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Ok, it's officially time to panic

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  • #91
    Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

    I see some people saying Turner should be starting instead of Lance. I disagree, if you make a change like that it should be Butler who is starting. Honestly, I do not understand why people would rather play Copeland over Butler. With only one exception, whenever Butler has gotten significant playing time he has been nothing but a positive player for us. I don't think the same could be said for Copeland.


    On Vogel. I don't think you even consider firing him this offseason no matter the outcome of this season. He isn't a veteran coach who has been around the block. This is his first stop, and he has shown a lot of potential. I am more concerned with how he will react, change, and learn from this season than what actually happens. This means throwing out everything he has done the past 3 seasons on offense, finding an offensive minded assistant coach, studying in depth some of the great offenses, and implementing a brand new system next season.


    On Paul and Roy. They have been playing like crap, which is the reason why we can't even beat Cleveland. There is no excuse for their play, but sometimes players just have bad months. There isn't anything you can do about it other than just play through it. You can make minor adjustments (i.e. have Paul shoot 14 shots per game instead of 17), but it isn't like you are going to bench them. There is another problem that goes beyond just some slumping play, and is probably only working to accentuate the slump. As well I could see them being tired as having an affect, especially Paul since he hasn't carried the number one option rule for a whole season prior to this season.


    On Lance, him being a main offensive threat in the half court with the starters just is not a good idea. He doesn't know how to play within the team concept within this role. Within the half court with the ball in his hands his only offense is shake 'n bake, and he isn't very reliable at that. He might be great as a bench scorer, but he isn't a scorer as a starter. What got Lance attention for the all-star game was not what he was doing with the starters, but what he was doing with the bench especially the first 13ish games after Granger came back. When he was playing unselfish ball, and helping Granger to come out of the gates playing extremely well (everyone still seems to forget this period of the season). That was when Lance started to get All-Star consideration, which shortly followed by Lance playing more and more selfishly. That was also when things seemed to start to change. It comes down to this. Lance can do a lot of things that can lift an offense up, but not when he is looking to score in the half court.

    Last year our starters had an offense as efficient as Miami, it was just our bench could be dominated by a high school team. That was with an offense focused around West, Hill, Hibbert, and Paul. At the beginning of the season it was very similar just with a little more Lance, but not a lot. Now we have an offense focused around Paul, Lance, and West dabbled in. Paul and Lance are not Lebron and Wade or Durant and Westbrook, or even Granger and Dunleavy (they averaged almost 40ppg between the two of them that one season). They simply are not that good of offensive players to be so heavily focused on their individual abilities. They are both at their best when they are playing within an offense that isn't focused on them.

    From Roy's comments it seems Lance kind of took it upon himself to increase his role instead of following Vogel's plan. This has obviously rubbed the team in the wrong way. Causing problems with their chemistry, and on-the-court production. The simple, and really only, answer is to get back to what we were doing at the beginning of the season and last season. Lance can enforce his will with the bench if he wants, but with the starters he needs to take a backseat. Get most of his points on fast break opportunities, and cuts to the basket. Cause Lance, you aren't as good as you think you are.



    On Granger. To think not having him couldn't have a negative affect on the team because his stats weren't great, or because he didn't play last year is just a sign of ignorance towards how people act and think. From previous comments it has been made obvious that you for some reason think making millions of dollars means these people no longer act and think like normal human beings. Like they suddenly mutated into a different species. Which simple is not the case. Right now having Granger in the lockerroom would be a good thing. He was a player that just about everyone in the lockerroom looked up to, and respected. He might not have played last year, but he was almost always with the team and was certainly a voice in the lockerroom. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't act sort of like a coach a lot of the times. To ignore the importance of a leader in the lockerroom is honestly stupid.

    I'm going to echo a bit, with some added flavor, what others have said. I do not believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", what I am a believer in is "if it ain't broke, don't make any rash changes". This is something I have learned from programming. You can always make it better, but you better know exactly what you are doing. If you do not take the time to work through the logic, plan properly, and test it you are bound to create a change that screws something up 10, 15, or even 100 steps down the line. Everything is interconnected, and one change can cause a cascading affect over the whole program. Multiple changes, can become exponentially more harmful. I do not think Bird accurately assessed the situation, and the players skills involved when making this decision. He looked at it from Turner and Granger in vacuum, and did not consider all the possible ramifications. If he did he would not have traded away such an important piece to the lockerroom for a young player whose skill set mimics the skill sets of players already on the team.

