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Aaron Holiday

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  • #46
    Fact of the matter is the Pacers brass lives in the 90s with their obsession in building a frontcourt. The best teams in the NBA have players that can switch between 1-4 and all we seem to do is accumulate 4-5s. Holiday is a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant offense that became more pronounced with Oladipo out. He may not be the answer, but he at least made the team more aggressive on offense and less stagnant. That alone is worth playing him, unless you get an upgrade.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Peck View Post


      There are some players who absolutely cannot be thrown to the fire because they will melt and shrivel from the experience. As an example I never in a million years would have said throw Roy Hibbert out there from day one, start him and let him work it out. I wouldn't have done it for Myles Turner or Lance Stephenson for that matter either. On the other hand Danny Granger, Reggie Miller, Dale Davis even Paul George I would have had zero problem with them either getting huge minutes or starting.

      IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE PLAYER.
      If Goga's the real deal, It'll be interesting to see how Myles responds having a young talented guy backing him up that can do a lot of the same things that make Myles unique. Will it push him to be more aggressive and take the next step offensively or will he be looking over his shoulder? Myles doesn't have Hibbert level issues, but you can certainly tell a difference in his game when he's confident and decisive.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Suaveness View Post
        Fact of the matter is the Pacers brass lives in the 90s with their obsession in building a frontcourt. The best teams in the NBA have players that can switch between 1-4 and all we seem to do is accumulate 4-5s. Holiday is a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant offense that became more pronounced with Oladipo out. He may not be the answer, but he at least made the team more aggressive on offense and less stagnant. That alone is worth playing him, unless you get an upgrade.
        I'm in the camp that we should give Domas and Turner a fair shot at playing together, but WTH are we gonna do when the Lakers run out a LBJ/Davis front court ?

        Agree with the Holiday take. Start him and don't look back. Use the cash to get quicker, more athletic, and younger if possible.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Suaveness View Post
          Fact of the matter is the Pacers brass lives in the 90s with their obsession in building a frontcourt. The best teams in the NBA have players that can switch between 1-4 and all we seem to do is accumulate 4-5s. Holiday is a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant offense that became more pronounced with Oladipo out. He may not be the answer, but he at least made the team more aggressive on offense and less stagnant. That alone is worth playing him, unless you get an upgrade.
          Man, I get so tired of hearing this over and over. And not just that statement, but just the whole small ball, switchable parts, 3-point jacking sentiment. Certain play styles get "hot" and people think "that's the only way you win in this game today". It changes every decade, and yet there's always teams that go completely against the grain. You can't get caught up in that crap.

          Small ball and 3-jacking is not the only way to win. It's how a particular *team* or teams are winning at this time. Just because the Warriors and Rockets and Bucks and a handful of teams do what they do DOES NOT MEAN that is the ONLY way to win in this league. Case in point, look up north. The Raptors just took it to the entire NBA and beat the golden children in SF (after dispatching the juggernaut that had been the Bucks and even a really really good Sixers team) by rolling out plodding/slow/huge Marc Gasol 30+ mpg as a starter and by timely/accurate 3-point shooting, not volume 3-point shooting. Look it up. They are middle of the NBA in 3-point attempts --- but they do hit at a decent rate. That was the key. Toronto doesn't play with tremendous pace. They didn't even particularly kill it on the boards (middle of the pack). Toronto won it all by frankly just being sorta well-rounded and executing in the clutch. They were a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense, (about 10th in both) and that's all it took. The teams who did go totally small, the teams who jacked a ton of 3s? Out. They got beat.

          Meanwhile, if the NBA didn't value big guys, why was there just a feeding frenzy for Anthony Davis where LA gave up years worth of assets? What team wouldn't want Jokic? Guys incredible. Turner and Sabonis were drawing a LOT of interest from teams. Big guys are really becoming amazing... they're still big, but now these big guys are starting to move like guards, doing more than just camping out in the paint. Giannis is a huge man, it's easy to forget that, but he's a big dude. Joel Embiid is a freak. KAT is an animal. Rudy Gobert is a big man. There are some really amazing big guys coming into the league, capable of doing things in the post AND sitting out and hitting 3s and even running the point.

