The Official "Fire Jim O'Brien!" Thread

[Unclebuck]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090101/SPORTS04/901010398/1088/SPORTS04&template=printart

Can Pacers improve mental toughness in 2009?

By Mike Wells
mike.wells@indystar.com

The Indiana Pacers see themselves as being several late-game miscues and key injuries from hovering around the .500 mark.

Some on the outside see a team with its worst record at the end of December since the 1988-89 season, when they wrapped up the calendar year 5-22.

The Pacers (10-21) take a four-game losing streak into Friday's game at the New York Knicks.

Fingers usually start pointing as the losses mount, often in the direction of the coach, which helps explain why six already have been fired around the NBA this season.

The Pacers say coach Jim O'Brien can't be blamed for their lack of execution and mental toughness in key moments of close games.

"That's not fair because that's rarely the case," forward Danny Granger said. "In the NBA, you have so many coaching changes. It's easier to put it on the coach when a lot of times it's the players. That's how the situation is here. It's the players, not the coach."

O'Brien said earlier that he is not worried about his job status because he wasn't expected to immediately lead the Pacers to 50 victories when he was hired in May 2007. Team president Larry Bird praised O'Brien's preparation and desire to improve the team last weekend.

Support from management, however, hasn't softened what has happened so far.

"Obviously it's tough on all of us, and I think he's done a pretty good job considering the circumstances," forward Jeff Foster said. "(Thirty-one) games where you're coming down to the wire and we're just making mistakes that the coaching staff has coached us not to make. We're having mental breakdowns.

"He's doing as well as can be expected, trying to stay positive and reinforce the things we're messing up on."

O'Brien doesn't easily accept losing, regardless of the opponent or circumstances. His postgame news conferences are engaging and personable when the Pacers win. His responses are usually short and bland when they lose.

O'Brien has remained detailed in his preparation. He often puts players through lengthy film sessions before practicing after losses. He treats game-day shootarounds like regular practices, meaning players tape up and scrimmage.

"Every loss is difficult until you have a chance to break down the video and look at what has happened and then you figure out how you can improve and what your teaching plan is going to be for the next practice," O'Brien said. "You get on with your life and you forget about what happened in the past."

The Pacers' effort, a key element that kept many fans away from Conseco Fieldhouse the past couple of years, can't be questioned.

They have beaten Houston, Boston and the Los Angeles Lakers. Only six of their 21 losses have been by more than 10 points. Their past four losses have been by a total of 12 points.

It's how they lose -- a league-high nine double-digit blown leads -- and who beat them that cause concern.

"I think this is a great opportunity to help a franchise turn things around," O'Brien said. "I think we're headed in the right direction and I believe there will be dramatic improvements throughout 2009. I think my whole focus on an hourly basis is to make sure that happens."

Saturday's game at 6 p.m.

The Pacers moved up their game Saturday against Sacramento to 6 p.m. so fans wouldn't miss the Indianapolis Colts' playoff game that starts at 8 p.m.

[Brad8888]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

In light of the results so far, the team is being prepared correctly for most games. We play well enough to win nearly every game. Good job by O'Brien and his staff on that front.

What is not being done is a rotation of players with a higher level of recognition by the coaches of which players are actually playing well at a given point in the game, and not just substituting according to a set formula. This is often difficult to balance with the need for going deeper into the bench on a consistent basis.

Also, during games there needs to be a better sense on the part of the coaching staff of when things are getting out of control and why, with better timing of timeouts and any associated substitutions. As our players get gassed, they tend to make more mental errors and play with more of a sense of desperation. The players are also becoming less confident and more tentative at times as our streak has continued, and understandably so.

In a nutshell, we have a good coaching staff for game preparation. What we need for getting over the hump is a coaching staff that can manage substitutions and call timeouts for the purposes of controlling our players better and changing game momentum.

We have been spoiled over the years with Larry Brown, Larry Bird / (Rick Carlisle), and Rick Carlisle himself who were good both at game preparation and game management. Control freaks? Yes. Was it the time for each to go when they did? Yes. Do we need someone like them to rebuild more effectively than we currently seem to be? I believe so. Who would that be? That would be a tough one to answer. Best candidate as a former Pacer? If he would come out of broadcasting (which I doubt), Clark Kellogg has a thorough understanding of the game, which is what leads to his effectiveness as a broadcaster. I believe that our exposure to Clark over the years has enhanced the understanding of basketball both in our state and across the nation from both his Pacers and his NCAA broadcasts. Would he want to become a coach? Unlikely at this point, and if he did he might choose THE Ohio State University, his alma mater.

