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Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

    The regular season can not end fast enough. I am still somewhat sticking to my theory that our guys just are not getting up for these games (against all logic).

    At least that is what we better hope is what it is, if its really truly other problems then not only are we going to have a short post season but this off season may very well see the beginning of the end of this group who we thought would be the core for a good 4-5 more years.

    I hate to say this, really truly I hate to say this and if you don’t believe me just look at my avatar that I have had for about 4 years now, but I think the players have tuned out Frank Vogel.

    Through no fault of his own it looks like right now he can’t get through to them. Bird has said it and many scoff but I imagine he is closer to the truth than we know, there is an expiration date for most coach’s and if this team continues to fizzle then I would not be surprised if Larry doesn’t decide that changes have to be made.

    I hate it btw, I think Frank is a terrific coach who has given this club everything it needs to survive. But something, someway and somehow has infected this club and generally when you have a system wide failure the coach is the one to take the fall whether they deserve to or not (Frank does not IMO).

    Sadly we have given up our own chance at controlling our own destiny. The Heat and us now share the exact same number of losses for the year. Oh sure if both of us win/lose the exact same pace the rest of the season we could slide through but what really is the chance of that.

    We get to play the Spurs, Raptors (in Toronto), Miami & OKC in the next week and a half. Not to mention Detroit which gives us problems, Atlanta, Milwaukee & end with Orlando who beat us the last time.

    Miami gets Raptors, Bucks, Wolves, Knicks, Nets, Grizzlies, Pacers, Hawks, Wizards, 76ers.

    My guess is we go 4-4 however I easily could see us going 3-5.

    The Heat on the other hand will probably go 7-3.

    If we could have just beaten the Wizards & the Cavs we would have probably had enough cushion to keep this at least a tie in which we would have won the tie breaker, but as it stands now I do not believe we will even be able to do that.

    This will cause a significant problem as this will now make us face the Bobcats in the first round. You would think that our playoff experience would be enough to save the day for us, however you would think a team fighting for the # 1 see would not come out and lay down to a team not even in the playoffs.

    Again I’ll just say what I said after the last game, whatever you want to say is wrong with the Pacers is probably a right answer, it may not be THE right answer but it most likely is part of the problem.

    Again our ability to just hit a simple face up jump shot is the death of our team. It is sad how teams just sag off of us and dare us to hit that jumper and watch as we flail and writhe around trying to get anything or any semblance of an offense. It is quite simply a treadmill to nowhere that we run over and over and over.

    Honestly if I were Frank I would set all of the starters for tomorrow nights game and start bench players and then sub out as necessary. That wouldn’t do a thing for the on court product but it might send a message. What has he got to lose?

    Again though and this is why I am hoping beyond hope that my idea of them being done with the regular season, they may very well come out and either be very competitive or even beat the Spurs. Highly unlikely but if there is any hope for the off season we will see some form of spark.

    I’m not even bothering with grades because I’m just going to give F’s across the board to everyone but Lance Stephenson. He can have a D because out of all of them I felt like Lance was going way out of his way today to not hold the ball and to make the right passes and plays. He wasn’t always successful but he at least tried.

    Also a special F- to Roy Hibbert because I am still pissed at him for calling out Lance and then proceeding to go out and stink up the floor in almost every single game since (minus the first Bulls game and the Heat). If your going to complain about not getting enough touches how about hitting better than 22% from the field.

    Also his lack of rebounding is becoming a joke, the guards are not stealing his boards, his lumbering immobile *** never moves to the ball.

    Look guys I don’t know what to say anymore than the rest of you do. Did the Granger trade really disrupt the locker room? According to Paul in that article after the Miami game it did. But it should not have been this bad, either that or Danny was far more of a leader than we even imagined. It hasn’t helped that Evan Turner has not consistently given better production than what Danny gave us.

    But I suspect it is something far more deep than that.

    I have a feeling the Pacers as we know them now will not exist by August if things don’t change and change fast.

    Sorry this isn’t filled with anything resembling a clue or idea but I’m kind of at a loss. I’ve never seen a team go down like this before without outside factors playing a large part.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

    I still think the Pacers are tired. I have no idea why, but their play sure looks like it. They can play well in stretches, but cannot sustain it. Their outside shooting looks like their legs are gone. They react slowly to steals. They are slow getting down the court. Slow, but not jogging, running slow. They make transition mistakes. Guys get open, but the pass is late. Stuff like that. It just seems they are burned out type tired.

