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Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

    Let’s just be honest here, if Jordan Crawford didn’t hit 4 three point shots from Baltimore in the first quarter this game would probably have been over at the half. For the most part the Pacers defended him except for a couple of times where he pulled up 45 feet behind the arc to shoot it. (Ok 45’ is hyperbole but not by much).

    There were things to love about this game and things to not love about this game from our point of view.

    First of course is anytime you can get a win you have to be happy. Second this was really a trap game with the potential for a letdown, it didn’t happen. Third this one was put away early enough that not only did we get to rest our starters but we got to rest our bench as well.

    There were things not to love though as well. Our pick and roll defense once again was just abysmal and thank God the Wizards suck or a better team would have filleted us like a fish. Tonight it was so bad though that not only were our big men not in position to defend they often times in the second and third were so far out of rebounding position that we made Brian Cook look like Moses Malone on the glass.

    But what I loved more than anything about tonight’s win is this. We are clearly the superior team and it showed. There is a legitimate discussion about tanking vs. not tanking in how to build a team and tonight we had absolutely contrasting philosophies with contrasting results.

    When the “you must tank to get better” people speak they always spout the name Oklahoma City Thunder because they have become one of the best teams in the league and they did so by getting rid of all long term contracts and tanking for several seasons and got high draft picks.

    Well what they never talk about is the Washington Wizards who have been tanking for the better part of a couple of decades now. They have even had two number 1 overall picks & even if you throw out the bad pick of Kwame Brown they still have a player who was the consensus # 1 player in John Wall.

    Yet here they are again, one of the worst teams in the NBA with no immediate hope in the future and once again hoping to have a high draft pick.

    Contrast that to the Indiana Pacers who never truly tanked, yes O’Brien’s years here were miserable but we never had the high teen’s low 20 wins that teams do when they tank.

    Yet here we are third in the East and by almost everyone’s opinion (yes even those of us who can be cynical) we have a pretty bright future even if the Larry O’Brien trophy is not a guarantee.

    Look it is not fair for those of us who don’t believe in tanking to dismiss it outright because I have heard lots and I mean LOTS of players, analysts and even G.M.’s make the statement this year that you have to get bad to get good. So this isn’t just the crazy ideas of young kids who play NBA2K or those who want the exciting dunker, these are people in the know.

    Yet I still hold to the line of thinking that losing begets losing. It takes a rare special player and circumstance to get out of the muck and mire.

    However I don’t dismiss the other way either.

    With that in mind who was the best player on the court tonight? Was it the consensus # 1 draft pick or was it a player picked at 17?

    Speaking of John Wall I want to say this. For the sake of his career he needs out of that environment right now. He really needs to get to a veteran team and to a coach who will not tolerate crappy play.

    You can just watch him play and see that he is a poor fundamental player and has not had a coach force him to work on things that aren’t exciting.

    He obviously does not have the mental work ethic of Derrick Rose as even though he can’t make the player better around him Rose would never play like this in a game.

    They need to bring in a hard nosed head coach to run that club. A coach who Wall will not be able to manipulate. I don’t know if he does or not but I just get this sneaking suspicion that he does.

    Tonight were just going to do this Bullet Point style for brevity’s sake.

    • Danny Granger played so well that he only had to play 26 min. In that time he led us in scoring and was second in rebounding. Shoot in the second quarter he touched the ball so few times that even Croshere was complaining about it. He could easily have had a 30 point game if he wanted to, heck honestly a 40 point game wasn’t out of the question. They just had no answer for him.

    • Darren Collison made John Wall look the fool. Rare that those words can be uttered but tonight for sure they can. 11 to 1 assist to turn over ratio, 7 of 8 from the field. You can’t be more efficient than that.

    • Lou Amundson just means so much to the team that it can’t even be argued anymore. Here is a non stat play that he did. Ball came down with two Wizards around it and Lou got his hand in there causing them to roll the ball out of bounds off of their leg. There is no stat for that other than a turn over for the Wizards but that is what he brings as we retained the ball and scored.

    • Roy Hibbert was a shot blocking fool. On the other hand how do you play an entire game at center and not grab a single rebound? In all fairness there just were not a lot of rebounds tonight but still. He did just flat out erase several attempts and altered several others.

