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Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

    We’re going to approach this one from two fronts tonight first I’m going to talk about something positive and offer a lifeline to the drowning fan base, then I’m going to deal with reality.

    So to start off with I will remind everyone that this is a seven game series, this was just one game and while it may feel like we should just forfeit the rest of the games rest assured the NBA will not allow us to do that.

    So we can come right back out Wednesday night and try and redeem this loss.

    As bad as this felt, and believe me it felt pretty bad, there were moments that in truth we really had chances to change the outcome of this game. If Ariza just hits 50% of his three point shots, which is still one hell of a clip to shoot at, this is a different ball game. In fact while they didn’t shoot the volume of three’s that Atlanta did if they just hit 40-50% of their three’s (still a hell of a clip) instead of 63% then this is a different ball game.

    We never really were out of this game until the end of the 4th quarter, so there is that. Okay I’ve given you all of the positive I can for one night, now the reality.

    While we never really were out of the game we never really were in it either. Oh sure we had runs where we looked like we had a pulse and got the lead down to where it was manageable and even took a slight lead in the 2nd but we had to spend all of our energy just trying to stay caught up and we could not maintain the effort.

    I do believe that we can control the Wizards three point shooting but what I have no faith in is our ability to hit an open shot. So many times in the first quarter we would hit the open man only to have them clank off a wide open shot and well we all know how the rebounding went. So just like with the Hawks the Wizards were able to pretty much pack the paint and dare us to shoot. However unlike the Hawks the Wizards have some great interior defenders and Gortat interior help defense tonight was just out of this world good.

    Also I can’t stress this enough, we have got to stop letting teams jump out to big leads where we have to play from behind all night long. I know that is easier said than done but we have got to figure it out.

    The rebounding was so atrocious that I don’t even know what to say. Well yes I do and people aren’t going to like it.

    We are soft as a baby’s ***. Why in the name of God anyone ever considers us a physical team is beyond me. For all of David West’s strength and ability he does not put out hard fouls or impose himself in the post. We all know about Roy so I won’t even bother but then you go to Scola and well as sad as this is to say he may have been our most physical player out there tonight. Mahinmi was absolutely useless and well that just covered all of our bigs.

    We just simply lost this game because we could not match the effort of Drew ****ing Gooden on the boards. Do you know how hard it was for me to sit there and watch Drew Gooden destroy our front line?

    I mean I get Gortat and Nene they are both horses and very physical, but Gooden? If our front line were Generals for the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2 each of them would take turns eviscerating themselves with their swords out of a sense of honor and shame.

    There is just no excuse on the planet earth why we let Drew Gooden destroy us on the glass.

    Okay I’m going to go ahead and deal with once again the elephant in the room. I do NOT care what Roy Hibbert’s problem is. I do NOT care if he is injured, has a physical or mental ailment or has problems at home.

    NONE OF THAT MATTERS TO ME.

    If he is incapable of playing then sit him, period. He not only was ineffective tonight but he actually was a detriment to our club as his best contribution came in the 3rd quarter when he fouled Gortat from behind and was forced to the bench.

    I don’t ask for much from Roy. He doesn’t have to score a lot of points and he doesn’t even have to grab a lot of rebounds or block a ton of shots.

    But he has to do something. Rebounding is a combination of positioning and effort and Roy had neither tonight.

    Now as bad as Roy was, and he was just God awful, Ian Mahinmi was no better. For as great as he played in the Atlanta series he was that bad tonight. In fact I am going to say that the Wizards are going to be a bad matchup for Ian because where his speed and athleticism was an advantage vs. the Hawks, his lack of strength is going to be an issue vs. the Wizards. I know this is never going to happen in a million years but right now we really need to see if LaVoy Allen could give us some minutes in this series.

    Also I know this is a pipe dream but has there been any form of official announcement about Bynum yet from the team? I don’t even think he has been to the past few home games. Believe me if there ever was a series we could use him, this is it.

    We have depended on our wings to handle the load on the boards all season long but we now are facing an opponent that offers up bigs that are physical, quick and somewhat athletic. We need our bigs to counter them, but I do not know if they can or not.

    One defensive thing I believe we are going to have to change is Paul George guarding Trevor Ariza. Ariza is a spot up shooter and Paul just can not stand being that disengaged during a defensive stand. So he hedges off of Ariza and tonight we saw the end result of that. I do not believe that Ariza can continue at this type of clip, if he did then he will be in the record book, but he can be a factor all series long. So either Lance or Hill are going to need to go hang out with him.