          You can't get wrapped up in trends --- you just build your team to succeed in the way that it can.
          Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 06-25-2019, 05:17 PM.
          There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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          • #50
            Is this an Aaron Holiday thread? My take on him is that he had a decent first year and he may play well this coming year but there is ABSOLUTELY no way he starts. He's not paid nearly enough compared to other options at PG. So, once again, look for a repeat of last year and hope that he plays so well they can't keep him off the floor.

            Think of Domas. He was too good to keep off the floor but even he didn't start. Otherwise he would have had KOQ minutes. Holiday may be hard pressed to get minutes if Dipo comes back healthy. I think he played a bit combo guard and that role will be reduced.
            Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by CJ Jones View Post

              I'm in the camp that we should give Domas and Turner a fair shot at playing together, but WTH are we gonna do when the Lakers run out a LBJ/Davis front court ?

              Agree with the Holiday take. Start him and don't look back. Use the cash to get quicker, more athletic, and younger if possible.
              The Pacers would do the same thing they did against the Cavs in the playoffs when they would play Love at Center. Bogey would guard LeBron, and then one of Turner/Sabonis would hide on the least threatening player on the floor.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Cubs231721 View Post

                The Pacers would do the same thing they did against the Cavs in the playoffs when they would play Love at Center. Bogey would guard LeBron, and then one of Turner/Sabonis would hide on the least threatening player on the floor.
                Does it really matter who you throw out against those two? Nope, might as well do our thing and do it the best we can.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by BillS View Post

                  This is something I've never gotten, this idea that the only way to learn NBA basketball is to start. In pretty much any other endeavor, putting someone in over their head so they can fail their way into expertise is a ridiculous training method, but somehow in the NBA not only is it preferred but if you don't do it you've stunted the player's growth for life and he'll never ever be any good.

                  We can certainly agree that he should have gotten more consistent minutes off the bench as the third string - I think our rotation was compressed too early last season - but I definitely don't agree that his play was consistently good enough to have earned full rotation minutes.

                  I would be all in favor of having a good point to start ahead of Aaron to give him something to learn from, with him getting constant and consistent minutes as the bench PG. A one-year rental of a PG we want to have Aaron develop as would be an excellent investment.

                  He gets thrown in as a starter without a player like Dipo to succeed with in distribution and suddenly we have a guy who is seen as "trash" and who "obviously can never be the PG for a championship team". Let the guy be successful as the bench point before you drown him in a non-permanent starting lineup.
                  Trial by fire makes some.....and breaks others.
                  "The greatest thing you know Comes not from above but below" Danzig

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                  • #54
                    I do not know ( for now ) if Aaron is our future Starting PG or not. I suspect that ( at worst ) he's a solid "1st Guard off the bench" that can play 24 to 28 mpg. I just want him to develop and get to the point that he can handle that minimal role. The main reason is because I want to develop "in-house" talent that is cheap but capable of contributing on a high level. I hope to do the same for Sumner, Alize and Leaf on a smaller scale so that they can be cheap talent that can contribute on some level.
                    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                    • #55
                      Kyle Lowry was also a 24th pick like Aaron. Does anyone know what his early career arc looked like?
                      "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                      • #56
                        [QUOTE=BillS;n3460909]

                        The problem around here is that no one believes that information gained from practice or training camp is useful - most seem to think that only actually playing in a game proves anything. Over and over again people repeat the mantra "put him in a game and see what happens" as if no one has a clue how a guy will play until he's in a game.
                        As with all things there is a middle ground. You are correct that practices and camps are useful and where the fundamental work is done to improve the player and the team. However where people always seem to veer off course here is when they fail to acknowledge what the Pacers have publicly acknowledged. That the team does not actually practice during the regular season no a regular basis. You get shoot arounds, film sessions and even backup practice. But to have the team practice does not happen except on a few long home stands or on away games where they have several days off. Yes they get attention from the assistant coach's and are given specific things to work on by the head coach but no they are not getting what they get in camp. That being said virtually every single NBA player I've ever heard from Charles Barkley to Steph Curry has said that there is no substitution for game time experience for learning. That being said, I hate the fact that if Nate was going to DNP-CD Holiday so much last year he should have sent him to the Mad Ants for some time.