    Comment

    • #92
      Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
      Why do you think this?

      I've seen and read no evidence that suggests this. I have heard comments made by Hibbert that suggest that something CLEARLY is wrong....but nothing that outright says tjat they are fed up with Lance.

      For me, I don't want to blame any single individual for all the woes of this Team.....I may shift more blame on certain Players and Vogel....but to me....everyone in the Starting Lineup is to blame. They are adults....they need to figure things out and work together.
      Mentally....I sometimes wonder.

      Comment

      • #93
        Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

        Originally posted by TMJ31 View Post
        So I say again:

        Help us Obi Frank Vogel-bi, you're our only hope...
        IF anything, I am more surprised that Bird hasn't said or done anything. I have always thought that Bird is the old-school type that thinks that you don't coast through the regular season....you play every game to win......cuz every game is important, regardless of the situation ( see all of those games during the Playoff Bubble Lottery years....even when they were mathematically eliminated ).

        I can only assume that Bird is VERY UNHAPPY with way this Team is working out now.....and only hope that he has had a VERY LONG AND LOUD talk with the Coaching Staff and Team about this. For all we know, he may have....repeatedly.....but there's no way for us to know .

        If there is any truth to this "We're tired of the regular season, let's just start the Playoffs already" mentality....my hope...if not assumption...is that Bird would be the first in the Locker Room to squash it. Why? cuz he taught them better and ( most importantly ) HCA is very important to Bird. Where are we now with this "malaise"? Back where we were last season.......even worse....what appears to be a step back from last season....EXACTLY where Bird doesn't want the Team to be.
        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

        Comment

        • #94
          Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

          Originally posted by presto123 View Post
          Mentally....I sometimes wonder.
          True....the only one I know is an adult is West.....but I think that he's one of those really angry "You don't want to see me angry" type of adults.
          Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

          Comment

          • #95
            Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

            Originally posted by CableKC View Post
            No, you are wrong....if there ever was a wake up call that should have been sounded....it should have happened a LONG LONG TIME AGO....about 2 months ago.

            I can't see this team waking up with the amount of reg season games left before the playoffs. I don't see them finding it with the playoffs going either. Bird needs to have a team meeting and outline exactly what he expects. If this doesn't happen, then just explain that there will be players not with the team next year... plain and simple.

            My personal feeling is Lance really doesn't care as he's playing for himself and a new big contract somewhere else next year. If Bird and Vogel can't control him now, how would they ever control him with a big new contract? I really like Lance, but his "me ball" to look good for a big contract is a detriment to this team.

            Comment

            • #96
              Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

              Originally posted by Kstat View Post
              The guy that was averaging 24ppg and shooting 48% the first 3 months of the season just had a month where he averaged just under 19 and shot 37%..

              The center that started that same stretch averaging 13 points, about 8.5 boards and nearly 3 blocks a game on roughly 47% spent march averaging 9.4 points, 1.9 blocks and 4.5 rebounds on 43% shooting.

              No reason to oversimplify this. The two max contract players are playing terrible. There are drop offs here and there throughout the roster, but nothing remotely close to what Hibbert and George are going through.

              I'm pretty sure they're well aware of why the entire team is in a horrendous funk. They won't say it, but they know.

              It will be interesting to see what Bird plans on doing about it this off season, since he must know too!

              Comment

              • #97
                Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                It wouldn't surprise me to see Paul George traded.
                "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                Comment

                • #98
                  Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                  Originally posted by I Love P View Post
                  There is also no reason your "All-Star" 7-foot center is also 25 feet away from the basket making screens.

                  That's Vogel's fault.

                  Comment

                  • #99
                    Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                    Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                    It wouldn't surprise me to see Paul George traded.
                    Nothing would surprise me as much as seeing Paul George traded.

                    Comment

                    • #100
                      Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                      Why do you think this?

                      I've seen and read no evidence that suggests this. I have heard comments made by Hibbert that suggest that something CLEARLY is wrong....but nothing that outright says tjat they are fed up with Lance.

                      For me, I don't want to blame any single individual for all the woes of this Team.....I may shift more blame on certain Players and Vogel....but to me....everyone in the Starting Lineup is to blame. They are adults....they need to figure things out and work together.
                      Well, granted I am reading between the lines. But I think it's a fairly obvious assertion to make.

                      I am NOT in any way absolving the other starters. All I am saying is that all these snippy quotes from Roy seem to be aimed mostly at Lance.

