking for? A bench that is full of starter level players? I have bad news for you, those types of benches don't exist. Some teams might have one player, a couple might be lucky with two, but that is all.

                See it takes more than just a great starting five. It also takes a good bench. What exactly defines a good bench for your team varies from team to team. No team wins a championship without a bench you can rely on. You don't hear about it for the same reason ESPN gushes all over Brady, but ignore that he probably has one of the best offensive lines ever. Without Battier the Heat do not win the championship last year. Battier is far from a sexy name for a sixth difference maker. What this team had last year was not a reliable bench, that was why we lost in the playoffs. Really at the moment we aren't far from a reliable bench. We have the true center we needed. We have a reliable defender. We just need that difference maker. Luckily he is already on the team, just for injury reasons he is starting instead of coming off the bench. Who knows once he is coming off the bench Green goes from being a disappointment, but acceptable 9th or 10th man to being what we hoped he would be, offense off the bench.

                Comment

                • Dece
                  5Y $150 for Myles
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 3867

                  Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                  What are you talking about, everyone does and has loved Battier for a long time. He's long been regarded as an elite defender, glue guy, and difference maker.

                  Gonna have to see a lot more from Lance before he's a difference maker - though I hope you're right, I hope he's the next DWade.

                  Comment

                  • Dece
                    5Y $150 for Myles
                    • Oct 2007
                    • 3867

                    Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                    The Dallas Mavericks 2010-2011 game 6 best players: 204 minutes played. The rest of their roster: 36 minutes played split almost even between 3 guys.

                    It doesn't take a good bench. It takes a handful of difference making players.

                    Comment

                    • aamcguy
                      Member
                      • Mar 2012
                      • 4134

                      Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                      Originally posted by Dece
                      Barea game 1 (L) 1-8 in 18 minutes
                      Barea game 2 (W) 2-7 in 14 minutes
                      Barea game 3 (L) 2-8 in 19 minutes
                      Barea game 4 (W) 3-9 in 22 minutes
                      Barea game 5 (W) 6-11 in 26 minutes
                      Barea game 6 (W) 7-12 in 30 minutes

                      So the guy had 4 bad games and 2 good ones, not sure I'd call that slicing it like butter -- also of note, JET was playing 6th man behind Deshawn Stevenson to start, then 6th man behind Barea in the last 2 games... essentially Barea WAS their 6th best player, Deshawn isn't that good. In game 6 their top 6 players played 30+ minutes, Ian Deshawn and Brian Cardinal played 10-12 minutes. I'd say the Mavs had 6 difference makers, and 3 warm bodies. Same as my argument would expect.

                      Edit: those numbers are his shooting, he shot 1 for 8, etc.
                      In the same post you said Barea only had 2 games out of 6 where he was important and that Barea was one of 6 difference makers. It can't be both.

                      For what it's worth, Barea was the 7th most used player in the Mavs/Lakers sweep and the 6th most used player in the Mavs/Heat game. The only difference between the two was that Peja Stojakovic didn't really play in the Finals. So they had 7 guys, and Stevenson was the 8th player barely trailiing Barea for 7th and 6th most minutes.

                      They had a deep bench. You don't think having a deep bench saved the oldest team in the NBA some energy so they could play longer minutes in the Finals?
                      Time for a new sig.

                      Comment

                      • Eleazar
                        Member
                        • Jun 2010
                        • 13839

                        Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                        Originally posted by Dece
                        What are you talking about, everyone does and has loved Battier for a long time. He's long been regarded as an elite defender, glue guy, and difference maker.
                        Then I didn't understand what you meant by difference maker, and am even more confused as what you are asking for. As you said he is a glue guy. He does one or two things extremely well, but it would take a lot more than Battier to make a difference with our bench.

                        Comment

                        • Dece
                          5Y $150 for Myles
                          • Oct 2007
                          • 3867

                          Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                          Originally posted by aamcguy
                          In the same post you said Barea only had 2 games out of 6 where he was important and that Barea was one of 6 difference makers. It can't be both.

                          For what it's worth, Barea was the 7th most used player in the Mavs/Lakers sweep and the 6th most used player in the Mavs/Heat game. The only difference between the two was that Peja Stojakovic didn't really play in the Finals. So they had 7 guys, and Stevenson was the 8th player barely trailiing Barea for 7th and 6th most minutes.

                          They had a deep bench. You don't think having a deep bench saved the oldest team in the NBA some energy so they could play longer minutes in the Finals?
                          It can be both, he was their 6th best player, he made a difference in two games, making him a difference maker. If your 6th best player made a difference in 100% of games, he wouldn't be your 6th best player, he'd probably be your first or second. You could argue no, he was their 7th best player because Deshawn or Peja were starting over him, but really Deshawn was being used like Inferno used to get used for the Nuggets -- he'd start, but only play around 15 minutes.

                          Comment

                          • Nuntius
                            Member
                            • Jan 2012
                            • 35969

                            Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                            Originally posted by Dece
                            Barea game 1 (L) 1-8 in 18 minutes
                            Barea game 2 (W) 2-7 in 14 minutes
                            Barea game 3 (L) 2-8 in 19 minutes
                            Barea game 4 (W) 3-9 in 22 minutes
                            Barea game 5 (W) 6-11 in 26 minutes
                            Barea game 6 (W) 7-12 in 30 minutes
                            He also had 3, 1, 1, 4, 5 and 5 assists.

                            Regardless of his number, he was crucial in that game 5. He was a big part of why they won. Tyson was as well. They were their difference makers.

                            The thing with difference makers of that kind is quite simple, though. They become difference makers à propos. That means that they weren't always difference makers. Their play made them difference makers. They stepped up on that role. That's exactly what Barea did.
                            Originally posted by IrishPacer
                            Empty vessels make the most noise.

                            Comment

                            • Dece
                              5Y $150 for Myles
                              • Oct 2007
                              • 3867

                              Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                              Anyway, this is getting awfully specific and I'm not sure any of you are arguing that your 7-15 guys are the ones you need to worry about.

                              My point is your top 3-6 players are who matter. Is someone really arguing against that, or are you trying to find possibly, maybe, arguably one circumstance where it could be viewed that it wasn't the case...even if they were deep, do people describe them as the deepest? Did they win because they had Tyson, JET, Kidd, and Dirk, or because they were the deepest team in the entire league?
                              Last edited by Dece; 12-18-2012, 09:17 PM.

                              Comment

                              • purdue101
                                Member
                                • May 2004
                                • 1076

                                Re: Thunder/Pacers discussed Harden deal

                                Originally posted by vnzla81
                                Signing a player that was drafted five years ago and has not done anything since been drafted to a long term deal is a bad decision, trading a good backup PG with value for a career backup center and giving that player a long term deal is a bad decision.
                                I'm going to quote you Vnzla word for word here. This is what you said directly AFTER the Mahinmi trade, AFTER the Green signing, and AFTER the DJ singing - "Im loving our front office, this is what a front office is supposed to do."

                                Don't act like you saw our bench problems written all over the wall b/c you were all over the bandwagon sir

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