    Here is my real problem. I was afraid of Atlanta because of our inability to play well, in other words I didn’t think a whole lot of the Hawks. But the Wizards are a different animal. Their starting five is better at 3 of the 5 spots and we break even on one. The one matchup that should have been in our favor tonight was not there, as Ariza outplayed George.

    But again it was just one game so we will see if we can come back Wednesday.

    Let’s do grades.

    Paul George: C

    Don’t let that final stat line fool you, he really didn’t have a good game. He could not hit any shot tonight and as I said above he could not force himself to stay with Ariza and was burned time after time because of it. This is the one spot on the floor where we were supposed to have somewhat of an advantage, however I’ve seen Ariza enough to know that he is a tough defender and I’ve seen him hit like this before. We are going to need a hell of a lot more from him than this if we hope to advance.

    David West: B-

    West once again allowed himself to be baited into another idiotic technical because he didn’t like the fact that Drew Gooden was being physical. IMO Drew Gooden had every right to stand at the mid court symbol and pound his chest and scream ala Tarzan. West was the only one of our starters who actually brought it all game long but even he wasn’t all that great. To his credit the Wizards big men are just a load to handle and he was getting no help.

    Roy Hibbert: F

    Again I don’t care what his issue is, this game is unacceptable from Solomon Hill let alone Roy Hibbert. If you can’t play for whatever reason then don’t. Let someone else get on the court who can do something, anything. Oh congrats to Roy on setting this record, he is now the first all-star player in NBA history to post 0 points and 0 rebounds in two post season games.

    Lance Stephenson: C-

    To much Rucker Park in his game at times tonight, very sloppy with the ball and missed shots that he often hits. Also I’m not sure he even defended anyone tonight as any of the wings actually lit up our club. We might as well address this right now, when he was taken out in the 3rd he and Frank had words. In fact Frank went down and actually said something (not nice) to him when he was standing in front of Herb. This was not a good game from Lance.

    George Hill: C

    I don’t know, he didn’t play bad but I never felt like he did much either. He had a run there at the end when he got some three’s to elevate his scoring total but overall did that feel like an 18 point game to anyone else? It didn’t to me.

    Luis Scola: C+

    Whenever I hear someone talk about Roy’s value in blocking shots I think about games like tonight when Scola had as many blocks as he did. He also had 12 points and 5 boards. As sad as this is to say he was probably the most physical player we had tonight and he was still demolished by Drew Gooden.

    Evan Turner: C-

    Hit a couple of shots and got to the line a couple of times but once again provided the defensive tenacity of a three toed sloth. Not sure what to make of him at times but for whatever reason he just doesn’t work in our system very well. Yes I am aware of the criticism that our system is flawed and I won’t argue against it.

    Ian Mahinmi: F

    It is reprehensible to be that big, that athletic and that strong and to play 12 min of ball and not grab a single rebound. Rim protection means nothing when you just get out muscled and out hustled.

    C.J. Watson: B-

    Did what you would expect from a backup point guard. In fact I will say that for whatever reason our offense just runs better when he is on the floor. He hit shots and he didn’t blow on defense.

    I’m not grading Copeland.

    Look it’s this simple we have to come out Wednesday and play from the start of the game and we absolutely have to match their effort on the glass and in the paint.

    Again it is just one game however the same problems have been creeping up on us for over 2 months now.

    Here is some Zakk Wylde to sooth you into a new day.




    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

    Do they keep numbers for amount of uncontested jump shots missed? We have to be leading the league over the last few months. No wonder teams will let us shoot them. Larry is probably kicking himself right now for not going out and getting a Korver or Redick when he had the chance. We have NOBODY who is automatic if left wide open.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

      I'd give Copeland an A for coming in and hitting that three. That's what he's paid to do. Just sad that he didn't get to play more.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

        Originally posted by Strummer View Post
        I'd give Copeland an A for coming in and hitting that three. That's what he's paid to do. Just sad that he didn't get to play more.
        And who does he guard on the other end? Nene or Gortat?
        2015, 2016, 2019 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champions - DC Dreamers