                      Whether I agree with where Roy directs the blame or not (for the record, I don't) - the fact is that it is obviously impacting the team's chemistry on the court, and maybe off it too?

                      I think they ALL need to grow up, frankly. But I'm just trying to find areas that could have immediate impact.

                      Lance not playing with that starting group is the only thing I can think of that would MAYBE correct our on court chemistry at this juncture.

                      Comment

                      • #101
                        Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                        Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                        It wouldn't surprise me to see Paul George traded.
                        That would completely shock me...Lance not being back wouldn't though. I think he's the guy the team is fed up with. I think the team outside of the public has had to deal with Lance being Lance and it has now started a little mutiny in the team. I think Lance not being a reserve for the all-star game set off the volcano and it's caused massive destruction ever since. Paul has done some stupid ****, but it doesn't involve his teammates directly.
                        "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

                        ----------------- Reggie Miller

                        Comment

                        • #102
                          Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                          Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                          It wouldn't surprise me to see Paul George traded.
                          I've been critical of PG lately because I think he has played pretty poor, but trading PG would be the biggest mistake in franchise history. PG in the first two months of the season played the best ball of any player in our NBA history. You could have called him the MVP of the league - he was that great. Also, he did go toe to toe with Lebron during the ECF's last year. His problem is that he let all of the hype get to his head and started trying to take over games by jacking up shots as if he was Kobe Bryant. He clearly has some ego issues on the court and overvalues what he can do, but it's fixable. You don't trade a 23 year old who is this talented.

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                            You don't trade a 23 year old who is this talented.
                            Usually not. But PG could possibly snag a number of players in a trade. And some of these possibilities below might even bring a second player. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm just saying I would not be surprised if Bird entertained certain major trades that included players such as the following:

                            Carmelo
                            Kyrie Irving
                            John Wall
                            Stephan Curry
                            Blake Griffin
                            Dwight Howard
                            LaMarcus Aldridge
                            Chris Paul
                            Damien Lillard
                            Anthony Davis
                            "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                            Comment

                            • #104
                              Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                              Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
                              I do not think Bird accurately assessed the situation, and the players skills involved when making this decision. He looked at it from Turner and Granger in vacuum, and did not consider all the possible ramifications. If he did he would not have traded away such an important piece to the lockerroom for a young player whose skill set mimics the skill sets of players already on the team.
                              I agree with the remainder of your post that I did not include in the quote above. Wanted to highlight this specific comment because I wholeheartedly disagree. There have been several reports Granger quit his rehab program. If that is accurate information it may had an impact on Birds decision to trade Danny. Bird has been quoted as saying on record he did not believe Granger worked hard enough during the offseason.

                              You all can be the judge on the below quote from Bird whether he did what was first and foremost "best for the Franchise."

                              Trading Danny was the toughest thing I ever had to do. He’s the last guy I thought I’d trade. About 20 minutes before we made the deal, I told Kevin Pritchard (the assistant GM) that I gotta wait. I didn’t know if I could do it.

                              But I remembered what Red taught me. The franchise is always first. He said he had great players leave and people would say the franchise was going to fold and all of that. Well, that didn’t happen. The franchise is the most important thing and so in this case I had to do what’s best for the franchise.

                              http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...indiana-pacers

                              With Bird questioning Grangers work ethic. The possibility of Lance leaving for more $. The need for a third big in Lavoy Allen if Bynum was unable to go. Factor in all the above and you can probably determine this wasn't not an easy decision either way. Keeping Danny then letting him walk in free agency would have had many here up in arms depending on the outcome of this season.

                              Lot of factors to consider but its not like Larry traded away 2 first rounders, Solo, and Granger to land Turner. We gave up a 2nd and a player who may have been slacking off work ethic/ rehab wise according to some reports. many of you seem to assume Larry flippantly just dealt Granger for peanuts. He made the move because it was in the best interests of the Franchise.

                              One more quick note: I am a firm believer losing Danny these past two seasons have been detrimental but even moreso last year. Posted this in the Danny Granger appreciation thread but as much as not having Granger catapulted PG and to some degree Lances career. It hurt us significantly financially because we had to accelerate the payouts. If we got a healthy Granger last season PG is not forced to take on so much of the scoring and doesn't land a near max deal. Lance probably would be in the role he needs to be which was 6th man. additionally having Granger last year I believe gets this team past the Heat.

