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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Can we lock this thread?
Can we lock this thread?
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Yeah, and you have things like being mentioned by political leaders as an accomplishment. That's not an accomplishment.....Originally posted by billbradley View Post
So are they voices of a generation then too? Because all your doing is showing that there are many other artists out there that are influential with their genre, which is exactly what I'm saying. Just because you're influential doesn't mean you should get a pretty exclusive title like "voice of a generation."Originally posted by billbradley View Post
IHMO something like that should be given to artists that actually changed the world forever. Not changed it for a couple of years.
That's why I laugh when people try to say that Nirvana paved the way for grunge music. Ten being released BEFORE Nevermind shows that Nirvana was one of the bands to take it mainstream, not THE band. Pearl Jam was signed to a major record company, Epic. They don't sign your neighborhood garage bands without some pretty lofty expectations.
I can't link it right now, so i will when I'm home.
And here it is. The ONLY difference is that Nirvana was labeled a voice of a generation, yet they didn't do anything out of the ordinary to get that label.Originally posted by billbradley View Post
It's an arbitrary title handed out based on what exactly? The opinion of the person handing out the title! That's it. There's nothing else to it. If a writer deems a certain band worthy of the title, they just automatically get it?
That's why I say The Beatles and Nirvana are in two completely different camps. You can actually cite the cultural influences that The Beatles had. Like how Lennon was almost deported for his political views etc.“Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
There's an option at the top of the thread called "thread options" Click that and there is another option at the bottom that's called "ignore this thread."Originally posted by cdash View Post
Problem solved.“Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Do we even know what we are arguing about anymore?
Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
I do.Originally posted by Peck View Post
There's no problem between Bill and I, on my end atleast. I don't know about him, but I don't feel like it's a personal thing.“Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Ding! Ding! Ding!Originally posted by Since86 View PostFollow me at @BluejbgoldComment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Not at all. I actually enjoy the debate. A flaw of mine is I sound snarky when I debate, but nothing personal at all, as I feel eventually, I will find the perfect story or happening to win.Originally posted by Since86 View Post
Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Your condescension, as always, is appreciated.Originally posted by Since86 View PostComment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
I was being serious, but alright.Originally posted by cdash View Post“Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
If someone running for leader of the free world quotes your work, it is a MAJOR accomplishment.Originally posted by Since86 View Post
So are they voices of a generation then too? Because all your doing is showing that there are many other artists out there that are influential with their genre, which is exactly what I'm saying. Just because you're influential doesn't mean you should get a pretty exclusive title like "voice of a generation."
NWA, Biggie and Tupac were, but Tupac mainly got the nod. It's kind of like the Pearl Jam, Dino Jr. Mud Honey thing. You don't have to be the first to be the cornerstone of the movement.
see aboveThat's why I laugh when people try to say that Nirvana paved the way for grunge music. Ten being released BEFORE Nevermind shows that Nirvana was one of the bands to take it mainstream, not THE band. Pearl Jam was signed to a major record company, Epic. They don't sign your neighborhood garage bands without some pretty lofty expectations.
And Ten didn't do what Nevermind did. Eddie Vedder is no Kurt Cobain in history. You can say it's because Cobain died and I think that is a fair point, but it doesn't change what it is.
They did change it forever, just like othere bands that were around for a couple of years.IHMO something like that should be given to artists that actually changed the world forever. Not changed it for a couple of years.
How else does someone get the title besides what I've described? Record sales? Then no Bob Dylan. The popular opinion and the media choses these things. And all we have to go off of for that is historians, print and news media for history. All of that tells us what Nirvana was.And here it is. The ONLY difference is that Nirvana was labeled a voice of a generation, yet they didn't do anything out of the ordinary to get that label.
It's an arbitrary title handed out based on what exactly? The opinion of the person handing out the title! That's it. There's nothing else to it. If a writer deems a certain band worthy of the title, they just automatically get it?
