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POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

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  • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

    Originally posted by Heisenberg View Post
    on paper? yeah, it is. but is what it is. whenever Roy's on the floor Budzenholdzer is immediately getting Antic off the bench to check in. I'm all for trying to find All Star Roy again, but I just don't think it can happen against Atlanta. I mean, let's not act like Roy was an All Star because he was putting up 20+ a night or something, he's obviously not much of an offensive threat. He gets paid what he does and gets the hype (or lack thereof recently) because of his rim protection. Atlanta runs a 5 out a ton against us, it's not about Roy being crappy or whatever, it's just not a scheme he can defend. When they're running Brand and Scott, OK, give Roy some burn, but Budz'll just put Antic in immediately.
    You are right IF we ask Roy to challenge Antic he is almost completely useless, but do we really need to ask Roy to challenge Antic? To me you just tell Roy to do what he has done all year and if a 32 percent 3 point shooter hits 2 or 3 on 7 or 8 attempts big deal. Why adjust to a scrub like Antic? Who cares if he lives behind the arc jacks up 3s if we keep making Atlanta play like they did tonight (all jump shots no points in the paint) that has to favor us. Game 1 yes they hit a ton of 3s but they also got to the FT line a ton and got a lot of paint points from Teague penetration. If you make them live and die ONLY by the 3 and take those other 2 factors away I think that can only be to our advantage. So to tell Roy to play totally differently because of a scrub like Antic seems like the wrong thing to do. Let Roy continue to protect the rim and let Antic try his best to win this series for them that is a challenge we should embrace. Let Teague win the series or Antic? I know what I am choosing.

    Comment


    • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

      Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
      G. Hill's biggest enemy is himself. The only thing holding him back is his willingness to shoot which is just bizarre in the NBA. The guy has a ton of shots and tools to score and way too often stays passive. It is so odd to have that as an issue to work through and it's especially odd for a guy who was one of the best scorers in Indiana high school basketball history, put up huge scoring numbers against guys like Eric Gordon, Mike Conley, Courtney Lee, etc. it's just weird. Hill is an extremely gifted scorer. He needs to keep playing that way.
      I think that this is mostly a result of being a PG in our system. CJ suffers from this as well at times despite being absolutely on fire from 3 ever since his return. It seems that our PGs are told to one of the following 3 things:

      1) Wait for the back screens to unfold and give the ball to one of our wings in motion.
      2) Play the Pick and Pop with West.
      3) Throw an entry pass to Hibbert for a post-up.

      And after they do those 3 things they are told to hang around the 3 point line and wait for a pass.

      This issue seriously looks like it is our offensive scheme since that's exactly what DJ Augustin was doing last year as well. The only PG that is trying to drive and dish recently is Donald Sloan and that's mainly because he's a 3rd PG that has driving and dishing as his main offensive weapon.
      People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

      Originally posted by IrishPacer
      Empty vessels make the most noise.

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      • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

        Originally posted by presto123 View Post
        With the money gained by letting Turner and Lance walk. I like Lance, but I actually think it might be the right move.
        There is no $$$ gained by letting Lance and ET walk...both are FA and the Pacers are already near the Salary Cap. At most....they can offer a Player the Full MLE ( or possibly slightly over the full MLE ). But they could still offer a FA the Full MLE and ( likely ) re-sign ET ( who I assume will probably will get maybe $6 to 7 mil ? if that is what Bird wants to do ) but probably not Lance ( assuming that he goes for $11+ mil on the FA Market ).
        Last edited by CableKC; 04-23-2014, 02:17 AM.
        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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        • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

          Originally posted by aamcguy View Post
          Defenses still send 2-3 guys at Roy every single time he touches the ball. It's the only way to stop him from being a 50% shooter from down low, and it's proven to be incredibly effective the past month or so. He needs to get back to thinking he's one of the best passing big men in the league again. He's not, but it means he will look to pass and teams will start to pay for collapsing their defence and we will have a true inside-outside offense again.
          Good point as well. Webber said in the broadcast that Hibbert is not a post-up option and several people in various forums have said that he is not supposed to be a post-up option as well but I disagree with it. Hibbert is a post-up option. That's how he has scored the majority of his points in his career. That's how he excelled at last season's playoffs. He posted up on Atlanta's Horford and Petro. He posted up on New York's Chandler and Martin. He posted up on whoever Miami threw at him and he was by far our best player in that game 7 in Miami (that's for those that question his emotional make-up).

