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I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

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  • #1

    I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

    As everyone knows, Peck and I have been arguing back and forth about Jeff Foster for quite awhile now. But lately several other posters, who I have a lot of respect for, have also been arguing with me about Jeff.

    So I want everyone who cares to give an opinion on Jeff to do so in this thread.

    I'm beginning to think maybe I need to take another look at Foster.

    First, let me explain what my opinion of Jeff is.

    Foster is my second favorite player on the Pacers team, I freely admit that and I'm not ashamed of that. Jeff is a role player, no question about that, he has problems scoring, is not a good shooter and overall does not bring much to the Pacers offensively, except offensive rebounds and the willingness to pass the ball to others and to get out of the way. Although he has scored a few times in the low post and has even hit a few jumpers. His free throw shooting is average for a big guy, 64%.

    The next big problem some of you have about him is he is not very "big". can't argue with that, he will never overpower anyone, and he gets overpowered from time to time.

    I guess I'm trying to say, I know his faults, and if the Pacers get a player who is better than Jeff, I would be in favor of taking Jeff out of the starting and finishing lineups. But I'm positive about one thing, none of the possible replacements, DH, Cro, Pollard are right now better than Jeff.

    Let me also say I think Jeff should play right at 25 minutes per game, his talents are maximized when he lays 25 minutes per game.

    You might be asking yourself why do you like him so much, all you've done is criticize Jeff, just trying to be balanced and demonstrate that I have a balanced opinion of the player.


    In order of importance.

    1) Foster is an energy player. You say big whoop, anyone can be an energy player. Not true. It takes talent to be an energy player, and it is more involved than "just playing hard". The effect that these type of players have on the whole team is very had to quantify, and you really don't notice it until they'll gone

    2) Foster's defense. This is where I get into some trouble. I think Jeff is a very good defender. No, he won't make either of the NBA all defensive teams, but he is not too far from making that team. Yes, Jeff struggles against the really big players, such as Shaq, Z, and a few others. But for 90% of the players he guards he does a great job.

    I loved watching a play on Sunday, somehow Jeff was switched out on Earl Watson, you could sense that Earl thought, well I'll just go right around Jeff, well he tried twice and could not do it so Earl finally passed to someone else. Earl tried once, and then backed out and tried again, and he could not beat Jeff off the dribble. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting Jeff start guarding small forward, SG or PG. But Jeff's quick hands and feet enables him to defend players very well. Many of you don't se this, but I'm just glad that Rick and Mike Brown see this.

    3) Rebounding - won't say much about this. Jeff is great at blocking out, but no he is not going to overpower anyone, and no he is not great at getting the tough rebounds by going through people.


    Let me end by addressing to arguments that have come up lately.

    1) Jeff is of no use against the Heat or the Pistons. Afterall, wasn't Jeff replaced by Cro and then Al in the final games of the series against the Pistons. (brings back memories of how little Brad played in the last few games of the Celtics series the year before) Jeff defends Sheed very well, better than anyone else on the roster, so I don't buy the argument that he is of no use against the Pistons. Against the Heat, well no one can guard Shaq, Pollard does a better job, and we have not seen DH guard him yet.

    2) J.O. needs a big strong big guy to play alongside him. I tend to agree that a big strong player next to J.O might be better, especially without Ron and AL. Keep in mind I predicted that DH will replace Jeff at some point next season if DH can get into NBA shape, but I'll also say DH has a long way to go. However 90% of the time Jeff is the perfect complement to J.O. on the defensive end.



    Sorry, I've droned on and on, but I do want your opinions of Jeff
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

    Originally posted by Unclebuck
    1) Foster is an energy player. You say big whoop, anyone can be an energy player. Not true. It takes talent to be an energy player, and it is more involved than "just playing hard". The effect that these type of players have on the whole team is very had to quantify, and you really don't notice it until they'll gone
    Ehhh.....

    I agree: I don't think anyone can be an energy player. But I also don't think it takes a special kind of talent. I think being an energy player is more of a 'persona' if you will. You either have it or you don't, but I don't think it takes talent. I think it is a mindset: a willingness to go for anything and work harder than anyone else to get the ball.

    I am an energy player myself, and much like Foster, I play against bigger people all the time. But it's the determination and aggressive mindset that separates me from the bigger/stronger opponents and allows me to get to loose balls and rebounds. If you look at some other energy players in the NBA, Mark Madsen, Danny Fortson, etc. - these guys are all physically undermatched but are able to get the job done because of their constant pursuit, will, and work ethic.

    Unless you consider this entire attitude as a "talent" - then I agree. And I also cannot stress the importance that these types of players bring to the team.

