Lockout News and Discussions thread

[Since86]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

The NFL doesn't have parity, but it has a sense of parity. It's still dominated by a few teams. The Pats, Steelers, and up til this season the Colts.

Each team doesn't have to win, but have a chance at winning. Any team in the NFL can be successful and win the SB.

There isn't any competitive advantage of being in a large market in the NFL. Or it isn't nearly as big.

EDIT: 15 different teams went to the SB during the 2000s. 8 NBA teams went to the NBA Finals during the 2000s.

[Trader Joe]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

The NFL doesn't have parity, but it has a sense of parity. It's still dominated by a few teams. The Pats, Steelers, and up til this season the Colts.

Each team doesn't have to win, but have a chance at winning. Any team in the NFL can be successful and win the SB.

There isn't any competitive advantage of being in a large market in the NFL. Or it isn't nearly as big.

The biggest indictment on the NBA IMO is that there are some well managed teams that still cannot become competitive. They either can't keep their young guys or can't attract the right free agent so they remain fringe playoff teams even though their management does a pretty good job.

Generally if you're a bad NFL team, coaching and management are pretty much always doing a bad job, same for if you're a good team. In the NBA, there are good teams with terrible management and average/bad teams with good management IMO.

[Sookie]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

I don't know that you really can create that in the NBA. The Lakers have been to 7 of the last 11 finals.

I don't think it's because they are a major market team. I think it's because they have Kobe Bryant. If you put a healthy Kobe Bryant on this Pacers team last season, the Pacers probably make a pretty good playoff run, possible trip to the finals.

One player can make a huge impact. And the problem is there is only one Kobe Bryant. And quite frankly, about 5 other superstar players worth that. And a great majority of them want to play for big market teams. Not for the money, any team would pay them the max, but for the exposure, and quite frankly the "fun" of being in LA or New York City, or Boston etc..

That's why small market teams need to build the way Detroit did. Not with superstars, but with a bunch of very good, maybe underrated, players that fit together well. But it just seems like every team likes to try and build like the major market teams, and that won't work.

I suppose you could try and limit free agency. But I think that's ridiculous for a various amount of reasons.

[daschysta]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

I don't know that you really can create that in the NBA. The Lakers have been to 7 of the last 11 finals.

I don't think it's because they are a major market team. I think it's because they have Kobe Bryant. If you put a healthy Kobe Bryant on this Pacers team last season, the Pacers probably make a pretty good playoff run, possible trip to the finals.

One player can make a huge impact. And the problem is there is only one Kobe Bryant. And quite frankly, about 5 other superstar players worth that. And a great majority of them want to play for big market teams. Not for the money, any team would pay them the max, but for the exposure, and quite frankly the "fun" of being in LA or New York City, or Boston etc..

That's why small market teams need to build the way Detroit did. Not with superstars, but with a bunch of very good, maybe underrated, players that fit together well. But it just seems like every team likes to try and build like the major market teams, and that won't work.

Your right, but it's difficult to even build that way right now. Not only can the big markets attract the superstars, they also overpay to surround them with the lineups that make them nigh unbeatable. It would be more conceivable to make an awesome balanced team if kobe wasn't also surrounded by an awesome balanced team.

Really to make it work though you have to do away with max contracts.

Also you don't have to limit free agency, just incentivize staying with the same team you're on/ that drafted you. Allow the team that currently holds the player to off SUBSTANTIALLY more money and years than a team signing a player inf ree agency, and don't allow sign and trades that transfer those benefits to the team receiving the player.

That way if a player really wants to leave, he can, and he can receive a good contract, but in doing so he's also leaving alot on the table. The bird exception is a good thing, as long as it can't get signed and traded.

[Taterhead]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

I don't know that you really can create that in the NBA. The Lakers have been to 7 of the last 11 finals.

