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Odd Thoughts: Surrender

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  • Odd Thoughts: Surrender

    Normally if I get called at a Pacers game for a work related issue I am not happy, if I ever have to leave early for a work related issue I am fuming mad. Not tonight.

    Thanks to a fortunate call (this time) from work I was forced to leave the game slightly earlier than I normally do. Oh I could have waited the last 50 some seconds or whatever it was but when Earl Clark pulled up and drained that three like he was Ray Allen both Diamond Dave & myself said that it was okay to take our leave.

    If you’re wondering why I am not doing these as often as I was it’s pretty simple. When Danny came back and looked the way he did I was concerned, when he started missing games I started to worry and now that he is in the second week of missing games again, well I’ll just say I’m not in a good place where I can write these without sounding like I have been possessed by Vnzla81.

    I knew Danny wasn’t going to be Danny but I was at least hoping beyond hope that he would come in and at the very least provide our bench with some form of offense. I’m not saying he won’t, yes in theory it is possible that he could still come back and be a contributor but right now I’m not counting on it.

    And since I no longer am counting on that hope I am all but despondent about the shape of our bench. At this point in time the only hope I have is that our starters can play 40+ a game once we get to the playoffs because our bench is just a disaster. It doesn’t help that I have to sit there and watch Gerald Green sit there game after game knowing that he was our big off season signing (beyond re-signing George & Roy) and knowing that his contract still runs for two more years.

    Not that the bench tonight was the reason we lost, they didn’t help but they didn’t play the majority of the game either. I’m just talking about my overall mood at the moment, which is sad because after that G.S. game I was on top of the world.

    To say this game was embarrassing would be an understatement. I said to Diamond Dave at the end of the first quarter that we were in deep trouble because Howard was on the bench with 2 early fouls, Bryant wasn’t doing anything and yet we could not put any kind of lead on the board to which they could not come back from.

    A few pointless (both literally and figuratively) D.J. Augustine plays later and we were looking up at them in the scoring column.

    Our defense was slow all night, rotations were non-existent and the day after I declare David West the best Pacers power forward of the NBA era he turns into the “not me” ghost from family circle. In other words he would not rotate to help on defense and when his team mates would look at him he would fire back “not me”. This happened on more than one occasion btw.

    Look I’m going to be the one person who gives Roy Hibbert a break tonight; he missed 4 of his up close shots because he was rushing them to get them up before Howard sent them the other way. Now again he could very easily have grabbed the missed offensive rebound and passed it out but 2 of the 4 were tips or close to it and Howard was within the vicinity. Hard to blame him for rushing the shot but at least he was down there battling all night long, more than I could say for some of the others.

    Most of our team was more interested in re-creating the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy from the Nutcracker as was more than evident when Roy Hibbert masterfully blocked Dwight Howard off of the offensive rebound only to have everyone else stand there and watch as Ron Artest grabs an unmolested rebound for the easiest basket of his entire career. At that point in time I wouldn’t have blamed Roy if he had just decided to do a running clothesline on the next two Pacers he saw.

    Don’t get me wrong Roy didn’t have a great game but IMO he was one of the few players that wasn’t taken completely out of the game.

    Speaking of being taken out of the game, look everyone knows I love Vogel but he just killed Lance early on tonight. Of course Lance returned the favor later in the game (I’ve never seen Frank so visibly mad at one of our players before) but to start the game once again Frank went to his egg timer that said he had to bring in a bench player and it didn’t matter that Lance at that point in time was going all Hong Kong Phooey, no he had to come out and Orlando had to come in. This killed our momentum as Lance was attacking the Lakers and had them on their heels. Look I know he is a loose cannon but there are times when it is working that you have to let it ride until it ends and this was one of those times. Because typically once he comes out whenever he comes back he is not generally in the flow of the game at that time. Tonight was no exception, he didn’t get on again till the second half and by then he was out of control and caused a momentum killing turn over (which btw he was part of the momentum so it is a double edged sword).

    As to the next part I will be as gentile as I know how. Paul George (regardless of whatever his final stats say) did not have a good game. Paul George has actually now had several of what I would call less than stellar games, games where you look at his stats and think that he played well but then if you watch the game you know that something was off. He just settles too much for my taste and 10 three point attempts is vomit inducing to me. His defense was ok although I contend tonight it wasn’t as good as it has been in the past and frankly was punished by Ron Artest all night long.