    • You know you can’t say he had a bad game but I can’t really say that Paul George had a good game either.

    • Tonight you got good Leandro and when he is on like that he will help you win games. We just have to hope we get more good than bad Leandro the rest of the season as when he is on he is instant offense.

    • Yeesh what is up with George Hills shot? Good Lord does he ever struggle at times. He played good Defense and passed well but my oh my is it hard to watch when he is shooting like that.

    • Remember when that one NBA analyst (I can’t remember who) said that Dahntay Jones’s contract was one of the worst signings in the NBA? I knew then he was nuts, he is being paid a very reasonable salary and he is a very valuable player on our team. The past two games he has been in the jersey of the opposition and taking on the leading scorer in both games. He gets very limited min. because he is behind Danny and yet he is ready when his number is called every time.

    Sadly the Heat beat the Thunder tonight so they are going to be riding a two game losing streak coming into the game & you know it is going to be hell trying to give them a third. But I’ve come to understand with our team you can neither count them in or out of any game so we will see come tip off. The player that scares me the most is Westbrook because we really have no one to match up to him.

    It can not go without noting that this is the first time all season we have been 12 games above .500%, this is NOT a small thing.

    We’ve certainly had rough stretches this season and lost a few we shouldn’t have but overall if I would have come to you in January of last year prior to Vogel taking over that we would be third in the east and 12 games above .500% would anybody have believed me? I know I wouldn’t have.

    So while I know it sure runs the risk of jinxing us I will once again state that the Pacers train is rolling.

    Oh and this is for both the Granger haters and any possible Knicks fan reading this.





    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

    Agreed on John Wall. He is wasting away out there. All the talent in the world, but no one there to discipline him and keep him in check as he grows as a player.


    And Danny Granger is a MAN!
    Last edited by Day-V; 04-05-2012, 01:33 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

      Great read as always..
      Last edited by DEEman; 04-05-2012, 08:17 AM.
      Proud owner of 'Dutch Pacers'

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      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

        Originally posted by Day-V View Post

        And Danny Granger is a MAN!
        i would hope so

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        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

          During the game, I told my 9 year old son that we are lucky that we aren't fans of the Wiz - the team closest geographically to where we live in Richmond, VA. Watching that team go through the motions is so frustrating from a fan's perspective. Some of those players have real talent, but they are a mess. No passion and no real focus on details or making winning plays. John Wall is not a leader, but his talent alone would really help the right team. As much as I wish for a talent upgrade at point, though, I would not want him on ours. He would be tough to root for.

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          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

            It was a great win. I agree though our Pick N Roll D is terrible.
            Couple things I take from this game.

            I can't believe DC basically froze out Danny for the entire 2nd Qtr. I think he only took 1 shot. That's unacceptable, your best player went on a tear with 13pts in the 1st. Comes back in and your starting PG doesn't get him the ball Wizards made their run in the 2nd, and we didn't have anybody making enough shots to counter that. Just terrible play by DC. It probably would have been a blow out before half time if DC feeds the beast.

            Kevin Seraphin....what the heck. How does this guy do it to us?

            You all give John Wall too much credit. He sucks. Terrible decision maker.
            You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              When the “you must tank to get better” people speak they always spout the name Oklahoma City Thunder because they have become one of the best teams in the league and they did so by getting rid of all long term contracts and tanking for several seasons and got high draft picks.
              While OKC clearly used the tanking procedure with the most success there was some element of luck involved along with mistakes made by other teams drafting in front of them.

              What if Portland took Durant instead of Oden?
              What if Miami or Memphis took Westbrook instead of Beasley and Mayo?
              What if Memphis took Hardin instead of Thabeet?

              Obviously they took advantage of their opportunity and the incompetence of other teams but they certainly had things fall their way or they could still be a lottery team.

              Also imagine what a beast Memphis could have been if they had added Westbrook and Hardin!

              Of course the Pacers were lucky teams passed on Hibbert, Granger and George.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

                Originally posted by Day-V View Post
                Agreed on John Wall. He is wasting away out there. All the talent in the world, but no one there to discipline him and keep him in check as he grows as a place.