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

          Originally posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
          And who does he guard on the other end? Nene or Gortat?
          I don't buy the theory that Copeland can't guard anyone. And did I say that Copeland should start? Neither Nene nor Gortat played 48 minutes. Can a backup Copeland guard a backup power forward? It'd be nice to know. What we do know is that Copeland can shoot. We could have used that tonight.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

            I know that many have focused on the 0 for 0 from Hibbert and Mahinmi.....but the Entire Starting Lineup going 20 for 58 ( that's 34% ) is terrible with PG24, Lance and West going 14 for 45. I'm glad that West, PG24 and Lance at least were 14 for 15 from the FT line. True...it's not as pathetic as Hibbert ( mostly ) and Mahinmi not showing up AT ALL ( I'm not giving them a pass at all )....but both West, PG24 and Lance really have to get their scoring going.

            As Peck said in the Game 7 Odd Thoughts......the Pacers score...and we win. It's that easy.

            Another thing....maybe they are tired and fatigued.....but the effort was lacking on both ends of the floor. TOO MANY TIMES, all I saw were the Starters doing what we were all doing from Home or at BLF....SIMPLY WATCHING the damn ball and not fighting, scrounging and scrapping for a damn rebound....whether it be an Offensive or Defensive rebound. Effort and energy goes a long way....it's NOT that hard.
            Last edited by CableKC; 05-06-2014, 04:11 AM.
            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

              Originally posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
              And who does he guard on the other end? Nene or Gortat?
              I'm okay with Copeland guarding Nene....I think that he's capable of holding his ground against Nene. But realistically....we have no way of knowing until Vogel makes a change.
              Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                Originally posted by Peck View Post
                But he has to do something. Rebounding is a combination of positioning and effort and Roy had neither tonight.
                Peck, I don't think that this was case tonight. Frankly, Roy had a very small number of rebound opportunities tonight. I did a break down on Washington's offensive rebounds when Hibbert was on the floor in the Hibbert thread and I found out that Roy can only be blamed for 1 or 2 of Washington's offensive boards. Allow to quote myself:

                Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                Only 7 of Washington's 17 rebounds happened when Roy was on the court and he also committed a loose ball foul on Gortat once which essentialy gave them an offensive rebound. Do you know who grabbed those rebounds, though? Drew Gooden grabbed 3 of them, Bradley Beal grabbed 2 of them and Trevor Ariza grabbed 1 of them as well. Is Hibbert responsible for those players?

                Actually, nba.com is awesome right now and we can watch the replay of every single play that happened on the court. Here are the offensive rebounds that the Pacers gave up when Roy was on the court:

                Offensive Rebound #1:

                http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...&GameEventID=3

                That's the first play of the game. Wall misses a jumper, the rebound goes long and Ariza grabs it. You cannot blame this to Roy.

                Offensive Rebound #2:

                http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=257

                Beal misses a jumper, Roy inexplicably abandons his rebounding position in order to try and contest Beal's jumper and then commits a stupid foul on Gortat that probably wouldn't have grabbed the rebound anyway. You can pin this one on Roy although it wasn't technically an offensive rebound for the Wiz.

                Offensive Rebound #3:

                http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=429

                Washington posts up Nene on Hibbert in the right side to try and take advantage of Nene's speed. Roy does a great job at contesting Nene's shot and forces the miss. Unfortunately, Drew Gooden was able to tip the shot in over Scola. You cannot blame this to Roy.

                Offensive Rebound #4 and #5:

                http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=440

                Roy contests Beal's drive and forces another team. Unfortunately, David West cannot box out Drew Gooden who tips the shot twice. The announcer said that Gooden is working harder than the Pacers and he's absolutely right. Once again, you cannot blame this to Roy.

                Offensive Rebound #6:

                Unfortunately, nba.com's play-by-play replay is wrong in this case and it shows the altercation between West and Gooden instead of the play. In any case, this play is written down as a 20' ft missed jumper by Beal in which he gets the long rebound and then commits the turnover by passing the ball out of bounds. Centers rarely are to blame for long rebounds but I'll withhold judgement on this since a replay is not available.