Yes, I agree. Nirvana is no Beatles. But Nirvana is in a small group of great musicians for what they accomplished. That sets them apart. That makes them great.That's why I say The Beatles and Nirvana are in two completely different camps. You can actually cite the cultural influences that The Beatles had. Like how Lennon was almost deported for his political views etc.Last edited by billbradley; 09-15-2011, 04:32 PM.Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
In that case, thank you. I did already know about the ignore thread feature though.Originally posted by Since86 View PostComment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Nirvana’s rock legacy won’t fade away, 20 years on
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifes...s_on_1_3779033
It’s 20 years since Nirvana released the album that changed popular culture forever. Andy Welch pays tribute to a musical masterpiece.
“It’s better to burn out than to fade away.”
Those nine words taken from Neil Young’s My My, Hey Hey (Out Of The Blue) were written in 1979, but cemented themselves in rock ‘n’ roll infamy when, in 1994, Kurt Cobain quoted them in his suicide note.
The Nirvana frontman had reached the end of his road; unable to deal with the intense pressures of fame, the ubiquity of his music and, of course, the crippling heroin addiction.
Rewind a few years to the release of the band’s debut album Bleach, and things were very different.
Nirvana were a promising group in the Seattle grunge scene, along with the likes of Mudhoney and The Melvins. The release of Nevermind in September 1991, however, changed everything.
“It sounds ridiculous to say it now, but I always thought Nirvana had potential,” explains music journalist Keith Cameron, one of the band’s early champions during his time at now-defunct magazine Vox.
“After the first album, Kurt started getting a stronger idea of what he wanted to do musically, and was clearly influenced by The Beatles.
“He was from a background where making a punk-rock statement was more important than writing a good song, but his instinct with melody kicked in when writing Nevermind.”
The build-up to the album was a lengthy one. The trio – Cobain, bassist Krist Novoselic and drummer Chad Channing (who was replaced by Dave Grohl before final recording sessions for Nevermind began) – were in the process of looking to leave their cash-strapped independent label Sub Pop. In April 1990, they decamped to producer Butch Vig’s Wisconsin studios to record a set of demos, eventually using the resulting tape as an advert to attract a major new deal.
BBC 6 Music presenter Steve Lamacq was live reviews editor at NME at the time. “They came over that autumn and played the London Astoria,” he says.
“They stayed at a B&B in Shepherd’s Bush, so I went over to interview them.
“They were all in one room, and Krist had a cold so he did the interview from bed, under the sheets.
“Occasionally his head would pop out and say something.
“Dave Grohl was relatively new still, so he wasn’t allowed in on the interview
“Halfway through he came in dragging a binbag full of their dirty laundry, went to the bathroom and started washing all their socks and pants in the bath.
“The whole time this was going on, there was a small black and white telly on the wall with the sound down, playing The Wizard Of Oz.”
By the time Nevermind was actually released, the rest of the world remained largely ambivalent. Even Nirvana’s new record label, Geffen, didn’t know what they had on their hands.
They expected sales of around 250,000, and famously didn’t press enough copies of the album to satisfy demand. It went to No 1 in the US in January 1992 and has since sold 30 million copies worldwide.
“All of that success happened so quickly,” says Dave Grohl, Nirvana drummer and now Foo Fighters frontman.
“We were touring in a van when we went platinum. And I was still living in my friend’s back room by the time we’d sold 10 million records.”
Thanks to Cobain’s songs, artists had to be sincere again, and self-aware.
Music fans wanted honesty, not stories of late nights with loose women.
MTV was also rejuvenated by Smells Like Teen Spirit, the video becoming one of the most iconic, and most watched, in the channel’s history.
“Nevermind united all the different factions,” adds Lamacq.
“I reviewed the album for NME in 1991, and I gave it 9/10, calling it a ‘rock blueprint for the 90s’. Not only am I pleased with that, but I still stand by it.”
To mark the 20th anniversary of the release of Nevermind, a special four-CD reissue box-set of previously unreleased Nirvarna material will be released on September 26.