    Tonight let’s just assign McDonald land character names as grades.

    Paul George: Ronald McDonald

    Big lanky goofy and humorous, yeah that pretty much say’s it all tonight. I really enjoyed his rocket pass standing less than 2 feet away from Roy Hibbert that flew into the stands and nearly killed a fan. Could not contain Ron Artest at all and just could not hit his shot, which is not a problem honestly. But when he started settling for pull up three’s early in the shot clock then that is a problem. I understand that Dwight Howard was in there but he has got to attack him. No the referee’s were not the problem tonight, our fear of Howard was. He got his fourth foul and played the entire second half without fear of fouling out because we did everything but go at him. He finally picked up foul 5 later on.

    David West: Grimace

    This works on so many levels, first it is the face that he carries 90% of the time and second he moved with the speed and purpose of the character during the game. I told Hicks a week or so ago that the teams that had success with West were not the teams who tried to attack him head on but they would use usually smaller cagey veterans who used leverage and not strength and would take him out by denying position. Then as a bonus if that player could play the three point line on the other end David can be for a short time at least totally taken out of a game. Think what Battier did to him in the playoffs a couple of times and then think about Jamison and Artest doing it tonight. This actually may have been his worst game of the season.

    Roy Hibbert: Officer Big Mac

    Yea I know you all want me to make him the clown, not going to happen tonight. Look I’ve been plenty tough on Roy this year but IMO this game wasn’t on him, he really tried. And for that he is given the Big Mac moniker as he was attempting to police the interior. Is he as good as Dwight Howard? Hell no! But he at least didn’t defecate on himself when faced with a superior player.

    George Hill: Mayor McCheese

    Certainly offensively gave the team a lift in the second half, of course once again when called upon to hit a pressure free throw he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that instead of ice water in the veins he had grape jelly. Also how much do we care that he could not keep a nearly 40 year old player in front of him for most of the game? I mean he is one of the all time greats (Nash not Hill) so there is that, but again for the love of God he is beyond old. Also he did take a pop to that jaw early in the game and he was actually spitting blood into a cup, I’m not sure if he got a cut on the lip or something else but kudos to him for soldiering on. However the cheese for me came after the game in his post game comments, which we’ll get to shortly.

    Lance Stephenson: Captain Crook

    If I were going with Norse Mythology tonight I would have named him Loki the doer of both good and evil. As was aptly stated by Jason Whitlock a couple of weeks ago he is the perfect kind of idiot and this is both part of his charm and his danger. He doesn’t know when he is supposed to be afraid and therefore at times he does breath taking moves that make everyone jump on their feet and declare that we will be just fine without Danny. Then later in the same game he will pull one of the most bone headed plays that make you wonder if Danny in a wheel chair wouldn’t be a better option. Two additional things happened tonight that again can be part of his charm but also goes a long way in explaining why several other media types think we are a punk team. We all saw the flop that he drew that foul on Howard, I am sure he will be getting a letter for the league office of flopping on that one. But earlier he made a spectacular spin move and found Pendegraph for a fantastic dunk. While spinning around Steve Blake he came back to him face to face not 2-3” from him and yelled in his face at the top of his lungs, Blake pushed him which was the reaction he was trying to draw to get a “T” but the refs. missed the entire thing. If anyone remembers when Mark Jackson did this to Pat Ewing years ago it was the same thing.

    D.J. Augustine: The Hamburglar

    Equally as effective as his name sake. Had one really nice fake pass and drive for a shot but other than that? Nada

    The rest of the bench: Fry kids

    Just not even worth talking about.

    Okay let’s deal with the Lakers fans that were in attendance. Were there a lot of them? Yes, yes there were. I have no idea of the % of fans they had there but it was a good chunk I’ll say that.

    Look I’m not defending anyone or anything but I just want to point out a couple of things. There are just certain historic teams that no matter how good or bad they are at the moment transcend the sport they play. These teams have pantheons of fans that are all over the world and they sometimes even have fans that travel with them.

    In baseball you have the Yankee’s, in football you have the Packers and to a certain extent the Patriots and in basketball you have the Lakers and to a slightly lesser extent the Celtics.

    Not everybody that was there tonight was an Indianapolis resident, they drove in from Dayton, Cincinnati, Louisville & Effingham. Yes there were also fans there from Evansville, Lafayette and sadly right here in Indianapolis. They are going to get tickets, they are always going to get tickets.