          That said, we also need to put the ball in West's hands. That's how we attacked Miami in last year's ECF. We runned a PnP for West and then had Hibbert duck in for a quick post-up from the weak side when West got the ball. That's how we scored the first basket of tonight's game as well. We need to do this a lot more.
          People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

          Originally posted by IrishPacer
          Empty vessels make the most noise.

          Comment


          • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

            Originally posted by VideoVandal View Post
            Curious as to what you guys think our approach to "establishing Hibbert" the rest of the series should be.....I'm sort of torn.

            On one hand I think Webber makes some great points that we should just abandon his post up game all together and tell him to focus on rebounding and shot blocking, but on the other hand I still believe that this team only goes as far as Hibbert takes us as much as some may hate to hear that. The reason we almost got over the Miami hump last year and the reason we've been such a good playoff team the last few years has been in large part because of Hibbert.

            So do we continue to feed him and try to keep giving him good looks in an effort to get him going at the risk that more bad shot making may ensue? Or do we abandon that part of our offense all together and pursue other offensive options each time down the floor? Like I said I'm torn but leaning toward we need to keep trying to establish him.
            As many have said.....the Hawks are simply a really bad matchup for him. I want him to play...cuz I do think that it causes some match up issues.....specifically when Antic isn't on the floor.....but I'm more than willing to let Antic get his 3pt shot while Hibbert lays back in the paint waiting for Teague to drive to the hoop.

            I just don't want him to get the automatic 28+ minutes....I think that he's still somewhat useful. As many have suggested.....don't bench him entirely....just scale back his minutes, increase Mahinmi's minutes while subbing him a lot earlier, boast Scola's and Copeland's ( if needed ) minutes and scale back Hibbert's role on the offense when the Defense is camped out in the paint.
            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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            • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

              Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
              Good point as well. Webber said in the broadcast that Hibbert is not a post-up option and several people in various forums have said that he is not supposed to be a post-up option as well but I disagree with it. Hibbert is a post-up option. That's how he has scored the majority of his points in his career. That's how he excelled at last season's playoffs. He posted up on Atlanta's Horford and Petro. He posted up on New York's Chandler and Martin. He posted up on whoever Miami threw at him and he was by far our best player in that game 7 in Miami (that's for those that question his emotional make-up).

              That said, we also need to put the ball in West's hands. That's how we attacked Miami in last year's ECF. We runned a PnP for West and then had Hibbert duck in for a quick post-up from the weak side when West got the ball. That's how we scored the first basket of tonight's game as well. We need to do this a lot more.
              No doubt he is a post up option throughout his career. The dilemma however is currently he is NOT a post up option, I mean it is hard to argue with the futility of Hibberts offensive numbers of late. That is why I was curious to the pulse of the forums on do we try to reestablish the post up scoring Hibbert we've all seen before, or do we accept his current futility for what it is and abadon it? Again I still think we need to establish it and I think tonight's approach was good we got him great looks. How he continues to miss is puzzling but I do think it is a part of our offense we have to continue to try to exploit even if in the short run it leads to more 1 for 7s eventually he has to score again right?

              Comment


              • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                Good point as well. Webber said in the broadcast that Hibbert is not a post-up option and several people in various forums have said that he is not supposed to be a post-up option as well but I disagree with it. Hibbert is a post-up option. That's how he has scored the majority of his points in his career. That's how he excelled at last season's playoffs. He posted up on Atlanta's Horford and Petro. He posted up on New York's Chandler and Martin. He posted up on whoever Miami threw at him and he was by far our best player in that game 7 in Miami (that's for those that question his emotional make-up).

                That said, we also need to put the ball in West's hands. That's how we attacked Miami in last year's ECF. We runned a PnP for West and then had Hibbert duck in for a quick post-up from the weak side when West got the ball. That's how we scored the first basket of tonight's game as well. We need to do this a lot more.
                One thing that I have noticed is that the Hawks have completely packed in the paint when the Pacers either drive or the ball goes inside. This ( obviously ) makes it harder for Hibbert to score cuz the guy is like a frickin pinball with his high center of gravity and lack of any real strength to really battle inside the paint. But I also recall several drives to the hoop where there are 3 to 4 Hawks inside or very close to the paint where GH and/or Lance tried to dump it off to Hibbert while they drew the defense. But because the defense instantly collapsed and it was so packed into the paint......any pass inside the paint ended up as a turnover ( cuz of all the traffic and clutter in the paint...which led to Hibbert fumbling the ball ).