Nevermind the rest – what the album means to us
“The melodies on that album blow my mind. It’s so heavy, but laced with melody. It’s a collection of perfect pop songs.” (Serge Pizzorno of Kasabian)
“It’s an amazing, amazing album. I was too young for it at the time, but have grown to love it. The drums sound brilliant.” (Arctic Monkey Alex Turner)
“If the album came along now its influence would have been equally as profound. That’s what makes it an enduring classic.” (Q magazine editor Paul Rees)Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Because he said "all apologies?" I mean, maybe if he went into some deep lyrics that actually have a profound message, then maybe. But not because he said something as simple as what he did.Originally posted by billbradley View Post
So far you've named 4 voices of a generation now. How many are there? I think that kind of title shouldn't be handed out so rapidly. There are a lot of good artists out there that put out socially conscientious messages, that really aren't the voice of an entire generation.Originally posted by billbradley View Post
I don't see so much the problem with Tupac, because he encompassed a pretty large majority of the black youth. Nirvana only touched a small portion of the population. Grunge didn't stick. They quickly turned their backs to it and embraced genres that are totally opposite of grunge.
I'm not saying it did. I'm saying they were signed and recorded by a major studio label. They just don't sign anyone and everyone. They're selective. If they think it can't make mainstream waves, then Epic isn't going to be the company that signs them. They're going to be signed by some smaller company, probably owned by Epic.Originally posted by billbradley View Post
Grunge would have came onto the scene with or without Nirvana, IMHO. It might not have reached the heights that it did, but there were a lot of bands out there in grunge churning out hits that would have still became hits. And they were doing it at the same time, or earlier, than Nirvana. So the inspiration for that kind of music wasn't at the feet of Nirvana. They didn't create the trend, they were just the biggest name in it.
Did they really change it or just bump it off course? We've already talked about how grunge was the anti-hair band, how rock music was this mass produced machine that revolved around the glitz and glam, and grunge was the darker side. Well, the darker side of grunge turned into the bright sun shine of pop music. Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys type music rose to the top, and rock n roll fell down to the bottom. The world turned it's back on the music/message of grunge. They never fully embraced it.Originally posted by billbradley View Post
Maybe if Kurt wouldn't have committed suicide grunge would have maintained it's popularity. I could buy that argument. But Pearl Jam along with many other popular grunge bands were still around and still producing music. People simply quit listening to it as much as they once were.
If Nirvana kept producing music, and their popularity stayed somewhat consistant, then yeah. But they don't have the important lasting power of a real movement.
It's a personal decision. I've made no bones about that. Anyone anywhere can attach "voice of a generation " to anyone/any band. Doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it though.Originally posted by billbradley View Post
I don't see any special accomplishments. I don't see accomplishments that set them apart from their peers.Originally posted by billbradley View Post
I'm not trying to diminish what they did do. The propability of them doing what they did is minute. They took the world by storm, but as quickly as they came, they fell.
Their lasting power is in song only. They get played on the radio still. What they stood for, what they believed in, their message all disappeared shortly after Cobain died.
And quite frankly, their message was lost when he was alive. The things he sang about, the things he felt made him famous. And he hated being famous for it. It was a fad.
I don't think people attached themselves to Nirvana because of their message, but rather because it was the cool thing to do.“Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Well, c'mon. He doesn't have time to recite the whole song. He quoted Cobain's work to prove a point.Originally posted by Since86 View Post
No, I named people who were apart of the movement and were before Tupac. Yet Tupac was given the "nod" for voice of a generation and you agree with that. So you should understand why Pearl Jam coming first has nothing to do with anything.So far you've named 4 voices of a generation now. How many are there? I think that kind of title shouldn't be handed out so rapidly. There are a lot of good artists out there that put out socially conscientious messages, that really aren't the voice of an entire generation.
Grunge did stick. It just isn't called grunge anymore. Once you understand these labels for different stages of music don't mean much you can better understand how Nirvana changed music. But lets revisit this.I don't see so much the problem with Tupac, because he encompassed a pretty large majority of the black youth. Nirvana only touched a small portion of the population. Grunge didn't stick. They quickly turned their backs to it and embraced genres that are totally opposite of grunge.
