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Re: World Cup 2010
Wow. Soccer needs to do something about the reffing. Maybe more than one guy that can call things?
Wow. Soccer needs to do something about the reffing. Maybe more than one guy that can call things?
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Re: World Cup 2010
I seriously despise this Spain team.Comment
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Re: World Cup 2010
as expected Spain Portugal turned into diving competition, the ref was pretty good, but he couldnt get every call right because of the sheer number takes.Comment
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Re: World Cup 2010
that red card was dubious - he just faked everything - but the ref could not see it...
FIFA will continue to turn a blind eye on it...
I thought Villa's goal looked offside but the videos did not even bother to show whether or not it was onside...i guess FIFA started to block the feed already....
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Re: World Cup 2010
Now FIFA is saying they may us instant replay in the future.Comment
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Re: World Cup 2010
Yeah, i thought the same thing. He may very well have been onside, but a replay still would have been super.Originally posted by bellisimo View PostComment
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Re: World Cup 2010
I'm a happy man. The team with about 8 defenders lost. hurray for attractive soccer. The goal was off-side by maybe one or two inch. Screw that and count it, give credit for taking guts for trying to win the game by attacking.
In this game you could see that defending is easier then attacking, because when Portugal had to get back from behind they didn't have a clue how to go about it.
I think the redcard was a right one btw. And I think the ref. was quite good. The diving by particularly the Portuguese and to a lesser extent the Spanish was deceiving and made it look much worse.
Btw how can you despise this Spain team? Attractive, free-flowing soccer, crisp passing and nice finishing, etc. If there's one team I despise it's actually Portugal.2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws
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Re: World Cup 2010
Only at the goalline if I'm not mistaken. Not for offside.Originally posted by SycamoreKen View Post2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.wsComment
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Re: World Cup 2010
Originally posted by SycamoreKen View Post
actually they are just saying that they will discuss the usage of it...as long as its Blatter leading the way...don't get your hopes up...the man always discusses these things but never comes through with it...he is an old schooler...Comment
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Re: World Cup 2010
I finally feel i can post again after a few days of reflection.
Obviously very disappointed in 'the decision' and had that gone differently, who knows what would have happened.
However, over the 90 minutes it's clear to see that Germany played better football and won desearvedly. Our defence was a complete shambles. I have coach school level football, and if my back four lost shape and had that little discipline i would have been unhappy, nevermind four professional international players.
As expected, I am just very disappointed, but I do not doubt we can come back in four years and try again. Maybe one day the England players, who play so well for club teams will play well together.
I would like to reply to a few snipes made by people at the England team. Firstly, i don't think it is right to question these players commitment or desire. They clearly are commited and wanted nothing more than to win the world cup. Saying that they did not try is an insult that is unfounded in my opinion. Their execution was dreadful and their competance questionable, but i have no doubt players like Rooney, Terry, Gerrand, Cole etc. put everything into this world cup and will be even more broken up by it than i am.
Equally those who say England are overrated. As a team we are underperforming, no doubt, but i cannot accept that the individual players, who we see week in week out dominating what is widely regarded as the best league in the world, are not world class. They are. We just don't seem able to put them together internationally.
Anyway, enough about England. Congratulations to Germany, I wish them luck against Maradonna et al. That should be an incredible game, I am really looking forward to it.
Originally posted by Mourning View PostMaybe Shearer should take a look at his own country and what they have done since 1966 instead of being negative about mine
. Talking about a failure to live up to expectations, play attractive soccer and get far in the tournament .
I think this is a little bit unnecessary. Shearer was very, very critical of England, rightly so. He isn't having a go at Holland, he's saying talent wise, you could be one of the best attacking teams in the world, and thinks it would be good for you to use it going forward and domianate games like that, as you are clearly stonger at that end of the pitch. No need to berate him about the England team like that, he berates the England team himself. Disagree with his comments, fair enough. He's paid to be a football analysis. He was critical of Englands style, preformance and execution. Equally he can be critical of Holland, who as you said yourself, havn't played as well as they could have. That's his job, and actually he had a point. Swipe at England, swipe at his arguements, but don't misrepresent him.
On a related note, congratulations on reaching the reaching the last 8. Good luck against Brazil. Hopefully another great game. I think, while Brazil are clearly favourites, if you put them under pressure, with players like Robben, it's very possible you could win, although i think you'll need more than one goal.
Right, I have to find something to do for the next two days. It's been a while since i havn't watched at least 1 football game in a day, if not 2.'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
Animal Farm, by George Orwell
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Re: World Cup 2010
im already having withdrawal symptoms...I need my world cup fix!Comment
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Re: World Cup 2010
Let me take the opportunity to offer you my apologies. You are right. I overreact a bit. OTOH I'm amazed he is telling us to be more focused on attacking, really. Has he not watched our team play since 1974? We were pretty much the side with the most attacking playstyle in that period and what do we have to show for it? One European Championship, reaching the final twice and reaching the last 4 and 8 a lot of times.Originally posted by The Hustler View Post
People and players want to finally see us reach the final again and actually win it, instead of getting praise for having the guts to attack and thus leave space open at midfield and our back for an easy counter from one of the sides with 5+ defenders.
