Non-Colts thread

[Jay@Section12]

Re: Non-Colts thread

I think you underrate the Seahawks. Wilson is a better QB than people give him credit for.

Maybe, but there's a terrible combination of "NFC" and "West" going on there. I don't plan on watching them or anyone in their division any time soon. When I finished my TiVo of the Steelers last night and then saw that last night's game was an NFC matchup, I turned the TV off.

[Jay@Section12]

Re: Non-Colts thread

Did anyone watch the BAL - PHI game?

These refs are in over their head.

As I said above, you know its bad when Dan Dierdorf (DAN DIERDORF!!) is proving throughout the broadcast that he's much sharper than the replacement refs.

Now I've been listening to him for most of my life and I enjoy his stories and love of the game, but he's struggled to keep pace with the action for years. He's been turning into John Madden(ing) for years. In fact, I'll bet these refs are so bad that Madden might even be thinking about a comeback. They could blow a call on the field, and then he could talk for five minutes about some rule that only exists in his head while the guys in the booth run a replay from a different game just to see if he'll notice that he's circling the wrong player with his telestrator!

[ECKrueger]

Re: Non-Colts thread

What do you guys think about the Bucs/Giants kneel down thing?

In case you didn't see it, the Giants were going to kneel, up a touchdown with the clock running out. The Bucs actually rushed them and knocked Eli backwards.

[Jay@Section12]

Re: Non-Colts thread

What do you guys think about the Bucs/Giants kneel down thing?

In case you didn't see it, the Giants were going to kneel, up a touchdown with the clock running out. The Bucs actually rushed them and knocked Eli backwards.

This is in a very grey area. The Giants were only up one score. It wasn't a blowout. They should expect the defense to still be trying to strip the ball and get it back if there was still "some" time left on the clock. Up two scores and I think its a nobrainer cheap shot. But I don't want my team to quit if they're only down own score if there is still time on the clock.

It is tackle football, not kneel-down or touch football.

That's why victory formation usually has a saftey deep down the field behind the QB. In case something happens.

I've always thought that the team should put in the backup QB to take the kneel-downs just in case the defense wanted to still play the rest of the clock.

[BRushWithDeath]

Re: Non-Colts thread

What do you guys think about the Bucs/Giants kneel down thing?

In case you didn't see it, the Giants were going to kneel, up a touchdown with the clock running out. The Bucs actually rushed them and knocked Eli backwards.

Completely bush league in my opinion. The game is over at that point. You're not going to cause a fumble. You're only going to get people hurt.

[Jay@Section12]

Re: Non-Colts thread

Completely bush league in my opinion. The game is over at that point. You're not going to cause a fumble. You're only going to get people hurt.

I'd agree completely if it were a 2-score game. I haven't made up my mind in a one-score game. How often do teams go to the kneel-down with just a one-score lead? I honestly don't know. I think the clock should decide when the game is over, not one of the coaches acting unilaterally. I think you wait for the losing team to surrender, not just have the winning team dictate the end of the game before the clock is out.

But I don't completely buy the injury argument that much either. These guys are in pads for one thing, and in that situation you aren't going to have two guys colliding at full speed or the scenario that most offensive players get hurt in - twisting and reaching for an extra yard. The offensive guy is already trying to go down.

Again, two-score game, clearly cheap and unneccessary. A one-score game is debatable because I'm not sure the kneel-down is appropriate in the first place.

[dal9]

Re: Non-Colts thread

As I said above, you know its bad when Dan Dierdorf (DAN DIERDORF!!) is proving throughout the broadcast that he's much sharper than the replacement refs.

Now I've been listening to him for most of my life and I enjoy his stories and love of the game, but he's struggled to keep pace with the action for years. He's been turning into John Madden(ing) for years. In fact, I'll bet these refs are so bad that Madden might even be thinking about a comeback. They could blow a call on the field, and then he could talk for five minutes about some rule that only exists in his head while the guys in the booth run a replay from a different game just to see if he'll notice that he's circling the wrong player with his telestrator!

dungy was unbearable on SNF, defending the refs. we know he is a conservative on social issues, guess on econ too!