    That said, as much as I hate to disagree with you UB, in my opinion these types of players are also better coming off the bench.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

      I like what foster brings to the table, however with artest out it magnifies his poor offensive game even more. i love his hustle and his energy but there was a reason he didn't usually close out games last season. as of right now i don't think pollard or harrison should be starting, but if harrison improves he should be fighting for the job next season. i wouldn't mind seeing j.o. play the 5 and cro play the 4 more often down the stretch.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

        Yeah, the guy has limitations. I will look forward to the day when he comes off the bench because DH deserves to start. While we may covet bigger, less one-dimensional players, while he is not as good a player as either of the Davis's, nevertheless he does average 10rpg, more than his predecessors, so what are we complaining about?

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

          I think JF is a helluva guy to have on the team, and was one of DW's masterstrokes to trade for his draft rites.
          I think Jeff is too often over-matched as a starter and is better suited coming off the bench or as a fill-in for an injured starter. But in the long-haul he is NOT what any team out for a ring wants holding down the 5 position, IMO. If a championship caliber team has a non-scoring center then the guy has GOT to be a defensive stopper and dominating rebounder. I don't think any of us envision Jeff as that. He may be a bulldog but he is not dominant. He may be pesky and worrisome, but he doesnt scare you. Nobody plans their game around stopping anything Jeff does.
          Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

            Jeff Foster right now is a mid-level starting NBA center. That's a lot better than what I thought he'd be after the 2002-03 season. However ideally I think he should be that hustle guy off the bench. Nothing would be better for Indiana than for David Harrison to beat him out next year. Jeff will still get his minutes - 25-30 per game - but he'll be in that "disruptor" role.

            Jeff is an excellent defender against athletic PF's and centers. Nobody defends Antoine Walker or Rasheed Wallace better. Jeff's a lousy defender against the true NBA power players. He's physically overmatched.

            And I continue to be amazed that he hasn't developed a solid 15 foot jump shot. IMO that's the difference from him being considered at least a top ten NBA center and mid-level.

            Playing or not playing him at the end of games is a very tough decision. The higher level of bumping and grabbing that's allowed the last few minutes really negates his effectiveness - he misses layups with just modest contact. However he's also one of the better rebounders for Indy. I'd play him with a lead and not play him when you're behind. AC's more dangerous on offense (not better - more dangerous) but not the rebounder or defender.

            The other problem with Jeff is he tends to wear down toward the end of seasons. He did last year - we'll see how that effects him this year.

            Mostly I agree with UB though.
            The poster formerly known as Rimfire

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

              Not much time to post this afternoon...

              There's a time and a place for Foster. But its not "starting". We were able to hide his limitations last season; but this season we're not even taking advantage of the one thing he can do - get offensive rebounds.

              I think he'd make a great backup PF and I think he should be able to play 14-22 mpg on a contending team. That's about the amount of time that he can use to maximize his abilities without hurting the team because of his limitations.

              I do appreciate his hustle, but for last season's team, I think its indisputable that the three so-called "Energy guys" were (1) JO; (2) Ron; and (3) Al. Not coincidentally, last season's top-three players overall and our top-three offensive players and our top-three defensive players. And that's important, because I don't buy into the idea that your "energy player" has to be a guy with a gazillion holes in his game but still plays hard every night. Look at Brian Cardinal as the most recent good example that we've all seen play. He's a thoroughly fundamentally sound player - well coached, etc. (And I hate to say that about a Purdue guy.) Even though he's limited in terms of his upside, he also isn't a "risk" to his own team. He can catch the ball, hit shots when he's open, doesn't turn it over often, etc. And he accepts his role as a guy that brings hustle.

              This all goes back to my theory on role players. And as much as I disliked Isiah, he did get a few things right. The best "Role players" are complete, fundamentally sound players that are willing to accept a lesser role to help thier team win. The best "Role players" are not one-dimensional players who lack the requisite fundamentals to *not* be a liability at either end of the court. (I know that's a double negative... did it make sense?)

              Foster's woefully undersized at C, but if he's on the court with JO, then JO is really playing C anyway, so that argument, although popular, is moot.

              Lastly, I'm not a big fan of fronting the post as the primary defensive strategy. You only front the post when you can not play between the offensive player and the basket. It's an admission of weakness. Now having said that, its completely acceptable to front the post from time-to-time as a "change-up." However, most good PGs know how to deliver a lob pass over the defender that leads to an easy layup, so you've got to have another guy back there that can intimidate/ block the shots from the big guy. Not a guy that only blocks the shots of little guards that penetrate into the lane (Mutombo). And if you've got that guy, he's already playing behind the other team's post player so its also moot.
              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
              And life itself, rushing over me
              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                Jeff Foster is defintley a top ten center in the east he has regular defense.He hustles for the ball and is a well rounded player.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                  Originally posted by ReggieMiller8325
                  Jeff Foster is defintley a top ten center in the east he has regular defense.He hustles for the ball and is a well rounded player.

                  i love foster but he is anything but well-rounded....he has absolutely no offensive game.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                    I love what Jeff brings to the table. He is one of my favorite players. I love his hustle and energy. He is a player who gets you extra possessions with the way he plays. The problem is that he needs to be a backup to do the things he is best at.