                              Were not talking about the same Granger though because he is not healthy. I bet Larry has received hundreds of calls for Danny over the years. Right now I wonder if we coulda dealt him last offseason for Eric Bledsoe, there were reports Clippers were interested,, even last trade deadline. So Larry didn't just jettison Granger out the door first chance he got.

                              Bird waited last season, and it cost this team with Granger playing 5 games then out indefinitely. Maybe Bird could have dealt Danny before the season but he didn't. I believe Bird wanted it to work with Granger but the knee issues and his upcoming contract and potentially losing Granger for nothing in return for a small market Franchise could have a big impact in following seasons.

                              I get the emotional ties to Granger, I just don't believe its the reason this team has nosedived like it has.

                              Comment

                              • #105
                                Re: Ok, it's officially time to panic

                                Originally posted by PacersPride View Post
                                I agree with the remainder of your post that I did not include in the quote above. Wanted to highlight this specific comment because I wholeheartedly disagree. There have been several reports Granger quit his rehab program. If that is accurate information it may had an impact on Birds decision to trade Danny. Bird has been quoted as saying on record he did not believe Granger worked hard enough during the offseason.

                                You all can be the judge on the below quote from Bird whether he did what was first and foremost "best for the Franchise."




                                With Bird questioning Grangers work ethic. The possibility of Lance leaving for more $. The need for a third big in Lavoy Allen if Bynum was unable to go. Factor in all the above and you can probably determine this wasn't not an easy decision either way. Keeping Danny then letting him walk in free agency would have had many here up in arms depending on the outcome of this season.

                                Lot of factors to consider but its not like Larry traded away 2 first rounders, Solo, and Granger to land Turner. We gave up a 2nd and a player who may have been slacking off work ethic/ rehab wise according to some reports. many of you seem to assume Larry flippantly just dealt Granger for peanuts. He made the move because it was in the best interests of the Franchise.

                                One more quick note: I am a firm believer losing Danny these past two seasons have been detrimental but even moreso last year. Posted this in the Danny Granger appreciation thread but as much as not having Granger catapulted PG and to some degree Lances career. It hurt us significantly financially because we had to accelerate the payouts. If we got a healthy Granger last season PG is not forced to take on so much of the scoring and doesn't land a near max deal. Lance probably would be in the role he needs to be which was 6th man. additionally having Granger last year I believe gets this team past the Heat.

                                Were not talking about the same Granger though because he is not healthy. I bet Larry has received hundreds of calls for Danny over the years. Right now I wonder if we coulda dealt him last offseason for Eric Bledsoe, there were reports Clippers were interested,, even last trade deadline. So Larry didn't just jettison Granger out the door first chance he got.

                                Bird waited last season, and it cost this team with Granger playing 5 games then out indefinitely. Maybe Bird could have dealt Danny before the season but he didn't. I believe Bird wanted it to work with Granger but the knee issues and his upcoming contract and potentially losing Granger for nothing in return for a small market Franchise could have a big impact in following seasons.

                                I get the emotional ties to Granger, I just don't believe its the reason this team has nosedived like it has.




                                One thing that is missed................Larry traded for LaVoy hoping Vogel would play him OVER Ian if Bynum's knee (or knees) started to flare up. Which it (the right one) did. But now, Vogel has decided to play Ian (CDS - Can't do S***) Mahinmi over LaVoy. Who gave us 13, 8 and 2 in his only backup of Hibbert this season. Yeah it's one game. BUT.....the fact that LaVoy can consistently knock down or has the range to knock down the 13 foot jump-shot, alone makes him superior to Ian and makes me curious. Teams cannot play off of him like they do Ian. They want Ian to shoot, LaVoy not so much. And leaving him open would be a killer. If you gave Ian and LaVoy 10 attempts at a 12 footer, I'll bet LaVoy would hit atleast 7. Ian about 2 at the most. 4 if he's DAMN LUCKY.


                                Also when you consider we NEARLY traded Ian for Robin Lopez in the off-season. And then Bird brought in Bynum and his chronic knee issues, to supplement him, it should be obvious to anyone with eyes that they (the front office) thinks that Ian sucks. And Vogel if he knows that, has no obligation to play him. Heads won't roll if he doesn't, because when the front office isn't fond of a simple bench player or tries to trade him in the off-season, it's usually a BIG GREEN LIGHT to the coaching staff that if this guy falls out of the rotation in favor of someone else, we'd prefer it that way. Vogel can't even read his own bosses subtle messages. So sad.
                                Last edited by Grimp; 03-31-2014, 04:46 PM.

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