[Slick Pinkham]

Re: Non-Colts thread

I don't like unwritten rules and I think you play to win, legally, until you can't realistically win anymore. When you are down by one score, you can win on a fumbled snap or QB fumble before he kneels down. Therefore, you try to make that happen, even if the odds are <1%. It's like running to first base on a ground ball out in baseball, to me.

On Mike & Mike this AM, Golic had a great point. The O-linemen should have known the defenders were coming. You know what an " I give up" stance looks like, and you know what a "I'm going to knock your head off" stance looks like. The NYG linemen should have seen they were going to get the second variety. They should have expected it, too.

Different story altogether if the lead were 9 points or more.

[Sollozzo]

Re: Non-Colts thread

Golic is always the voice of reason on that show. He doesn't reflexively overreact to everything like most of the mainstream sports media.

[Slick Pinkham]

Re: Non-Colts thread

Peter King's MMQB starts out with a rant on the poor officiating.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/09/16/week-2/index.html

then he takes Coughlin's stance on the kneeldown play

[BRushWithDeath]

Re: Non-Colts thread

I'd agree completely if it were a 2-score game. I haven't made up my mind in a one-score game. How often do teams go to the kneel-down with just a one-score lead? I honestly don't know. I think the clock should decide when the game is over, not one of the coaches acting unilaterally. I think you wait for the losing team to surrender, not just have the winning team dictate the end of the game before the clock is out.

When they are ahead, the other team is out of timeouts, and kneel downs can run out the clock? Every. Single. Time. Ask Herm Edwards what should be done in that situation.

But I don't completely buy the injury argument that much either. These guys are in pads for one thing, and in that situation you aren't going to have two guys colliding at full speed or the scenario that most offensive players get hurt in - twisting and reaching for an extra yard. The offensive guy is already trying to go down.

It's not the quarterback who is in much risk of getting hurt. It's the offensive lineman who needlessly have to deal with someone diving into their legs for no reason whatsoever.

[Trader Joe]

Re: Non-Colts thread

I think that's the real issue. TB wasn't trying to make a play on the football, they were diving for the offensive lineman's legs to try and disrupt the snap. That is not in the spirit of the game and to me it's no different than going for someone's head. It showed Schiano's true colors to me, I have no idea why he is a head coach in the NFL. Congratulations you had mild success at Rutgers. Big deal.

Schiano being the coach of someone who broke their bloody neck playing football should know better than anyone how dangerous the sport already is, why add an unnecessary play that could have seriously hurt the Giants o-line?

[ECKrueger]

Re: Non-Colts thread

When they are ahead, the other team is out of timeouts, and kneel downs can run out the clock? Every. Single. Time. Ask Herm Edwards what should be done in that situation.

Herm Edwards knows about miraculous finishes to games in the Meadowlands.

The former Jets and Chiefs head coach was part of arguably the most improbable victory in NFL history while playing cornerback for the Philadelphia Eagles in 1978. With his team trailing 17-12 and only seconds remaining, Edwards scooped up a botched handoff from Giants quarterback Joe Pisarcik to Larry Csonka and returned it 26 yards for a touchdown.

So Edwards was not surprised to see Bucs coach Greg Schiano attempt to create his own Miracle in the Meadowlands Sunday against the Giants at MetLife Stadium.

Trailing by a touchdown with five seconds remaining, no timeouts and the ball on the Giants 30-yard line, Schiano ordered his defense in a bunch formation to try and strip the ball from Eli Manning.

The play, in which Manning was knocked to the ground but handled the snap to end the game, drew a strong rebuke from Giants coach Tom Coughlin, who confronted Schiano after the game. Manning called it a cheap shot.