                        You bring up the #1 draft pick as an example as if just saying "I'm not comparing Aaron to him" is enough to make it level ground. It isn't. If Aaron was picked top 5 and still not playing I'd be right there with everyone regarding starting him, but he was picked where he was for a reason - even given 3 years of college ball. There's also the matter of the position - I have long believed that PG is the single hardest position to play well in the NBA - and even in the age of "positionless" ball someone ends up being the primary playmaker.
                        You do realize you just made vnzla's head explode right? I mean you are admitting that the lower the draft pick is it is because they are there for a reason. So am I to take it that you are now the leader of the tank bandwagon. So in other words whenever Pritchard is gushing on about our current draft pick it will be perfectly fine for graphicer or someone to say "well they were available for a reason". No me on the other hand, I say talent is talent no matter where you are drafted. So just because Aaron was picked in the lower half of the first round I don't think he should be held back if he has the talent to prove otherwise.

                        It also isn't like his time as deep bench was so consistent when he moved up in the rotation.
                        Not really sure what this means, but if you are saying he was impacted because of his inconsistent use by Nate then I'm right there with you.

                        You want to set players up for success, not set them up for failure because they will magically learn from it. You only learn from failure when you have someone helping you change, not from going out and getting clobbered over and over again. It has nothing to do with whether he will wilt emotionally, it has to do with whether he will become a better player from the experience.
                        You mean like coach's and veteran's? Setting someone up for failure was putting Edmond Sumners starting his first game against the Golden State Warriors. Yes, that happened btw. But your premise implies that Holiday would fail over and over, I don't believe he would. Again this is a player by player thing. I would not say let's just start TJ Leaf and make him play through it. Holiday is a different type of alpha dog player to me.

                        It's called having earned the trust of the coach. We can argue over whether that trust was deserved, but the idea is that no one expected CoJo to do that in multiple games while a rookie has no body of work. It's not a good answer to allow your rookie to get into the habit of making mistake after mistake after mistake with impunity.
                        Certainly. However there are also some coach's who are more hypocritical than others. I believe I know where Nate falls on that spectrum.


                        I really want to find these mythical coaches in the NBA - who seem to be everyone but the Pacers' coaches and a few others according to what people seem to think - who are in the middle playoff seeds through the season and constantly purposefully bench veterans to let rookies make mistakes in games. I'd venture to say any rookie "allowed" to do that is an early lottery pick whose upside on the court far outweighs the mistakes they make. For all the potential Holiday has he isn't that guy.
                        Your not going to find any. The one thing I will not blame Nate for is who he uses. I don't like it and yes I will say he is wrong but at the end of the day I know that a coach job is to win and he will play the players who he thinks will make that happen. It is the director of basketball operations to look forward and either give the coach a pass to play and develop players or give him the type of players he needs. This is where I fault Bird a lot in the Satan years. I hate Satan with all of my heart but I also always acknowledge that Bird never gave him the players he needed to do what he wanted to do.

                        Bottom line is that everyone thinks the guy they like got pulled too early and the guy they hate got left on the court too long.
                        True, won't deny it.


                        I would agree that I don't want another PG on a long term contract, but a year so that Aaron can be the principal bench unit PG would be the best situation in my book. I want Aaron to get some success and learn good habits playing with a unit against bench defense, not being pulled in multiple directions playing with a unit that is temporary (or working Dipo back into shape) against starter defense.
                        My first priority is to get a player better than Aaron Holiday that can be the long term starter making this entire thread moot. I believe Russell is that player. But if not then no I do NOT want a Rubio or whoever else filling in for two more years (nobody worth a crap is going to sign a one year deal) while Holiday rots on the bench.

                        I am clearly too old-fashioned for any sport today. I love a grinding defensive NBA game. I love a pitchers' duel. Even in the NFL I hate that the field goal has become all but automatic so that there's no more real holding teams scoreless. I love seeing strategy and tactics a lot more than a whoever-misses-first-loses slugfest.