                And Danny Granger is a MAN!
                Wall is definitely an interesting case. If he and Kyrie Irving would have been in the same draft, 30 teams would have taken Wall first, but at this point in their careers, the same 30 teams would probably rather have Irving.

                I think Byron Scott and the environment he's created in Cleveland have a lot to do with that. Also, from everything I've ever read, it looks like Kyrie is just a person of much higher character than John Wall.

                Washington's moving in the right direction, though. I like Singleton, Booker, and Nene. Now they just need a real head coach. I think a Van Gundy would be really good for Wall. Though it wouldn't surprise me if that's where Shaw winds up next year.

                By the way, I hate Jordan Crawford's game. I think Tim Donahue said it best on Twitter when he said that Crawford will score a lot of points for a lot of 20 win teams over the course of his career. He's a Barbosa/Jamal Crawford-type player. If he's my scorer of the bench, that's fine. If I have to start him or depend on him, I'm in a really bad place.
                "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

                - Salman Rushdie

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

                  Honestly, when it comes to being a hardass, a good coach for John Wall would be Jim O'Brien...

                  Now, they would have to lose Brian Cook as soon as possible, but that's another story.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

                    Originally posted by Larry Staverman View Post
                    While OKC clearly used the tanking procedure with the most success there was some element of luck involved along with mistakes made by other teams drafting in front of them.

                    What if Portland took Durant instead of Oden?
                    What if Miami or Memphis took Westbrook instead of Beasley and Mayo?
                    What if Memphis took Hardin instead of Thabeet?

                    Obviously they took advantage of their opportunity and the incompetence of other teams but they certainly had things fall their way or they could still be a lottery team.

                    Also imagine what a beast Memphis could have been if they had added Westbrook and Hardin!

                    Of course the Pacers were lucky teams passed on Hibbert, Granger and George.
                    The other thing that rarely gets mentioned when talking about OKC and tanking is that the losing started in Seattle and the team ended up moving. I don't see how anyone can praise a team that embraces losing to improve when that team ends up moving to a different city.

                    If they hadn't tanked, would they still be in Seattle? Do the Seattle fans look at the team and feel good about their OKC success? Do they think tanking was worth it?

                    (How much did poor play contribute to their move? I don't know, but I suspect it played a large part.)

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

                      Originally posted by Strummer View Post
                      (How much did poor play contribute to their move? I don't know, but I suspect it played a large part.)
                      Supposedly very little, this was all about the owner holding the city hostage for an arena.

                      On the other hand, if you have a winning team you are more likely to GET support for an arena.

                      Bottom line for me, though, is that the only thing tanking does is gets you in position for a pick while the picking is still good. It doesn't GUARANTEE anything, it just gives you more choices.
                      BillS

                      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

                        Poor PnR defense should not be a surprise. Because, if it is, that is an indicator that we have acclimated ourselves to it and just accept it as the norm, since other than Foster's efforts, poor PnR defense has been the norm for Pacer basketball for years.

                        If there is anything I wish we could acquire, it would be the ability to be much mor successful against the PnR and a better ability to stop the opposing PG from dribble penetration.

                        Do we see a common thread here?

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

                          I have a feeling that we are going to change our pick n roll defense strategy in the playoffs, similar fashion to how Vogel waited for the fourth quarter to go small, and not as soon as we went down by 17. Speculation of course, but nonetheless just a suspicion. The pick n roll defense strategy is so bad that I have to believe it's some kind of smokescreen.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Mr. Vogel goes to Washington

                            Originally posted by BringJackBack View Post
                            Honestly, when it comes to being a hardass, a good coach for John Wall would be Jim O'Brien...

                            Now, they would have to lose Brian Cook as soon as possible, but that's another story.
                            Brian Cook is Obie's kinda player. He has a pretty decent outside jumper. He's probably just gotten away from shooting it.

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                            • #15
                              As long as we have Collison and Hibbert, we'll have bad PnR defense.
                              Last edited by OakMoses; 04-05-2012, 04:44 PM.
                              "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

                              - Salman Rushdie

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