                Offensive Rebound #7 and #8:

                http://stats.nba.com/cvp.html?GameID...ameEventID=473

                Nene misses a jumper at the top of the key. Roy Hibbert boxes out Marcin Gortat, Paul George is looming close to the basket for the defensive rebound but Lance Stephenson allows Trevor Ariza to get in front of him and get a hand on the ball. Roy cannot put both hands on the ball since Gortat is holding his left arm and the ball is knocked loose. Paul George tries to get in the scuffle to ge the ball but the ball goes through his legs and ends up on Bradley Beal. You can blame this on Roy Hibbert because he wasn't able to hold onto the ball if you want. I'd say that we wouldn't give up this offensive rebound if Lance didn't let Ariza to get in there or if a foul was called when Gortat was holding Roy's left arm.

                Let's go to the second part of the play now. The Wizards get the ball and reset. Wall pounds the ball and asks for a high PnR with Gortat. Gortat gives him a screen with 10 seconds on the clock and Wall immediatedly opts for a mid-range jumper. Roy contests Wall's jumper and forces yet another miss. Unfortunately, no one puts a body on Gortat who runs from the top of the key to the basket for the offensive board and gets fouled by Hill. You cannot blame this on Roy either.

                Those were the all the offensive rebounds that we gave up with Roy on the court, my friend. You're free to count them with them. How many of those offensive rebounds were Roy's fault? 1? 2? That's it. Anything else wasn't his responsibility.

                So, I'll say this again. Roy wasn't a part of the rebounding problem tonight. Yes, he played horribly but he wasn't the reason why we allowed Washington to get 17 offensive rebounds. Even if Hibbert got every rebound in his vicinity the Wizards would still have 16 offensive rebounds and Roy would only end up with 2 boards.
                It's important to know why and how we're giving up offensive boards. Against Atlanta it was mostly due to missed jumpers leading to long rebounds. This wasn't the case tonight. The Wizards did grab some long rebounds but one of the biggest reason was that their PFs (and most importantly Drew Gooden) outhustled our PFs. I'm not trying to say that our Cs helped but they weren't the ones that allowed Drew Gooden to have a party on the offensive boards.
                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                  Originally posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
                  And who does he guard on the other end? Nene or Gortat?
                  The one that Scola guarded. Drew Gooden or Trevor Booker.
                  Originally posted by IrishPacer
                  Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                    I remember when the Team used to run more of a Man-To-Man offense. This was because the Team was reliant on Hibbert and Mahinmi and trusting them to defend the paint....which was considered highly reliable until the last 3 months. I noticed SEVERAL TIMES when the Backcourt would sag off the 3pt shooter ( I'm looking at whoever defended Ariza ) to help protect the paint and then had to rush back to try and contest the 3pt shot. This is worse when you have a VERY CAPABLE passer like Wall that can get the ball to anyone on the perimeter.

                    Could the Team's lack of confidence in Hibbert on the defensive end, Mahinmi's lack of minutes and the eventual West/Scola Frontcourt combination be opening up the 3pt shot for Teams? 10 for 16 3pt defense is pathetic.....but I think that rushing to defend the paint while opening up the floor to the 3pt shooters is causing problems for the defense.

                    I really think that part of the problem is what I mention above...coupled with lack of effort, closing out on the opposing Player and energy.

                    Oh...ONE MORE FRICKIN thing.....I DO NOT WANT PG24 guarding anyone anymore other than Wall or the opposing Team's Starting PG. I don't think Ariza will go off from the 3pt line as long as Lance or GH defends them properly and closes out on them at the 3pt line. I do not know why on earth Vogel continues to not put PG24 on the opposing Team's Starting PG...especially for a Team that is so heavily reliant on Wall to create for others. This was the same for the Hawks and the same for the Wizards. What's important is taking out the engine that makes the offense work....putting PG24 on Wall to force him to work for every point and every pass.
                    Last edited by CableKC; 05-06-2014, 04:29 AM.
                    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                      I remember when the Team used to run more of a Man-To-Man offense. This was because the Team was reliant on Hibbert and Mahinmi and trusting them to defend the paint....which was considered highly reliable until the last 3 months. I noticed SEVERAL TIMES when the Backcourt would sag off the 3pt shooter ( I'm looking at whoever defended Ariza ) to help protect the paint and then had to rush back to try and contest the 3pt shot. This is worse when you have a VERY CAPABLE passer like Wall that can get the ball to anyone on the perimeter.