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    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

      Originally posted by Peck View Post
      I hate to say this, really truly I hate to say this and if you don’t believe me just look at my avatar that I have had for about 4 years now, but I think the players have tuned out Frank Vogel.

      Through no fault of his own it looks like right now he can’t get through to them. Bird has said it and many scoff but I imagine he is closer to the truth than we know, there is an expiration date for most coach’s and if this team continues to fizzle then I would not be surprised if Larry doesn’t decide that changes have to be made.
      Not sure why you think the players have tuned out Frank. It doesn't seem like he's changing anything. He seems to be at a loss himself as to what to do. He's still got that mindset that what used to work will work again. He doesn't seem to have any idea how to adjust or adapt.

      I do suspect he burned out the team. He tried to play a playoff rotation for the entire year. Now he's paying the consequences. Trouble is, it's too late to do anything about it. He didn't make an effort to develop the bench so he has no options to change things up. Well, no options other than blind changes and that's unlikely to work.

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      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

        The best analogy I've seen was that we are like the little kid who wanted to keep playing through naptime and ends up lying on the floor screaming and cranky at 3 pm. We exerted too much in November and December and have worn the team out. I'd take the rest of the regular season off for the players and give Solo and Cope and Allen some time.

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        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

          Originally posted by Strummer View Post
          Not sure why you think the players have tuned out Frank. It doesn't seem like he's changing anything. He seems to be at a loss himself as to what to do. He's still got that mindset that what used to work will work again. He doesn't seem to have any idea how to adjust or adapt.

          I do suspect he burned out the team. He tried to play a playoff rotation for the entire year. Now he's paying the consequences. Trouble is, it's too late to do anything about it. He didn't make an effort to develop the bench so he has no options to change things up. Well, no options other than blind changes and that's unlikely to work.
          I don't understand how you guys can say that as PG is averaging the same minutes as last year and way less than KD or Lebron. West also was barely averaging 30 minutes for the first 3 months.

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          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

            This from David West is the best explanation yet.

            "we've got horrible body language. I know our body language is bad. At times out chemistry and us being a together group is just not there. That's what given us some success and its just not there right now"

            The question is why??? players mad at management? Players no longer responding and or lost faith and confidence in Vogel and coaching staff? Or some type of rift amongst the players have caused a splintering?
            Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-31-2014, 10:36 AM.

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            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

              Now that we've had two weeks pass, it's clear that Hibbert's comments backfired big time. If you're going to call someone out like that, then you sure as hell better at least make sure that you do your part on the court. Since his comments, Hibbert has been complete garbage aside from Chicago and Miami (the Heat don't have anyone to push him around). Hard to respect the comments of someone who has played like a complete wuss so much lately and comments theft every time he cashes one of his obscene check.

              Regardless, making comments like that to the press just isn't who this team is. We've been successful over the past two years by being a tight knit group with an unselfish team identity.

              I used to think that our woes were an issue of boredom, but it's just really hard to buy that right now when Miami is right on our ***. If that doesn't motivate you, then nothing will.

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              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                This from David West is the best explanation yet.

                "we've got horrible body language. I know our body language is bad. At times out chemistry and us being a together group is just not there. That's what given us some success and its just not there right now"

                The question is why??? players mad at management? Players no longer responding and or lost faith and confidence in Vogel and coaching staff? Or some type of rift amongst the layers have caused a splintering?
                That is what I keep asking after reading West's comments. Are they that mad that management traded Granger? Was Granger really that big of a leader in our locker room? If so then Bird was blind and completely blew it. Has there been a huge rift created between the players because some are getting to big of head? Have they tuned out Vogel? None of these questions should be coming up for a title contender. If this is what it comes down to then it will not get fixed till the offseason and we will have a very very disappointing playoff run.

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                  I think this about the coaching. I think they trusted the system and now the system isn't working. I know enough to know they aren't running good counters to what they've run all year and teams just flood the same old offensive sets by over playing the defense. Execution is horrible in picks are weak, but mostly in the read and react area they are bad. Players are running plays instead of playing basketball. This is a problem. The team doesn't have a Jordan or Kobe who can manufacture a bucket 4 or 5 times in a row by going one on one. The teams not built to fast break, so no momentum or easy buckets there.

                  Lance is the one guy who can make things happen, good and bad, granted, but in this molasses of an offense, he needs to get the ball...which causes another problem, that guys are made that Lance is well free lancing (gotta be a nickname there somewhere).