    I’ll give you the weirdest one of all, the guy who sat right next to us tonight was wearing a Bryant jersey yet he holds a half season Pacers ticket package. He roots on the Pacers every game he is there and never once have we seen him wear another teams jersey. But for whatever reason tonight he did. Now he didn’t cheer one way or the other tonight but it was very strange. No, we didn’t ask why because I value my seats and don’t want to lose them for Diamond Dave fighting with someone.

    Now here is where I know people are going to complain and I know that Hill did tonight. The stands should have been filled with Pacers fans. I don’t deny that but like I said about the Bulls fans a couple of weeks ago. They know when these tickets come out and the single ticket Lakers game is probably mostly sold out about a week after individual tickets go on sale, or at least I would bet they were. So in other words this was way before the Pacers were ever winning anything. In other words those Lakers fans already had their tickets.

    Frankly I’m getting sick of even hearing about the attendance. I’ve been there for years & I’m telling you this year is the best we have had since the mid 2000’s. Yes there are times that the Bulls or the Lakers or the Celtics come in here and make noise. But just 4 years ago squad 6 from Milwaukee came in here and took over, so IMO we have made giant leaps towards gaining more fans back.

    Now not to be rude to George or anything but you are not going to be able to shame fans into attendance. Win and you will get more fans. Look its already happening, we started winning consistently and more nights than not we have good crowds. Hell we almost had 15K for Minnesota on a Wednesday night and we know no one was there to see them, well not many any way.

    Also while I know that you can’t win them all, laying an egg in front of a crowded house isn’t going to help anything. The fact that we are now losing to good teams again isn’t much cause for celebration for a die hard like myself let alone John Q Casual. I mean this is now consecutive losses to the Clippers, Celtics, Heat & Lakers. Oh sure we beat the heck out of the Magic and the decimated Wolves but better teams are now looking more and more daunting.

    We can’t lose tonight, honestly we can not afford to lose. In fact we have to beat the 76ers the Cavs and the Magic to stay ahead of the Knicks and from what I read tonight it looks like Rose may make his season debut on Monday.

    Oh well onto the next one.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

    Peck, screw the attendance. That's not the issue.

    Were you ok when the arena was cheering for the Lakers win? Because that was what sounded like on the feed. BLF cheering for the Lakers.

    Personally, I was embarrassed. That shouldn't happen. George Hill is 100% right, in my opinion.

    At times I just feel that this city does not deserve this team. I'm sorry to say it. You, Seth, Dave, Area 55, the G2 Zone and the rest of the die-hards certainly deserve them but the "casuals" are making me to almost hate Indiana at times
    Originally posted by IrishPacer
    Empty vessels make the most noise.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

      Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
      Peck, screw the attendance. That's not the issue.

      Were you ok when the arena was cheering for the Lakers win? Because that was what sounded like on the feed. BLF cheering for the Lakers.

      Personally, I was embarrassed. That shouldn't happen. George Hill is 100% right, in my opinion.

      At times I just feel that this city does not deserve this team. I'm sorry to say it. You, Seth, Dave, Area 55, the G2 Zone and the rest of the die-hards certainly deserve them but the "casuals" are making me to almost hate Indiana at times
      My only real problem is that the way it is being reported is that the Indiana Pacers fans (casual or otherwise) are the only fans in the NBA to do this. Tell you what tonight watch the Philly game and let me know what a rabble rousing crowd that they will have. Now mind you they will claim 18K+ in attendance but you will be able to count the fans in the stands and this is against a upper tier team (us) on a Saturday night in a major metropolitan area of the U.S.

      Yet for whatever reason Indiana fans have been castigated because were not drawing 18K a night with less than 1/2 the population.

      BTW it happens all over the NBA, there are very few cities that sell out each and every night.


      Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

        Originally posted by Peck View Post
        My only real problem is that the way it is being reported is that the Indiana Pacers fans (casual or otherwise) are the only fans in the NBA to do this. Tell you what tonight watch the Philly game and let me know what a rabble rousing crowd that they will have. Now mind you they will claim 18K+ in attendance but you will be able to count the fans in the stands and this is against a upper tier team (us) on a Saturday night in a major metropolitan area of the U.S.

        Yet for whatever reason Indiana fans have been castigated because were not drawing 18K a night with less than 1/2 the population.