                      Could the Team's lack of confidence in Hibbert on the defensive end, Mahinmi's lack of minutes and the eventual West/Scola Frontcourt combination be opening up the 3pt shot for Teams? 10 for 16 3pt defense is pathetic.....but I think that rushing to defend the paint while opening up the floor to the 3pt shooters is causing problems for the defense.
                      It's entirely possible. There is only one issue with this theory, imo. Our perimeter defense began to slide long before Roy entered this massive slump. Our perimeter defense began to slide in that West coast trip during late January. Things were still going pretty well on every other front until then but that's when our perimeter D started going south.
                      Originally posted by IrishPacer
                      Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                        It took way too long to figure out that the West pick and pop game was all we had on offense with the terrible outside shooting going. This is the set that will allow for some space to allow Roy to work for post ups or offensive rebounds, and maybe get guys open for better spot ups. First quarters continue to kill us from an offensive standpoint because we don't come close to figuring out what might be working. Still, I can't be mad at our terrible offense continuing to be terrible. It is what it is, pray for rain on Wednesday.
                        You Got The Tony!!!!!!

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                          Roy

                          Lance - Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing

                          PG - stat line wasn't actually that good IMO

                          West - at least he acts like he actually gives a ****

                          Hill - his stat stuffing actually was irrelevant because it didn't come in a winning effort

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                            Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                            Peck, I don't think that this was case tonight. Frankly, Roy had a very small number of rebound opportunities tonight. I did a break down on Washington's offensive rebounds when Hibbert was on the floor in the Hibbert thread and I found out that Roy can only be blamed for 1 or 2 of Washington's offensive boards. Allow to quote myself:



                            It's important to know why and how we're giving up offensive boards. Against Atlanta it was mostly due to missed jumpers leading to long rebounds. This wasn't the case tonight. The Wizards did grab some long rebounds but one of the biggest reason was that their PFs (and most importantly Drew Gooden) outhustled our PFs. I'm not trying to say that our Cs helped but they weren't the ones that allowed Drew Gooden to have a party on the offensive boards.
                            Actually you know what, I want to give you a full chance here.

                            Between all of the post game threads and the Roy threads and this thread you have been responding to what other people have said about Hibberts game.

                            How about this.

                            You tell me what you thought of his game tonight, were you satisfied with it? Don't use other peoples views of Roy (mine included) to make your statement about your thoughts about Roy's game tonight. Let's just let you give us a full report on what you thought of his overall play, because I honestly am confused by what I think you think of his game.


                            Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Round 2 Game 1 Here we go again...

                              I know that Paul George carried us through the Hawks series, so I'm not going to roast him too much for his awful offensive game last night. Bad shooting nights happen, though we are certainly in trouble if he shoots like that all series. However, his defense (or lack thereof) on Ariza was awful. If he guards Ariza next game and continues to be unwilling to close out on him, then Ariza is going to keep looking like 2008 Paul Pierce against us. We can rue all day about the fact that another player shot a ridiculously good percentage against us, but quality NBA players are going to routinely torch you if they get WIDE OPEN looks. For a guy who gets as much defensive hype as PG, I found his defense last night to be unacceptable.

                              Last night was pretty much the epitome of a "bad Lance" game that people criticize him for. His defense on Beal and whoever he guarded was bad, and he was just tough to watch on offense. Way too much dribbling, forced ugly takes, and bad shots. Sprinkle in Peck's observation of him and Vogel having words, and last night was "bad Lance" at his worst.

                              While Lance and PG were both pretty bad last night, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since they were both so huge against Atlanta. That being said, they gotta play well in Game 2 on both ends or we will be in big trouble.

                              I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I know what's going on with Hibbert, but all I know is that it's virtually unprecedented for an "all-star" to become the worst starter in the playoffs in the season in which he was just an all-star. Hibbert becoming a ghost has just had a domino effect that has zapped our team of its identity. Everyone on the roster is well aware of his slump, and it's just infected the entire team.

                              Shame we wasted a good Scola game last night.

                              During the Hawks series, I always felt that our struggles were far more about us not playing up to par than it was about the Hawks. But I'm legitimately scared of this Washington team. I don't like to overreact about one game, but I'm not going to lie that I found myself thinking that their starters were just better than ours. That is a very tough starting lineup. I really like Gortat's effort. That guy is all over the place. Also, I'm worried that Wall only went 4-14 from the field. We're going to be in trouble when he goes off offensively. He dominated us in other ways though.

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