                        That would tell you I hope that I'd rather see good solid wins than "exciting" losses.
                        Where we differ is only in semantics of what you think the previous two seasons were. I feel confident that you look at the previous two seasons and see success, I look at the first season as a pleasant surprise with last season to me being a failure. Once Victor went down a huge failure because the inevitability of so many free agents being just wasted. Those were tradable assets that we just let squander away. The first round sweep to the Celtics meant nothing to me and I would have just as soon drop down to lose to the Bucks or Raptors in four knowing we got assets to work with going forward.

                        But having said that, yes I love a good defensive game as much as anyone (remember who my favorite player was) but even then I want to see some speed and athleticism with it. Not just have decent defense because we bored them to death.


                        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Peck View Post

                          You do realize that Strummer loves summers right?

                          Also what is your point of O'Quinn? I think highly of him, in the role that he has. Do I think he is a starter or potential starter? No. But as a quality big who does not complain about uneven minutes who is ready every time his number is called and leaves it all on the floor. What's not to like?
                          Yep, do realize Stummer's point of view. Strummer's our biggest Mad Ants fan on the board, so I know they understand how good Sumner is.

                          I wasn't knocking O'Quinn. I said at our gathering that I think he's the best 5th big we've ever had. I just find it ironic that people who think highly of KOQ also think lowly of Sumner, that's all.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Peck View Post
                            You do realize you just made vnzla's head explode right? I mean you are admitting that the lower the draft pick is it is because they are there for a reason. So am I to take it that you are now the leader of the tank bandwagon. So in other words whenever Pritchard is gushing on about our current draft pick it will be perfectly fine for graphicer or someone to say "well they were available for a reason". No me on the other hand, I say talent is talent no matter where you are drafted. So just because Aaron was picked in the lower half of the first round I don't think he should be held back if he has the talent to prove otherwise.
                            There's a false equivalency being built here. It's pretty clear that the guys picked earliest in the draft are the ones more ready to contribute immediately at a high level. It doesn't mean guys picked later will never contribute at a high level, it means they may take some time to develop (or have concerns that outweigh their expected contribution - like health or character or experience - or even are just not clearly the BPA at the time). I firmly believe in potential, but where I fall of the bandwagon is that I don't believe potential is something that has to be rushed or it is wasted. Our perception is skewed because most of the superstars are the ones who came into the league already nearly at the top and so of course they will play right away and thrive. The guys who develop more slowly are most likely going to be a tier below that, but a team of them is still pretty damn strong.

                            I'm going to go back to one thing I posted that I think is important in my concept of playing time - the detriment of a player on the floor while he works out his mistakes has GOT to be outweighed by his upside in that game. A PG getting double-digit assist is going to be allowed to play through a bunch of turnovers. A guy grabbing tons of rebounds is going to be forgiven some poor rotations on defense that allow a dunk or two. And a veteran is going to get the benefit of the doubt over a rookie as to whether those good things will happen later in the game if/when he has a bad start or a bad stretch. We've seen what happens on teams where playing time is completely based on "what have you done for me lately" - players start playing just for themselves in fear that they'll lose their spot in the rotation if they defer to someone else, there's no ability for instinctive playmaking because you don't have consistent groups of teammates on the floor with you, etc.

                            I'm always going to be conservative about rookie playing time unless there is clear evidence no one is better ahead of them. I think, though, that there's only a fine line between that and those who want to see the rookie (or young guy in general) playing unless there is clear evidence the veteran is better. I mainly just think that what we see in a game is only part of why those decisions are made, so second-guessing them should be based on our observations being taken with a grain of salt.
                            BillS

                            A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                            Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                            • #59
                              One thing that has not been mentioned in this discussion is that contracts encourage young players to play earlier. Teams will pay young players based on potential. The best way to get a fair deal in restricted free agency is to have plenty of in-game data to base it off of.

                              Also, team building is hard when you don't really know what you have in a young player. Lengthening that process out makes it harder to build, not easier.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by HC View Post

                                Trial by fire makes some.....and breaks others.
                                And for the most part only those who are closest to the situation have a good enough understanding to know how a player will react to trial by fire. Us fans are always too far removed.

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