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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

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Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

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If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

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Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

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  • #31
    Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

    Originally posted by tadscout View Post
    He's a young player, making about what a 1st round draft pick would make... what's wrong with that?
    No one has even heard of him and I seriously doubt he would be a lottery pick which is what 5 million would cost a team.

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    • #32
      Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

      Originally posted by Gamble1 View Post
      I forget how much teams can help buyout a contract. Is it 500,000?
      about 525k it was raised in the new CBA

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      • #33
        Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

        Originally posted by Gamble1 View Post
        No one has even heard of him and I seriously doubt he would be a lottery pick which is what 5 million would cost a team.
        It averages out to be about 1.66 mil a year... with the third year a team option. It will have zero negative impact on selling the team.
        "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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        • #34
          Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

          Originally posted by tadscout View Post
          It averages out to be about 1.66 mil a year... with the third year a team option. It will have zero negative impact on selling the team.
          I read it as 3 years 5 million per.. I am probably wrong.

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          • #35
            Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

            Article regarding Charlotte's buyout of Biyombo's contract from Fuenlabrada - total buyout $1.5m

            http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...as-tricky.html

            Posted here because Gustavo Ayon plays for the same team (Fuenlabrada) and would probably need a similar buyout to play in the NBA.

            Interestingly, it was widely reported before the draft that Biyombo had an NBA out in his contract. Guess that wasn't true.

            The basic facts: Biyombo had signed a contract that would have paid him about $100,000 had he played for Fuenlabrada this season. The team clamed Biyombo owed Fuenlabrada 80 percent of his earnings, world-wide, for the foreseeable future.
            Sounds like some sort of legal extortion really.

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            • #36
              Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

              We should fiercely pursue this Gustavo guy.
              Last edited by Oliver; 12-20-2011, 12:53 PM.

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              • #37
                Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                Originally posted by wintermute View Post
                Article regarding Charlotte's buyout of Biyombo's contract from Fuenlabrada - total buyout $1.5m

                http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...as-tricky.html

                Posted here because Gustavo Ayon plays for the same team (Fuenlabrada) and would probably need a similar buyout to play in the NBA.

                Interestingly, it was widely reported before the draft that Biyombo had an NBA out in his contract. Guess that wasn't true.



                Sounds like some sort of legal extortion really.
                It is there was an article back in 04 that really exposes it. That is why they have a buyout limit that teams can pay so the other leagues dont get huge pay days.

                Most of the guys only make 80k a year and ask for a buyout of 3m it is absolutely ridiculous





                Buyouts in Europe Raise Alarm in the N.B.A.
                By CHRIS BROUSSARD


                here is a 12-year-old boy in Serbia whose 6-foot-11 frame has European scouts beside themselves, itching to sign him to a professional contract. The hope is not that he will one day blossom into a dominant player overseas but that in six or seven years the N.B.A. will come calling, leading to a financial boon worth millions for whatever club has his rights.

                Over the past few years, the selling of international players to teams in the National Basketball Association has become big business, and some agents and officials of N.B.A. teams believe it is becoming a big scandal, one in which international clubs are signing teenagers to long-term, relatively low-paying deals, then demanding buyouts worth significantly more than the original contract when they are drafted by an N.B.A. team.

                With international players becoming increasingly prominent in the N.B.A. draft and with buyout amounts escalating, there is a growing sense that FIBA, the sport's international governing body, and the N.B.A. should revamp the system. Some American agents likened it to a form of indentured servitude because N.B.A. rules forbid teams to pay more than $350,000 for an overseas buyout, so the player ends up paying the bulk of the money.

                "There has to be a committee formed by FIBA, the N.B.A. and all the governing bodies of basketball around the world because it's getting out of hand," said Tony Ronzone, the Detroit Pistons' director of international scouting. "Teams are now seeing the rewards they can get and they're looking for kids younger and younger, 12 and 13 years old, with the intention of signing them to contracts. It hasn't been done yet, but it's coming. It's going to come to a head sooner or later. In two years, something will have to be done."

                Two recent situations illustrate Ronzone's point. Maciej Lampe, the Knicks' second-round draft pick from Poland, made about $50,000 last year on a contract with Real Madrid that was to run through 2008. But the buyout clause in the contract was for $2.2 million, though the Knicks were able to whittle it to $900,000.

                And last week, Detroit completed a long, complicated negotiation with Hemofarm Vrsac for the rights to Darko Milicic, its first-round pick from Serbia and Montenegro. After telling Milicic's agent, Marc Cornstein, in February that it would take $15 million to buy him out of a nine-year contract that paid Milicic less than $100,000 last season, Hemofarm asked for $8 million to $10 million when approached by the Pistons after the draft.


                On Friday, the Pistons signed Milicic to a contract after agreeing to a buyout that was worth $3 million, according to a person briefed on the negotiations.

                "It's been quite a roller coaster to get to this day," Joe Dumars, the Pistons' president for basketball operations, said at Friday's news conference.

                Earlier, responding to a question sent via e-mail, Dumars said he believed the current system of transferring an international player's rights to the N.B.A. would "have to be addressed."

                Cornstein, who represents four foreign-born 2003 draft picks, was more outspoken.

                "The European teams sign these kids at a very young age to long-term deals for tiny amounts of money and then hold the N.B.A. teams over a barrel," he said. "They've found a way to strike it rich, and I think it's a major problem. The N.B.A. shouldn't be able to raid a European team, but at the same time, when the buyout is worth multiple times more than the contract itself, at what point does it go from compensation to extortion?"