So why bring up PJ for just being signed?I'm not saying it did. I'm saying they were signed and recorded by a major studio label. They just don't sign anyone and everyone. They're selective. If they think it can't make mainstream waves, then Epic isn't going to be the company that signs them. They're going to be signed by some smaller company, probably owned by Epic.
Would of or could of, but didn't.Grunge would have came onto the scene with or without Nirvana, IMHO. It might not have reached the heights that it did, but there were a lot of bands out there in grunge churning out hits that would have still became hits. And they were doing it at the same time, or earlier, than Nirvana. So the inspiration for that kind of music wasn't at the feet of Nirvana. They didn't create the trend, they were just the biggest name in it.
see above
Pretty people singing pretty songs has always been popular and part of the mainstream. Punk changed that. Nirvana changed thatDid they really change it or just bump it off course? We've already talked about how grunge was the anti-hair band, how rock music was this mass produced machine that revolved around the glitz and glam, and grunge was the darker side. Well, the darker side of grunge turned into the bright sun shine of pop music. Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys type music rose to the top, and rock n roll fell down to the bottom. The world turned it's back on the music/message of grunge. They never fully embraced it.
Stopped listening to grunge bands? All of Pearl Jam's albums of the 2000s went gold and were #1 or #2 except for one that was #5. And um, RADIOHEAD?!?Maybe if Kurt wouldn't have committed suicide grunge would have maintained it's popularity. I could buy that argument. But Pearl Jam along with many other popular grunge bands were still around and still producing music. People simply quit listening to it as much as they once were.
So define how long a movement takes and then I will find things that took less time.If Nirvana kept producing music, and their popularity stayed somewhat consistant, then yeah. But they don't have the important lasting power of a real movement.
The "anyone,anywhere' applies to this hread. Credibilaity for what will be remembered is what exits in news in print and medi, Cobain was a legend hailed as the voice of a generation.It's a personal decision. I've made no bones about that. Anyone anywhere can attach "voice of a generation " to anyone/any band. Doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it though.
Yet you have only named two artists that accomplished what I highlight. Prove it with a list of peers.I don't see any special accomplishments. I don't see accomplishments that set them apart from their peers.
You are trying diminish what they did, that is your argument. You are saying that they didn't accomplish something special. That is wrong. You are saying many other musicians have done the same. That is wrong. And now you are saying they fell, when 20 years later they still manage to be in the media and culturaly relevant.I'm not trying to diminish what they did do. The propability of them doing what they did is minute. They took the world by storm, but as quickly as they came, they fell.
See this is just wrong, people still are writing about what they represented.Their lasting power is in song only. They get played on the radio still. What they stood for, what they believed in, their message all disappeared shortly after Cobain died.
It being a fad is opinion, it being lost on you is an opinion. The fact is the message was felt and not lost while he was alive and dead by popular culture.And quite frankly, their message was lost when he was alive. The things he sang about, the things he felt made him famous. And he hated being famous for it. It was a fad.
And you can think that, I won't argue your opinion. I'm talking about the facts.I don't think people attached themselves to Nirvana because of their message, but rather because it was the cool thing to do.Comment
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Re: Nirvana's place in the world of music....
Now this is where you have to explain why you don't see a problem with Tupac being coined voice of a generation. How did you decide "a large majority of black youth" was encompassed by Tupac? The majority of his albums weren't purchased by black youth, but rather white people of all ages. So how do you know this? What did Tupac do that Cobain didn't? What gangster rappers are still around today? Of them, who is more popular and critically acclaimed than bands from the grung scene Pearl Jam and Radiohead? You say grunge and these bands didn't stick, yet Tupac or gangster rap did? Doesn't add up my friend.I don't see so much the problem with Tupac, because he encompassed a pretty large majority of the black youth. Nirvana only touched a small portion of the population. Grunge didn't stick.Last edited by billbradley; 09-16-2011, 11:39 AM.Comment
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