        BTW it happens all over the NBA, there are very few cities that sell out each and every night.
        Peck, the Sixers are not good at the moment. They have been heavily injured and this was a lost season for them. They are 24 - 40, 10th in the East and last in the Atlantic Division. A team that is playing so bad is not going to attract fans.

        The Pacers are 40 - 25 (40 - 24) prior to this game and 2nd in the East. They boast the 7th best record in the whole league. And that's without our leading scorer for the last 5 years. This team is good. It's really good.

        Shall I name the teams that have a better record than the Pacers?

        Miami Heat, San Antonio Spurs, Oklahoma City Thunder, Memphis Grizzlies, Los Angeles Clippers, Denver Nuggets.

        Do you see these teams playing away games at their own freaking home? Well, the Clippers technically do since they share the court with the Lakers

        In any case, I think that you get what I'm saying, Peck. The Pacers are far too good of a team to have their home court invaded by opposing fans.
        Originally posted by IrishPacer
        Empty vessels make the most noise.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

          You hit the nail on the head about having to beat good teams. I've said that twice now in the last day or so. I am a diehard Pacers fan and want nothing more than to see this team succeed, but in order to be a good team you have to be able to beat the good teams. The Pacers aren't which says they aren't the good team we think they are. I'll point this out 1 more time that the Pacers aren't even beating the lower seeds in the EC. They have loosing records to Brooklyn, Boston, Atlanta, and Milwaukee. How can you be a good team beating the .500 and less teams while not beating the good teams? I know the Pacers have a winning record against Miami, NY, and Memphis; but what about the other 12 teams in playoff spots? Until this team starts beating good teams, they aren't the good team many feel they are. They are a team having a nice season against the poorer teams. I want more than that and just going to the playoffs where if the stars are in alignment they can get into the 2nd round of the playoffs.

          It's no secret that I wasn't a Bird the FO guy, but imo Bird saw this exact samething and knew the Pacers needed to upgrade to get there. Why keep expecting more and more from a core that can only give so much. Frustration sets in when one can't upgrade like they want, and you have to do with what you basically already have. Unless the Pacers can upgrade in some fashion, nothing is really going to change from what it currently is, a a team who can play well against .500 and below teams, but can't truly contend for a championship when they can't beat the good teams. JMOAA
          Last edited by Justin Tyme; 03-16-2013, 06:03 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

            Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
            just going to the playoffs where if the stars are in alignment they can get into the 2nd round of the playoffs.
            That's what you see in this team?
            Originally posted by IrishPacer
            Empty vessels make the most noise.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

              This loss hurt, and it hurt bad. Usually i am of the mantra "Dont get too high, dont get too low" blah blah. I guess its a combination of things..

              To lose to a Lakers team without Kobe Bryant on our home floor is straight up embarassing, i cant think of another way to put it.

              What is the Pacers record this season when BLF is sold out? It seems like every single time we have a full house, this team lays a huge turd on the court. Its like they're trying their best to keep people who are bordering on becoming more than causal fans away. Sell out?? What? We wont be having any of that nonsense! Cry about it all you want Hill, try winning a game against a more than beatable team with a packed house once in a while.

              The turnovers are completely out of hand, this isnt the first 1st month of the g**damn season anymore. This is completely unfixable IMO at this point. This is just not a smart team, yes they are very likeable, usually great on defense, and i believe they try hard and compete every game. They just play very, very stupid on offense and its not like this is anything new, its been happening all season.

              I think Roys recent hot stretch was a fluke and tonight is who he really is on offense, not the other way around.

              No aggresion on offense whatsoever, once again not a recent thing. We shot 9 FT's all game!! 9!!!!! The Lakers took 30 FT attempts to our 9, on our home floor. Like Reggie would say, Are you kidding me?

              Steve Blake everybody, 18 pts 6 Reb 7 ast 4 steals LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Is it too early to get his bust ready for Springfield? Oh wait he doesnt play the Pacers on the road when they're sold out every game? Oh, nevermind.

              Sorry this is a kneejerk reaction, and pretty damn negative but this game really hurt me to watch. This is worse than the Raptors losses or any other loss of the season to me for that matter. Now lets get on another winning streak against a bunch of crappy teams so we can cower next time we play an actual good team! Wait the Lakers arent a good team? Oh yeah
              Last edited by Ant; 03-16-2013, 07:17 AM.
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              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                Peck, screw the attendance. That's not the issue.

