Coach Frank Vogel

[PacersPride]

simple poll.

Do you believe Frank Vogel can lead this team to the NBA Finals.

Frank is in his 2nd full season and I love Vogel as much as the next Pacer fan. I will give my opinion on this topic later in the thread. But the question is simple.

Does Vogel give this team the best chance to advance to the ECF and NBA Finals.

Is Frank Vogel the best coach for this team.

[Jessen]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

It's too soon too tell, but early indications aren't encouraging.

[joew8302]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

Only 1 of these choices was even somewhat positive for Vogel.

My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year? Is Danny Granger an absolute superstar who this team can not do without? Was our bench tremendous and we just downgraded? Or did Vogel just go to sleep one night and forget how to win games?

Frank is a good coach, not great, but good. Look at the turnound the pacers have made since replacing Obrien with Vogel. The record speaks for itself. Right now coaching can't overcome terrible ballhandeling, passing and shooting.

[Kid Minneapolis]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.

[Eleazar]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

My question to those of you who want to tear him apart right now is who should get the credit for last year?

If you read the complaints you should notice they are the exact same complaints from last year. It is all about his offensive system, and too much reliance on iso plays.

[ECKrueger]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

He's also young and not very experienced and therefore, might be prone to lulls like this and should be expected to grow as a coach over time, so making judgements after a slow start that has only spanned 5 games is pretty damn silly.

If people were expecting us to win a Title this year before Granger was injured, I think you are in a pipe dream. I do think Vogel will be an upper echelon coach within 5-10 years. Most people aren't that patient, but he'll only be in his mid-40s by that time.

Exactly. I said this somewhere else, but Vogel is not dumb. He knows we can be better and while he may not have all the tools to fix this, I would bet he realizes this is not how we should perform. He will try to fix it and I'm sure we will improve. The question to me is does be have to the ability to get better or not.

We have given Paul years now to get better. I realize Frank is in charge of an entire team, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need time to learn too. In regards to Shaw, if he's so great, why isn't be giving as many tips to Frank as possible? I do think Shaw is good, but I don't think he would do a much better job than Frank currently. Basically, I dot think all the blame is on the coach.

[Really?]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

He may not be the best but I do believe he is capable, he is a young coach who is growing in experience right along with the team. I almost don't blame him that we could only hit one shot in the last 5 minutes of the game yesterday. I will say I thought we should have ran some type of screen to get a guy an open 3.

[vnzla81]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

Vogel's offense sucks but I'm not going to blame him yet, he said he was going to make the offense less complicated yesterday, whatever that means? either way I think the blame should go to the front office for not giving Vogel the right pieces to make it work, they knew they needed a go to scorer and didn't get one, they knew they needed a rebounder/defender and didn't get one, if you look at the Pacers signings other than Roy and Hill(to be evaluated) they signed the equivalent of Travis Diener, Kareem Rush and Solomon Jones, the amazing part is that they did it by using the rest of cap space they had and not only that but they gave long term deals to two of them.

[CJ Jones]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

A good coach draws up plays to get his guys open looks. The game ending plays Frank has drawn up since he's been here haven't worked. That's not even taking into consideration the rest of his offense. He'd be a great bench coach, but I'm doubting his ability to lead a team.

[IndyJones]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.

[naptownmenace]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

Colin Cowherd had a great comment on his show about why fans turn on coaches so fast (yeah I can't believe I'm quoting him either). He said something to the effect that, fans turn on a coach and want him run out of town because they think that if a team isn't winning it's got to be the coaches fault. Firing the coach still leaves them with hope for their team and season. Turning on the players and realizing that they don't have good enough players leaves the fans without hope.

He also made the point that fans usually turn on a coach way before the players do.

[CJ Jones]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

It is probably easier to draw up successful plays when you have players who are capable of getting open/getting the ball to open players.

This has gone on now for over a year. The players deserve blame, but in the end it falls on Franks shoulders. Fair or unfair, that's the way it goes.

[Sparhawk]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

I just don't think he's an Xs and Os type of coach. Meaning constructing an offensive and defensive scheme that works, and utilizes our guys strengths. Maybe it's cause he learned too much from JOB and took away a lot of his learnings.

He's a great motivator, he's a great player manager, but you need to be more than that to coach in the NBA.

I honestly don't know what Shaw brings to the table. What's his part in all this? I don't know, so I can't really comment.

What I do know is that we don't seem to have an offensive scheme. In a pg league now, the Pacers system seems to absolutely destroy pgs value. Look at DC. Played well for NO. Sucked in Indiana. Playing very well for Dallas. DJ is a decent player. He may not be starter material like he was with the Bobcats, but you'd think he'd be one of the better backup pgs. So far you'd think we signed some DLeague scrub.

Pacers still have trouble with pick n rolls on defense. They still can't set proper picks/screens.

All this comes down to coaching and execution. I love Vogel, but I really think he's more of an assistant coach right now.

But who else is their? One of the Van Gundy's? There might not be a better option.

[Sparhawk]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

It could also be that the Pacers just don't have players with good BBIQs.

You can filll a team with nice guys that the community would respect, but if they are low IQs and can't execute out there, then no coach can fix that.

[Jay@Section12]

Re: Coach Frank Vogel

I'm not convinced Vogel is the long-term answer, never have been. I'm also not ready to give up on him. I'm hoping, though, that Brian Shaw gets a job somewhere else this next offseason so that he's out of the picture. Let somebody else deal with him.

I've got somebody different that I want in here after Shaw and Vogel are gone.

I don't have as much of a problem with Vogel's x's and o's as the rest of you. I also didn't have a problem with Carlisle's x's and o's even when I wanted Rick to be run out of town.

I don't feel like Frank has lost control of the team. But I'm not sure how high Frank's ceiling is right now or over the next couple of years. To me, this was a bigger concern two years ago when our team had no mental toughness. Having West and Hill take over the leader's role has made me less concerned about Frank's lack of experience on the hotseat.