I'm also rather annoyed that somehow it's expected of our side to play beautifull soccer and get critisized harshly when "we" don't for a change, while others, like Italy and for a longgggg time Germany (I love their style now), played the ugliest soccer the face of the earth has ever witnessed and hardly got any critique for it. Those two teams DID get results though and that's what our coach is now saying too:
"you want results? Then play offensive, but more controlled, reserved and a lot more focus on ball possesion". It's not as exciting as it used to be, but still pretty good and I think it's good to try something new that's worked for other teams before. If it doesn't work for us over a few tournaments we can always go back to what we were used too.
For example we beat Italy and France the previous world cup finalists in 2006 in the European Championships 3-1 and 3-2 respectively if memory serves me correct. With truly beautifull play and also play against Romania decently. Then we move into the knockout schedule and we face Russia, with a coach who understands the way we play better then any other coach alive (Hiddink) and get knocked out. So, we played beautifully and then after that get knocked out and here particularly the international press say "the Dutch dissappoint as usual". F*** that. It's not like we have 150+ million people to draw our talent from, like Brazil, and why no word on that we played beautifully all of a sudden? Because in the end it didn't count.
Anyway, sorry, again for going out of line against England in my previous post. I actually do respect them, but personally I think that your side has too many players playing in the Premier League. It would be good to have some players in other leagues to see how the game is played there. The Premier League is a great, great league, probably the best or second best league in the world rightnow. It's still only one league though. I can't precisely put my finger on it, but I think that has atleast something to do with it, but even more to do with it is the number of games English players have to play. I think that in the end is the killer for you guys and is something that will have to be looked into if the England team wants to aspire to winning the WC once again.
With regards to our game next friday. I think we have a shot, but we are the underdogs, certainly, no doubt about that. Don't write us off too quickly though. Our defense is indeed a bit shaky, but OTOH we do have a very good defensive midfield and a good offense. We lost the Brazil in 1994 and 1998, both times very narrowly (getting a clear cut penalty denied in 1998 was what would have won us that match without a doubt). This Holland team is closer nit together then anyother of our teams that I can remember. It also seems more determined mentally then anyother since 1988.
Still luck and form of the day could very well decide this match. Two or three Brazilian attacks performed like against Chile and we could be toast. It's good to know that we can hurt them just as much aswell
.
Just my
Last edited by Mourning; 06-30-2010, 07:47 AM.2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.wsComment
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Re: World Cup 2010
Apology more than accepted, although you should know i was not angry at you, just frustrated by the comment. I feel that actually based on that last post we agree quite a bit about this topic.
At the end of the day, football is about enjoyment, and enjoyment, more often than not, comes from the team you support winning and achieving success. I think one would be a fool to try and convince someone that the style of football is more important that the result. (Maybe the attitude and nature of the players is more important, but not the style of football.)
We have been very blessed, certainly throughout my lifetime and the decade before to be able to watch beautiful flowing attacking football from the Dutch teams, almost always making for entertaining games, which is very refreshing for a neutral watching. However, i agree that your primary target must be victories. The model for the complete oposite of this style, i think is clearly the traditional Italian teams, the orchestraters of the defence driven 1-0 win. Built on defence, which has certainly proven successful over time. So much so that other teams follow suit.
I understand your frustration at being expected to play a style that others would not even consider, and i would not expect you to myself, however, i do believe that to some extent this dutch team needs to play a more attacking style than most. Obviously not to the extent it has in the past. But i do not believe that this is a team that can sit on the back foot for 70 minutes soaking up pressure, and then win 1-0. I dont think the defence can hold top teams to that. Therefore, i think for Holland to win against the best teams, they need to control the ball and the tempo of the game, applying pressure on opponants, without commiting too many men forward, something that only a team with considerable offensive talent, particularly on the ball, like Holland can do.
So i think, while i agree with you that the expectation of all out attack is not justifiable, i do beleive, to play to your teams strengths, it does not make sense to put 10 men ball. In my opinion, feel free to disagree of course.
As for England, it is without doubt they looked tired. We cannot use it as an excuse, i am sure other players were tired, but there is a serious inquisition and debate ging on in England about this. Players playing 38 premier league games, plus two cup competitions, Champions league and internationals without any break since the previous summer is a big ask. Many are calling for a Christmas break much like in other leagues around Europe, or an easter break, like the NBA has over the All star period.
I agree that it probably isn't the best thing to have all the players from one league, but i cannot blame the players for that, In England they fulfil their childhood dreams playing in the Premier league, the money is there, they speak the language. All n all it makes sense for them to stay.
Anyway, Just my opinions,
Bellisimo, I know how you feel, i just looked at my clock thinking how long is it till 3 o'clock (usually the first game kick off), then realised it doesn't matter! Can't believe there are only 7 games left, then another 2 year wait till the Euro's and 4 years till the World cup.'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.'