                I'm not saying that Hibbert isn't "butterfingers" as of late and that he should have caught the ball....it's a combination of Hibbert's lack of offense/confidence and IMHO the wrong type of pass when there are too many defenders in the paint.

                One thing that I hope someone on the Coaching Staff takes from this is that when someone is attacking / driving to the paint.....they look both inside and outside for the open pass when they draw the defense.
                Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                Comment


                • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                  Originally posted by VideoVandal View Post
                  No doubt he is a post up option throughout his career. The dilemma however is currently he is NOT a post up option, I mean it is hard to argue with the futility of Hibberts offensive numbers of late. That is why I was curious to the pulse of the forums on do we try to reestablish the post up scoring Hibbert we've all seen before, or do we accept his current futility for what it is and abadon it? Again I still think we need to establish it and I think tonight's approach was good we got him great looks. How he continues to miss is puzzling but I do think it is a part of our offense we have to continue to try to exploit even if in the short run it leads to more 1 for 7s eventually he has to score again right?
                  For this series? I'm leaning towards making Hibbert a 5th scoring option ( a la Foster ) where he just scores like Mahinmi does...on touch backs or bunnies...while focusing on Defense, rebounding and not falling down so much.

                  But for the rest of the Playoffs ( assuming we make it that far )? No way. The Hawks are just a terrible match up for Hibbert...plain and simple. But that doesn't mean that you don't play him.....just use him purely for defense while splitting far more time with Mahinmi.
                  Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                  Comment


                  • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                    Originally posted by VideoVandal View Post
                    You are right IF we ask Roy to challenge Antic he is almost completely useless, but do we really need to ask Roy to challenge Antic? To me you just tell Roy to do what he has done all year and if a 32 percent 3 point shooter hits 2 or 3 on 7 or 8 attempts big deal. Why adjust to a scrub like Antic? Who cares if he lives behind the arc jacks up 3s if we keep making Atlanta play like they did tonight (all jump shots no points in the paint) that has to favor us. Game 1 yes they hit a ton of 3s but they also got to the FT line a ton and got a lot of paint points from Teague penetration. If you make them live and die ONLY by the 3 and take those other 2 factors away I think that can only be to our advantage. So to tell Roy to play totally differently because of a scrub like Antic seems like the wrong thing to do. Let Roy continue to protect the rim and let Antic try his best to win this series for them that is a challenge we should embrace. Let Teague win the series or Antic? I know what I am choosing.
                    Antic is not a scrub, my friend. He is a role player but he is very good at what he does. He is a tough player that will battle for every inch even if he's not a very good athlete, he can shoot, he is a very good passer (excellent choice for late clock in-bound players) and generally understand how an offense works.

                    He is a lot like Copeland in this regard. Neither player was thought of as a major talent when they were young but their play proved that they belong with the big boys. Olympiacos wouldn't win last year's Euroleague title if it wasn't for him.
                    People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                    Originally posted by IrishPacer
                    Empty vessels make the most noise.

                    Comment


                    • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                      Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                      Antic is not a scrub, my friend. He is a role player but he is very good at what he does. He is a tough player that will battle for every inch even if he's not a very good athlete, he can shoot, he is a very good passer (excellent choice for late clock in-bound players) and generally understand how an offense works.

                      He is a lot like Copeland in this regard. Neither player was thought of as a major talent when they were young but their play proved that they belong with the big boys. Olympiacos wouldn't win last year's Euroleague title if it wasn't for him.
                      When your STRENGTH is shooting and you are 40 percent and 32 percent and average 5 points a game I have a hard time believing you are anything but a scrub he is simply taking advantage of a position badly needed by the Hawks after Horford injury. I could easily see him going from starter to a DNP player next year.