                    We had IMO the best Center combo in basketball. With Brad starting and Jeff coming in off the bench that was one area where we were very very strong. All we needed was a better backup pg and sg. We have the sg we still need the pg and now we need the C as well.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                      As a disclaimer, I don't have a strong opinion on Foster one way or the other.

                      Originally posted by indygeezer
                      I think JF is a helluva guy to have on the team, and was one of DW's masterstrokes to trade for his draft rites.
                      Peck will probably jump on this saying that pick we traded to GS turned out to be Troy Murphy.

                      Originally posted by indygeezer
                      But in the long-haul he is NOT what any team out for a ring wants holding down the 5 position, IMO. If a championship caliber team has a non-scoring center then the guy has GOT to be a defensive stopper and dominating rebounder. I don't think any of us envision Jeff as that. He may be a bulldog but he is not dominant. He may be pesky and worrisome, but he doesnt scare you. Nobody plans their game around stopping anything Jeff does.
                      The 96-98 Bulls would be an example against this argument.

                      Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                      Lastly, I'm not a big fan of fronting the post as the primary defensive strategy. You only front the post when you can not play between the offensive player and the basket. It's an admission of weakness. Now having said that, its completely acceptable to front the post from time-to-time as a "change-up." However, most good PGs know how to deliver a lob pass over the defender that leads to an easy layup, so you've got to have another guy back there that can intimidate/ block the shots from the big guy.
                      I would say at least last year, this strategy worked very well with JO coming from the weak side. I strongly believe that all the time off throws our team defensive rythum off.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                        Originally posted by indygeezer

                        If a championship caliber team has a non-scoring center then the guy has GOT to be a defensive stopper and dominating rebounder. I don't think any of us envision Jeff as that. He may be a bulldog but he is not dominant. He may be pesky and worrisome, but he doesnt scare you. Nobody plans their game around stopping anything Jeff does.


                        Well Jeff is certainly not Ben Wallace, nor is he Dale Davis. But I take issue with your last sentence. Perhaps, I am taking your phrasing too literally. But I guarantee teams emphasize that they must keeop jeff off the boards especially offensive. Do they set their whole gameplan on it. Not sure about that, but you don't see teams leave Jeff on the offensive end at least not when the Pacers are about to shoot. Every teams board before the game I'm sure has the phrase "keep a body on Foster"




                        Jay, I''m a 100% believer in fronting the post. You can't let the ball into the post easily. That was one thing I hated about the 1998 through 2000 teams.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                          Originally posted by NewType
                          Peck will probably jump on this saying that pick we traded to GS turned out to be Troy Murphy.
                          I haven't decided what I think about Murphy. The guy can obviously put up numbers but the team doesn't seem to suffer without him - they've won two games and almost beat Phoenix and Sacto since he's been injured.

                          I've sort of assumed that his defense sucks but I don't really know that.
                          The poster formerly known as Rimfire

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                            Originally posted by NotLosingButWinning
                            i love foster but he is anything but well-rounded....he has absolutely no offensive game.
                            Jeff Foster may not be an offensive threat, but he does have a game. The man has nearly twice as many offensive rebounds as anyone on the team. His 3.9 offensive boards would be just behind Okafor for tops in the league if he had played all of his games. Those are possessions that the team would not have had before. He is not a good shooter, but he is more effective this year than previous around the basket. He is averaging 55% and 9 points a game.

                            Teams will not gameplan around Jeff Foster, but he can do things to make this team win and that is why I think he is valuable for 25-30 minutes. Whether it is as a starter or a backup, I don't care, but this team needs him as a part of this rotation.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: I want everyone's opinion on Jeff Foster

                              I think Jeff is highly underrated in terms of what he brings to this team. As mentioned many times previously, he is a "hustle/energy" player. With Ron out he's really the only one in our starting lineup that fits this description (with the possible exception of Tins).

                              In the right system he's a fantastic contributor. Last year we didn't need him to score. Instead, he was always the guy grabbing boards, boxing out his man, diving for loose balls and getting the garbage baskets.

                              People knock Jeff's offense, but considering we have no plays designed for him you can't really list that as a major liability. He's a garbage-points guy that gets putbacks, easy layups when defenses break down, etc. EVERY TEAM needs one or more guys like this. Whether or not he should be starting really depends on how he fits in with other players' roles in the lineup. He's a perfect addition when you already have three or four potential scoring threats on the floor. With Ron out and Reggie starting, however, I can see why some would rather see DH in the lineup.

                              Honestly, though, I think he represents everything that is supposed to be admirable in an "Indiana"-style basketball player. Hustle. Energy. A determination that allows one to make up for limited talents. In other words, he's one of my favorite guys on the team to watch, whether he's starting or not.

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