Animal Farm, by George Orwell
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Re: World Cup 2010
Hustler,
I think you simply must question the English teams desire when they show up and squeak into the 16 and then just lay an egg against Germany. Yes, the goal coming back killed them, but yet again another example of this English team wilting like flowers.
You will find no argument from me that they are one of the most talented teams in the world. I have agreed with that and have stated as much in this thread, but that is what makes their shortcomings that much more questionable.
Poor decision making, to me, is a result of not being fully invested in the game. They aren't right in the heads, and Rooney's comments after the game against Algeria in group play pretty much showed that he can't handle the pressure of being the 10 for England. That's just my honest opinion. I think as an English national you are being far too kind on that team for their performance. They deserve to be ripped to shreds, they showed zero mental fortitude the whole cup, from the botched goal against the USA, to the comments after being booed against Algeria, to completely folding after their second goal was called back.
They should be held accountable for a dreadful showing when you consider all the talent that team has amassed.
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Re: World Cup 2010
Your suggestion for English players to leave the premiership is interesting, but the vast majority of Spanish players currently play in La Liga as well, so I don't know how much that would help.Originally posted by Mourning View PostLet me take the opportunity to offer you my apologies. You are right. I overreact a bit. OTOH I'm amazed he is telling us to be more focused on attacking, really. Has he not watched our team play since 1974? We were pretty much the side with the most attacking playstyle in that period and what do we have to show for it? One European Championship, reaching the final twice and reaching the last 4 and 8 a lot of times.
People and players want to finally see us reach the final again and actually win it, instead of getting praise for having the guts to attack and thus leave space open at midfield and our back for an easy counter from one of the sides with 5+ defenders.
I'm also rather annoyed that somehow it's expected of our side to play beautifull soccer and get critisized harshly when "we" don't for a change, while others, like Italy and for a longgggg time Germany (I love their style now), played the ugliest soccer the face of the earth has ever witnessed and hardly got any critique for it. Those two teams DID get results though and that's what our coach is now saying too:
"you want results? Then play offensive, but more controlled, reserved and a lot more focus on ball possesion". It's not as exciting as it used to be, but still pretty good and I think it's good to try something new that's worked for other teams before. If it doesn't work for us over a few tournaments we can always go back to what we were used too.
For example we beat Italy and France the previous world cup finalists in 2006 in the European Championships 3-1 and 3-2 respectively if memory serves me correct. With truly beautifull play and also play against Romania decently. Then we move into the knockout schedule and we face Russia, with a coach who understands the way we play better then any other coach alive (Hiddink) and get knocked out. So, we played beautifully and then after that get knocked out and here particularly the international press say "the Dutch dissappoint as usual". F*** that. It's not like we have 150+ million people to draw our talent from, like Brazil, and why no word on that we played beautifully all of a sudden? Because in the end it didn't count.
Anyway, sorry, again for going out of line against England in my previous post. I actually do respect them, but personally I think that your side has too many players playing in the Premier League. It would be good to have some players in other leagues to see how the game is played there. The Premier League is a great, great league, probably the best or second best league in the world rightnow. It's still only one league though. I can't precisely put my finger on it, but I think that has atleast something to do with it, but even more to do with it is the number of games English players have to play. I think that in the end is the killer for you guys and is something that will have to be looked into if the England team wants to aspire to winning the WC once again.
With regards to our game next friday. I think we have a shot, but we are the underdogs, certainly, no doubt about that. Don't write us off too quickly though. Our defense is indeed a bit shaky, but OTOH we do have a very good defensive midfield and a good offense. We lost the Brazil in 1994 and 1998, both times very narrowly (getting a clear cut penalty denied in 1998 was what would have won us that match without a doubt). This Holland team is closer nit together then anyother of our teams that I can remember. It also seems more determined mentally then anyother since 1988.
Still luck and form of the day could very well decide this match. Two or three Brazilian attacks performed like against Chile and we could be toast. It's good to know that we can hurt them just as much aswell.
Just my
The English need to stop being scared of their own shadow, truthfully I know it may seem as if I am just a hater of the English team, but that is not the case. As a soccer fan, I would love to see the English play at their full potential, imagine if they had played up to their talent level in this cup? They could have won our group, and we could have had England/Brazil (sorry I think Brazil's D will beat out the Dutch O as much as I would love to see the Dutch win) in one semi final, and then Spain vs. Argentina/Germany in the other. How awesome would that have been?
Instead England vastly underachieves.
As far as the English being claimed as overrated by the media, a comment made by Hustler, if anything from a talent standpoint they are now underrated. Seriously, if I'm ranking rosters at this cup on sheer talent alone, I'm going with Spain first, then England or Brazil, with Argentina right after them. The English have the talent, and that is why they are so frustrating.Last edited by Trader Joe; 06-30-2010, 09:05 AM.
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