                      Comment


                      • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                        Originally posted by VideoVandal View Post
                        No doubt he is a post up option throughout his career. The dilemma however is currently he is NOT a post up option, I mean it is hard to argue with the futility of Hibberts offensive numbers of late. That is why I was curious to the pulse of the forums on do we try to reestablish the post up scoring Hibbert we've all seen before, or do we accept his current futility for what it is and abadon it? Again I still think we need to establish it and I think tonight's approach was good we got him great looks. How he continues to miss is puzzling but I do think it is a part of our offense we have to continue to try to exploit even if in the short run it leads to more 1 for 7s eventually he has to score again right?
                        It's absolutely true that Roy's offense has been very bad lately. I cannot deny this. However, the opposing teams still see him as a post-up option. They still send double teams on him and attempt to trap him. They still collapse two or three players on him when we manage to give him the ball in the paint. It's true that he is not scoring but the defense still has to account for him and that's something that we should use in our advantage.

                        If the opposing defense treated him like Ryan Hollins and allowed him to go 1-on-1 in the post and still missed then I'd agree that he is not a post up option right now. But as long as the opposing team is treating him as a post up option then we should take advantage of that and use him likewise.

                        It isn't hard to see how the opposing team's defense changes when Ian comes in. They are happy to allow Ian to post up and they don't double when we give him the ball in a post-up. That said, Ian does provide a PnR option which Roy doesn't provide currently.
                        People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                        Originally posted by IrishPacer
                        Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                        • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                          Originally posted by presto123 View Post
                          With the money gained by letting Turner and Lance walk. I like Lance, but I actually think it might be the right move.
                          The problem is that the money "saved" by letting Lance walk (Turner will definitely be renounced as his QO is ridiculous sum) can only minimally be used for obtaining a new point. That's the difference between salary cap (restricts moves for players) and luxury tax line (restricts ability to sign your own players). Even if we let them both walk (and Scola and Lavoy), we still ill have only Full Mid-Level Exception to sign FAs. Something which can give you a solid player, but hardly a stating point guard.

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                          • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                            Originally posted by cdash View Post
                            Wonder how Lance feels about his low minute tally tonight.
                            he shouldnt be too upset. he played 8 minutes in the 3rd and came out for normal rest (also coincided with lou williams joining teague). from that point, we bust the game open and it was well in hand. no real reason for him to come back in. its the playoffs, games like this are crucial. he needs to understand he helped spark our run and will help spark many more. minutes in a blowout are not important at all

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                            • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                              Originally posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
                              Also need to point out how much I despise teams that play like ATL. I mean, yeah, the ball movement is great, and obviously you play to your strengths, it works for them, etc.

                              But I hate teams that just chuck it like ATL and GSW. It's just not a long-term winning strategy, and I hate teams that win playing that kind of ball. You know they're going to be an easy out the next round, and they're going to look awful when their shots aren't falling. I want to say it feels "cheap" even if I know how hard they work to get some of those shots.

                              TNT announcers were puzzled as to why ATL started missing shots. It's not really that hard to figure out...Pacers were playing much better team defense, and you simply CAN'T continue shooting at the same clip -- from the same ranges -- ATL did in the first half.
                              I SERIOUSLY think that basketball should get rid of 3-point shot. The basic concept of the game is to put the ball in basket - one method should not be more effective than another. Without a 3-point shot we would get a "purer" version of basketball...

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                              • Re: POST GAME THREAD: 4/22/2014 NBA Playoffs, First Round Game #2: Pacers Vs. Hawks

                                Originally posted by VideoVandal View Post
                                When your STRENGTH is shooting and you are 40 percent and 32 percent and average 5 points a game I have a hard time believing you are anything but a scrub he is simply taking advantage of a position badly needed by the Hawks after Horford injury. I could easily see him going from starter to a DNP player next year.
                                1) He is shooting 42% from the field and 33# from 3 (41.8% and 32.7% are rounded up). He is also averaging 7 PPG in 18.5 MPG. I don't know where you got your numbers but they aren't extremely accurate.

                                2) His strength is not shooting in particular. He can do several things offensively including shooting the 3. He is a well-rounded player that can provide low post defense, rebounding, shooting and passing. He doesn't have the talent level to be an All-Star, of course, but he has worked his *** off to improve every year. He started off in a low level European league but he managed to become a crucial member in a team that won back-to-back Euroleague titles and then also reach the NBA and start for a playoff team.

                                3) Once again, I'm not trying to say that he is going to win a series by himself. He is almost exactly like Copeland. A rugged "rookie" that can come in and help your offense perform at a higher level while not giving up a lot defensively (I don't consider Copeland a defensive liability unlike several others in this forum). He is a fundamentally sound role-player. That's all.
                                People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                                Empty vessels make the most noise.

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