                  Lastly human nature, boulder rolling down hill gains momentum. Once you can't score and aren't winning its perpetuating, becomes ingrained. It's hard to play balls out, full sacrifice Defense over 9 months, even harder when its not getting you wins anymore.

                  What's to be done? I'd start by running the ball, but put a group on the floor at some point that can run. Maybe you go small with the second unit, PG at 3, Copland at 4, Lance at 2. Problem is you are out of time basically.

                  Answer, fix whats there and play basketball. Vogel should chew on everyone to get back mentally, George Hill can't stand and watch when teams are cheating their offensive sets, he needs to get to the open area. Guys need to hit the offensive boards, thats bad offensive gold. Attack the basket without the ball, attack the basket with the ball but to pass not to score. Pass out of the post Roy and DWest, but give them a target.

                  SHARING THE BALL doesn't mean going through the motions of the designed offense.

                  Lastly, I feel like they are tired, but its mentally tired.

                  Time to get back to smash mouth, lets use our fouls and set a couple of bone jarring picks early in the game. All legal and all a message.

                  Very lastly, I really miss Jeff Foster, he'd be a perfect remedy for this group right now.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                    That was my rant that is too long for anyone to read.

                    Here's my 3 step answer.

                    1.) Offensive boards
                    2.) Push the ball for easy baskets
                    3.) back to smash mouth (aka hard block outs, hard picks, no lay ups)

                    First two helps an anemic offense, last one is who they were and they've forgotten.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                      I commented in the postgame thread buit wanted to point out a couple things here.

                      First, I think Lance has been the one working the hardest recently to get things straight. I don't think he's forcing shots or passes for the most part. He still messes up from time to time but more at the rate expected from a guy his age in this league, not like someone thinking they are better than they are. He's not trying to dive into masses of defenders; he's stopped choosing the fancy pass over the simple one. He's pretty much off my blame list.

                      Second, I thought the couple of minutes at the end of the game of Frank counting down on the sideline while the offense tried to immediately attack the basket were VERY telling and VERY successful. It was too late to turn the game around, but I thought that short burst was one of the best offensive efforts I've seen all year. If Frank can go over THAT film with them to show them what can happen when they focus like that at the beginning of the game, we might - I say might - have found the turnaround. If nothing else, it makes me think they ARE listening to him, they just are so frustrated when something doesn't work that they slump their shoulders and mentally throw their hands in the air.
                      BillS

                      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                        The question is why??? players mad at management? Players no longer responding and or lost faith and confidence in Vogel and coaching staff? Or some type of rift amongst the layers have caused a splintering?
                        I think it's simple. PG has turned the "five players with great chemistry" formula into a wannabe superstar dominating the offense way too much, and unsuccessfully. Vogel has failed to reel him in. Bird alluded to this.

                        Lance and others began to mimic the default new modus operandum, and it's just gone from bad to worse.
                        "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                          But just going back to the "five man offense" won't work, because teams have figured it out and when defenses clamp down, more creativity is needed. The only starter who can break down defenses is Lance.

                          I think if Bird were coach, he'd make it clear that Lance will generally be running the offense from now on (he's mentioned this idea more than once).

                          PG and Hill would need to get over it. At that point, we would have an offense again. With the boil "lanced," we could get our chemistry back.
                          Last edited by McKeyFan; 03-31-2014, 09:52 AM.
                          "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                            Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                            I think if Bird were coach, he'd make it clear that Lance will generally be running the offense from now on (he's mentioned this idea more than once).
                            You really think this is the best idea? After an ESPN article previously read:

                            Other times he [Lance] flat-out hogs the ball. And while this happens with many players on every team, the tolerance for the younger and rougher Stephenson is much less than for the veterans elsewhere on the roster.On Monday, Stephenson had no assists and four turnovers in 30 minutes in the loss. When he drops his head and ignores open teammates, heads shake and shoulders slump visibly. After averaging nearly six assists a game in the season's first three months, Stephenson is averaging only three assists over the last two months.
                            "We have [guys trying to be heroes] at times and we choose the wrong moment at times," George said.
                            When the Pacers talk about offensive problems, they always default to lack of ball movement. No one on the team stops the ball like Stephenson, who enjoys the status of being one of Bird's favorite players

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Cleveland Rocks

                              Originally posted by PR07 View Post
                              You really think this is the best idea? After an ESPN article previously read:
                              Obviously if he had the ball more he'd hog it less, duh.

                              Comment

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