                Were you ok when the arena was cheering for the Lakers win? Because that was what sounded like on the feed. BLF cheering for the Lakers.

                Personally, I was embarrassed. That shouldn't happen. George Hill is 100% right, in my opinion.

                At times I just feel that this city does not deserve this team. I'm sorry to say it. You, Seth, Dave, Area 55, the G2 Zone and the rest of the die-hards certainly deserve them but the "casuals" are making me to almost hate Indiana at times
                Aren't you from Greece?

                I'd be more embarrassed about essentially bankrupting all of Europe, than I would be about what kind of support the Los Angeles Lakers have in Indiana.

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                  Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                  At times I just feel that this city does not deserve this team. I'm sorry to say it. You, Seth, Dave, Area 55, the G2 Zone and the rest of the die-hards certainly deserve them but the "casuals" are making me to almost hate Indiana at times
                  Guess you can follow them when they leave Indy then. Of course after the brawl years no other city wanted them because of their reputation either. I'm starting to personally take offense to PD fans constantly wanting the team to move "city does not deserve them" "almost hate Indiana". Well pick another team then if it helps.
                  You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                    Originally posted by RWB View Post
                    Guess you can follow them when they leave Indy then. Of course after the brawl years no other city wanted them because of their reputation either. I'm starting to personally take offense to PD fans constantly wanting the team to move "city does not deserve them" "almost hate Indiana". Well pick another team then if it helps.
                    Especially coming from people, sitting on their high horse, across a god damned ocean.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                      Originally posted by RWB View Post
                      ....I'm starting to personally take offense to PD fans constantly wanting the team to move "city does not deserve them"....
                      Do you think the city deserves them? I don't right now. I think the Pacers deserve more fans. I can only think of one consistently winning team that's had a worse overall fanbase and that's the Atlanta Hawks of the mid 90s.

                      This is one of my favorite all-time Pacers teams. They're easy to root for, they have almost every dynamic in basketball that a fan can ask for (fundamentals, speed, power, size, shooting, athleticism, smarts, energy, etc.), and they play very hard. Why can't they draw more fans?

                      I think it reflects poorly on Indiana in general. I think it's slightly embarrassing to see a Lakers game being played at BLF.
                      Last edited by imawhat; 03-16-2013, 09:03 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                        Just because every Pacer fan knows that Hibbert can't step out and defend the perimeter doesn't mean he isn't to blame when our PG can't keep his opponent in front of him or our PF is late to help.

                        You can't say he anchors the best team defense in the league and then when team defense fails, only look at Hill and West. Great defensive anchors also have theirs PGs back on the perimeter.

                        How many PGs would do a better job defending Nash in the same situation, fighting through a screen from Howard with Hibbert watching it from far distance?
                        Hill is much better defensively than Collison, but still we fail to defend those very good PG and quickly moving center duos.
                        Is it so impossible to think that the unchanged starter might have something to do with that?

                        This is why Hibbert will never win DPOY and fans keep wondering why o why.
                        My guess is that fans don't want to see it, because they realize that without a superstar or DPOY candidate (think Ben Wallace) the Pacers almost have no chance at all to win it all.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                          Originally posted by imawhat View Post
                          Do you think the city deserves them?
                          Everytime I walk into BLF, like last night, I think I should thank all the great taxpayers in the Indy metro for their contribution from their paycheck in building this great buiding. I believe that's what they're trying to do out in Sacramento and what they tried to do with the Sonics too. Yet they were alleged to have greater fans than Indy, they deserved their teams I've been told, yet Indy somehow was able to get a new arena on the backs of those who work there while in those cities with better fans it hasn't happened.

                          P.S. Nothing personal imawhat.
                          Last edited by RWB; 03-16-2013, 09:43 AM.
                          You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                            Nobody in the city or state of Indiana owes the Indiana Pacers their attendance. Also, it's nothing personal. This is a relatively small NBA city with a conservative culture (relatively speaking) and a low cost of living. People come here to get away from the coast and raise families.

                            As for the game last night, it was a bad performance by the BnG. I don't think we are playing as well as we were a few weeks ago...because I think we are better than the Kobe-less Lakers.
                            Last edited by BlueNGold; 03-16-2013, 09:27 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Surrender

                              I can take losses, what bothers me is when the Pacers play horribly like tonight

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