Edwards says Schiano’s decision was the right one, so long as the Bucs were only one score behind.

“I think there’s no wrong answer,’’ Edwards said Monday. “It’s just common sense with coaches and players. Look at the clock, know what the score is, and players know if there’s enough time on the clock and it’s a one score game, you’ve got to know these guys are probably going to fire off so we’ve got to get ready, boys. This thing isn’t over yet. I get that part.

“But when you’re a couple scores down and there’s 20 seconds left on the clock, you’re not winning that game. So be careful, because if you start doing that, somebody may want to pay you back. The coach doesn’t get paid back, it’s the players. If someone takes out your starting right guard and you’re up two scores with five seconds left, it’s not good.’’

While Edwards fumble recovery came during a botched handoff, the Eagles defense had a hand in the play-calling. Two plays before the Pisarcik fumble, the Giants attempted to kneel down and begin to kill the clock. But the Eagles, coached by Dick Vermeil, were taught to play every down.

After the defense surged on the Giants, they decided to call a couple running plays to the middle of the field.

“Our situation in ’78 was this: The Giants actually ran a play and then they turned around the next play and kneeled on it,[/B]’’ Edwards said. “[B]A skirmish occurred. We kind of knocked the center over, knocked Joe Piscarsik over.’’

According to Edwards, a week earlier Piscarsik had refused to run a play sent in late during the game form the Eagles’ offensive coordinator.

“Once the skirmish started, when they kneeled on the ball, they get back in the huddle, they run another running play,’’ Edwards said. “It goes for about five (yards). Now, the clock is going down to 26 seconds. They call a play in and say, “Now we’re going to run it again.’ Guys in the huddle are saying, “There’s no need to run it again. We’re under 30 seconds. We’re going to kneel on the ball.’ Joe is arguing, ‘coach said run it.’ Joe is still reflecting on what happened to him last week.

(Fullback Doug) Kotar comes to the line of scrimmage. I’m actually talking to Kotar. He thinks they’re kneeling. I shake his hand before the play even started. (Jim) Clack comes to center, he’s looking at the 40-second clock and Joe is looking back at Clark like we’re going to run the play. Clack is nervous because the 40-second clock is running down and he hikes the ball before Joe is ready. I watch the snap. Joe gets the ball, the timing of the run is off, Csonka comes through the line, it hits off his hip and I’m going if I can get this ball off the bounce I can score.’’

After the Miracle in the Meadowlands, teams developed the ‘victory formation,’ where helpless to stop the clock, they place a defensive back or receiver behind the center in case there is a fumble.

Edwards said the unfortunate thing about Sunday’s game against the Giants is that the kneel down debate has overshadowed what otherwise was a terrific game.

“This was a very emotional game,’’ Edwards said. “This has kind of become bigger than the game and it should’ve become that when the two coaches are head coaches. It’s one of those deals, maybe Tom could’ve handled it better. You call him the next day. But now it’s out there and we’re going to talk about it, we’re going to make it an issue.

“I don’t think there’s a wrong answer, but this is the answer. You talk about player safety. Don’t jeopardize players when you don’t have to.’’

That’s the key to Edwards. If the Bucs try this while trailing two scores with seconds remaining, then he’s not on board.

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bucs/content/herm-edwards-supports-schianos-attempt-miracle-meadowlands-ii-vs-giants

[Trader Joe]

Re: Non-Colts thread

I think the point Brush was trying to make was that if the Giants had just knelt down on that play they would have won.

[Slick Pinkham]

Re: Non-Colts thread

I think that's the real issue. TB wasn't trying to make a play on the football, they were diving for the offensive lineman's legs to try and disrupt the snap.

It looks to me like they WERE trying to make a play on the football, as they actually got to Manning and knocked him over.

video is here:

http://www.nesn.com/2012/09/justin-tuck-among-giants-upset-with-greg-schiano-promises-cheap-shot-on-eli-manning-wont-be-forgotte.html