Will O'Brien last here? Likely. Will we continue our Groundhog Day performances? Hopefully not. Can we win more games than we have? Without a doubt! Go Pacers!!!!!!!!

[Bball]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

I've always been of the belief if you have a 'talent deficit' speeding up the game is the last thing you want to do. I'm seeing comments like the above where people are saying that an uptempo game is their only chance to win. So which is it?

That said, I don't care how much of the shot clock you use as long as you get a good shot AND that you play the situation (IOW sometimes I DO care how much of the shot clock you use). If you have a lead that is starting to dwindle, you don't want to allow an opposing team to totally grab the momentum by wasting a possession and taking a quick shot... It also doesn't hurt just to burn some clock in that situation. You don't want steamrolled. Value each possession and understand the game situation. I don't think we always do a good job of that.

...and play defense....

[Jonathan]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

Larry Bird.

That would make sense but is Bird capable to handle both positions right now this early in career as a GM? I say NO!

[Justin Tyme]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

Larry Bird.

I'd love to see Bird have to coach the team he has assembled... just like Zeke had to with the Knicks! We all know how that turned out.


For those that have forgotten or don't know, Bird basically let Carlisle coach the offense and Dick Harter coach the defense. Bird said numerous times over the years they did the coaching. He was successful as a coach because of it.

Bird will never coach again, and my guess is after his GM days with the Pacers are done he'll never be a GM again either.

[Unclebuck]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

I am considering a in depth post about why I think JOB is a good coach - and I still might get around to it. Really though I think this is all I need to say. O'Brien is the one who basically cut and got rid of Glenn Robinson while in Philly - he pretty much ended his career. I don't think anything more needs to be said.

Really though the fact that JOB is the primary reason JT isn't playing this season - that is all the evidence I need that O'Brien is an excellent coach. Coach will always have a special place in my heart for ushering Jamaal out the door.

[Brad8888]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

UB,

I generally agree with you on most things Pacers (no proof here yet due to my short tenure as a posting member) based on my longtime reading of your postings when I came here as a lurker for years. Respectfully, I would submit the following for consideration:

What about the legions of season ticketholders who demanded of the Pacers that both JO and JT had to go no matter what during focus groups, complaints to ticket reps, and negotiating ticket deals for this season that went on prior to the end of last season? Do you really believe that OB is the primary reason that JT is not playing? There is a remarkable similarity (on the court) between the late game offensive play of Jarrett Jack and what we saw from Jamaal not long before he was benched. At times, it works for Jarrett, just like at times it worked for Jamaal. I believe that OB was forced to stop playing JT due to pressure from TPTB, not of his own volition, and that the player who most embodies the same offensive tendencies that Jamaal had is Jack, which is why he is used as our game finishing point guard despite his penchant for making mental mistakes, especially in pressure situations.

[Unclebuck]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

UB,

What about the legions of season ticketholders who demanded of the Pacers that both JO and JT had to go no matter what during focus groups, complaints to ticket reps, and negotiating ticket deals for this season that went on prior to the end of last season?
Do you really believe that OB is the primary reason that JT is not playing?

There is a remarkable similarity (on the court) between the late game offensive play of Jarrett Jack and what we saw from Jamaal not long before he was benched. At times, it works for Jarrett, just like at times it worked for Jamaal. I believe that OB was forced to stop playing JT due to pressure from TPTB, not of his own volition, and that the player who most embodies the same offensive tendencies that Jamaal had is Jack, which is why he is used as our game finishing point guard despite his penchant for making mental mistakes, especially in pressure situations.

Let me address each of your points -I think O'Brien is the primary reason but certainly not the only rason JT isn't playing. The other reasons being what you site and Bird

I can see where you are coming from comparing Jack and Tinsley - however, they are vastly different players. Tinsley has point guard skills, Jack does not. Jack plays defense Jamaal does not. Jack plays hard all the time Jamaal does not. Jack plays hurt, JT does not. They are vastly different players. Also Jack is a backup. - Overall I don't see any simarities between the two

[Justin Tyme]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

I am considering a in depth post about why I think JOB is a good coach - and I still might get around to it. Really though I think this is all I need to say. O'Brien is the one who basically cut and got rid of Glenn Robinson while in Philly - he pretty much ended his career. I don't think anything more needs to be said.