                Few disagree with Cornstein's assertion that international clubs are seeking to profit from players who are drafted by the N.B.A. But representatives of FIBA and the N.B.A. said the system was unlikely to change.

                "I don't see how there can be any regulation," Russ Granik, the N.B.A.'s deputy commissioner, said. "And I don't see it as a huge problem because in the end, these things tend to work out. You may walk away thinking that maybe the European team got away with something, but it works out."

                Granik said one possible solution is for younger international players, on the advice of an agent, to reject long-term deals in favor of shorter contracts. But the European teams typically get to 14-year-olds before agents, and with many of the players coming from impoverished backgrounds, the deals they receive appear lucrative.

                "A $50,000 contract may be nothing by the standards of the L.A. Lakers, but in some places, that's a lot of money," Dirk-Reiner Martens, the legal adviser for FIBA, said in a telephone interview from Munich.

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                Ronzone believes a system similar to the N.B.A.'s rookie pay scale should be instituted: a percentage of a players' N.B.A. contract, based on draft position, would go toward a buyout.

                But Martens said the system could not, and should not, be changed. In 1990, FIBA, which represents 208 countries, including the United States, and the N.B.A. agreed to honor all legitimate contracts worldwide. Martens contends that the team holding a player's contract has the power to refuse any offers it receives or to say in effect, "make me an offer I can't refuse." He said anything else would be tantamount to overriding a nation's domestic law.

                "We should not interfere with contractual rights," Martens said. "Even if we were concerned, we have no way of changing the system. You have to abide by the laws. In the U.S., the N.B.A. has to abide by one legal system. At FIBA, we have to abide by 208 legal systems."

                Not all European teams are looking to recoup a tenfold return on their contracts. Benetton Treviso is known as the most N.B.A.-friendly international club; Maurizio Gherardini, Benetton's general manager, said the team would never ask for a buyout that exceeded the total value of a contract. When Denver made Benetton's Nikoloz Tskitishvili the fifth overall pick in 2002, Tskitishvili bought out his seven-year, $1.2 million contract for $1 million.

                "My rule is that it has to be something that makes sense and is reasonable for both parties," Gherardini said in a telephone interview from Stockholm, where he was watching the European championships. "I think a buyout that's higher than the contract is unreasonable."

                Not every agent believes the system borders on scandalous. Bill Duffy, whose clients include Yao Ming, Rasho Nesterovic and Marko Jaric, wishes that N.B.A. teams would pay more than $350,000 and not leave the financial burden to the players.

                "The European teams don't have the revenue from television, radio and ticket sales that the N.B.A. does, so one of their few ways of getting lucrative, long-term money is when a player is bought out of his contract," Duffy said.

                If an international team wants to make an exorbitant amount of money from a player it produced, more power to it, Martens said.

                "If I had a team in Europe and I invested a lot of money in the formation of a player - I took him to basketball school, fed him, paid all his expenses - and by the time he turns 17, he's a big prospect, I would try to make as long a contract as I can possibly make," Martens said. "Then, if an N.B.A. team comes along, I say, 'No, you can't have him, unless I get back a buyout and extra benefits.' And given the N.B.A. salaries, people get greedy and say: 'Ah, this is the N.B.A. The price goes up 10 times.' That's reality, and we can't stop it."
                the buyout limit is now up to 525k. So Bismack has to pay 800k out of pocket for his buyout to play in Charlotte.
                Last edited by pacer4ever; 12-20-2011, 04:53 PM.

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                • #38
                  Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                  Why are these international players signing long contracts for so little. WTF, talk about teams taking complete advantage of players.
                  First time in a long time, I've been happy with the team that was constructed, and now they struggle. I blame the coach.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                    Originally posted by Sparhawk View Post
                    Why are these international players signing long contracts for so little. WTF, talk about teams taking complete advantage of players.
                    Because in Mexico 50k is a **** ton same in Europe. If I was good enough at 14 to get a 100k per year contract you bet your *** I would sign it.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                      DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
                      Now its official I can finally say: Gustavo Ayon is a STEAL. Smart, tough, active, athletic 4/5. A young Jeff Foster. Well done New Orleans.
                      DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
                      Most of the NBA was quietly tracking Gustavo Ayon. Everyone wanted to keep him a secret, hence the lack of hype/buzz. Clearly a NBA player.
                      .

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                      • #41
                        Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                        It sounds like we missed out on a potentially great pick-up.

                        DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
                        In Spain. Arguably most productive player in league: draftexpress.com/profile/Gustav… RT @BKoremenos Where did Gustavo Ayon play before NO nabbed him?

                        DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
                        People are asking why didn't we write about Ayon? We no longer offer that type of information (international free agent scouting) publicly.

                        DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
                        Jeff Foster in his prime was an absolute stud. Efficient, rebounding MACHINE. RT @DanRoom Is comparing someone to Jeff Foster a good thing?

                        DraftExpress Jonathan Givony
                        6-10. Plays his *** off. Smart. Rebounds. Tough. Finds ways to score. Teammate. Perfect rotation big. RT @ekw248 School me on Gustavo Ayon.

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                        • #42
                          Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                          We should have passed on West and Pendergraph and gone for Gustavo and McRoberts instead. EDIT:Although I guess McBob might have left anyway.
                          Last edited by Oliver; 12-22-2011, 12:35 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                            Originally posted by Oliver View Post
                            We should have passed on West and Pendergraph and gone for Gustavo and McRoberts instead. EDIT:Although I guess McBob might have left anyway.
                            Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

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                            • #44
                              Re: Pacers after Gustavo Ayon

                              The international arena hasn't been kind to us of late.

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