Really though the fact that JOB is the primary reason JT isn't playing this season - that is all the evidence I need that O'Brien is an excellent coach. Coach will always have a special place in my heart for ushering Jamaal out the door.

I would truly hope the criteria of being a good coach is more than how JO'B has dealt with Robinson and Tinsley. That's like saying Zeke was a good coach b/c how he handled players by buying them out.

The Big Dawg probably thanks O'Brien for his leaving Philly where he went on to be able to be on a championship Spurs team and wears a championship ring.

[Since86]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

JOb being the main reason why JT isn't playing? Come on, you really can't believe that.

After watching the single worst performance of a player during the PHO game, and then Jamaal starting and playing large mins the two games after, then getting a non-supension suspsion, only to start and play 35mins the next night tells me all I need to know about JOb and his discipline with JT.

With Bird cleaning house in regards to other players with discipline problems, or just needing to get out of Indy in general, how you think he didn't pull the plug confuses me.

For all the feel good quotes Jim had when he was hired on about earning playing time, and how he wasn't gonna deal with bad behavior on/off the court, he sure hasn't lived up to it. With him playing JT after PHO, with no recourse other than a non-suspension suspension, and finding out JO wasn't practicing, while starting and playing shows he's all talk.

If we set up a list for coaches and ranked them, he's definately at the lower end of spectrum.

[Jay@Section12]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

Good grief.

I can't wait for the Pacers to hire a coach that UB doesn't agree with 100% of the time. ( )

Just to throw a tangent, here's my ranking of all-time Pacers coaches.

1. Slick
2. Brownie (not that I liked him, but you can't argue with his success)
3. Dr. Jack
4. McKinney
5. Bo Hill
6. Harter/Carlisle (we all know Bird didn't really coach them.)
7. O'Brien
8. Staverman
9. Carlisle, solo
10. Versace
11. Zeke
12. Irvine

Come on, this is the organization where Versace is not in the "bottom two". It is easy to throw O'Brien in the middle of the pack when you look at the bottom four or five coaches in team history.

O'Brien is neither the problem nor the solution. Which is actually true for a large number of NBA coaches. But some of those guys never get a decent roster (Wittman, Randy) and others are overrated because they've generally had good rosters (Johnson, Avery).

[count55]

Re: When will jim O'brien be held accountable?

Good grief.

I can't wait for the Pacers to hire a coach that UB doesn't agree with 100% of the time. ( )

Just to throw a tangent, here's my ranking of all-time Pacers coaches.

1. Slick
2. Brownie (not that I liked him, but you can't argue with his success)
3. Dr. Jack
4. McKinney
5. Bo Hill
6. Harter/Carlisle (we all know Bird didn't really coach them.)
7. O'Brien
8. Staverman
9. Carlisle, solo
10. Versace
11. Zeke
12. Irvine

Come on, this is the organization where Versace is not in the "bottom two". It is easy to throw O'Brien in the middle of the pack when you look at the bottom four or five coaches in team history.

O'Brien is neither the problem nor the solution. Which is actually true for a large number of NBA coaches. But some of those guys never get a decent roster (Wittman, Randy) and others are overrated because they've generally had good rosters (Johnson, Avery).

1. Brown
2. Slick
3. Bird
4(tie) Carlisle/Ramsay/Obie
7. McKinney
8. Bo Hill
9. Staverman
10. Versace
11. Irvine
12. Thomas

(Irvine never had any talent, but was horrible. Zeke actually destroyed talent.)

[pianoman]

A piece of my mind

I had to get it off my chest. I like JOb and everything, and think he's a decent coach, but i don't know how much more i can take of him being our head coach. I really don't like the idea of firing a coach during the season, but i think that if this team keeps losing games that are so close, then a change is needed on the bench.

I really liked Avery Johnson in Dallas. Ever since he was fired, I wanted him to come to indiana. I think his style of play is exciting to watch, and defensive minded. I'm not freaking out here calling for obrien's head, what i'm saying is I think AJ would be a much better fit for this team. Anybody agree?

[tora tora]

Re: A piece of my mind

There's no point, this team is far from being a "contender" regardless of who's coaching. Let Jim finish his job.

[MillerTime]

Re: A piece of my mind

I agree, im not happy with JOB at all, but we have to think about how long his contract is remaining and how much money he is due? Does anyone know?

I also like Avery, im totally for getting him. But I think it all depends on JOB's contract, the Pacers organization isnt going to through money around for coaches. Avery's style would be would be totally different from JOB's. Avery is a defensive minded coach, and JOB is just all over the place