I don't think it's because they are a major market team. I think it's because they have Kobe Bryant. If you put a healthy Kobe Bryant on this Pacers team last season, the Pacers probably make a pretty good playoff run, possible trip to the finals.

One player can make a huge impact. And the problem is there is only one Kobe Bryant. And quite frankly, about 5 other superstar players worth that. And a great majority of them want to play for big market teams. Not for the money, any team would pay them the max, but for the exposure, and quite frankly the "fun" of being in LA or New York City, or Boston etc..

That's why small market teams need to build the way Detroit did. Not with superstars, but with a bunch of very good, maybe underrated, players that fit together well. But it just seems like every team likes to try and build like the major market teams, and that won't work.

I really don't understand this view that superstars get more exposure in LA or NY. Has Peyton Manning lacked for exposure playing in Indy? Definitely not.

Is Lebron getting any more exposure now than he did in Cleveland? I don't think so.

The best players get the most exposure, no matter where they play. The media would love for these players to believe that. But it is not true.

No. People in Indiana might love basketball, but they don't love the Pacers and never really have. They don't even really love the Colts, they love the idea of the Colts winning.

What fan doesn't love the idea of their team winning? Why is that an indictment on Indianapolis?

It is just smart to spend your money where you get the most enjoyment. I've been to 15-20 Pacers games over the last few years. And for my entertainment dollar, I got ripped off 75% of the time. Nobody wants to spend money to watch their team lose most of their games, in any town.

Indianapolis, IMO, is definitely one of the best sports towns on the planet. And yes, they love the Colts and the Pacers. After all, they both play their games in arenas that are as good as you'll see anywhere in the world. It doesn't make sense to build those for teams you don't like that much.

[JB24]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

And yet Soccer in Spain thrives, even for the small teams.

Well, except it doesn't (for the small teams, i mean). They barely get by- take away the fan loyalty and most of them would collapse.

Soccer in Spain is what the NBA would look like without a salary cap ( 18 uncompetitive teams with two super-teams battling it out every season and non-existent revenue-sharing), but you'd also be compounding that with fickle basketball fans. How is this a good thing?

[able]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

The biggest indictment on the NBA IMO is that there are some well managed teams that still cannot become competitive. They either can't keep their young guys or can't attract the right free agent so they remain fringe playoff teams even though their management does a pretty good job.

Generally if you're a bad NFL team, coaching and management are pretty much always doing a bad job, same for if you're a good team. In the NBA, there are good teams with terrible management and average/bad teams with good management IMO.

What nba teams are well managed and not successful ?

This is not about parity
This is not about level playingfield

Those are never in the minds of the owners

They dont care how the other's are doing

They care about money, more and more and more.
They dont care about the bottom line, not one bit, the amnesty proposals simply prove that point.

The eagerness to lock out most of the season with some of the owners show definitely pre-conceived ideas.

This is all about more power and more money.

The idea it was a player's has to be destroyed, it has to be an owner's league again

Gilbert, Allan, how successfull are their franchises ? right, someone asked how Gilbert made his money ? does "Quicken Loan Arena" mean enough ?
Loan sharking, and on the side ? http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/70...ss-dan-gilbert casino owner.

And someone supports that canaille ?

The rats have taken over, Stern sick? maybe he declared himself such ashamed of what was taking place
Lakers the only source of income for poor Jerry ? really ? I suggest some google searches there.

Where does less money to the players makes it possible for small market teams to compete ? it doesn't of course, it only makes it easier to make money.

And that is what this is all about.

And if you think this is new ? than read a very nice book about the ABA, it tells you how they even then already found ways to circumvent hardcaps and agreements they made with each other about max-salaries
yes to max salaries but you never said we could not pay him for 25 years


if the Allan's and Gilbert's pf this world are now running the NBA, than the NBA is dead, just like the NHL, gone forever.

Let them lock out for a year, we probably see a new ABA formed.

have fun

[able]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

Well, except it doesn't (for the small teams, i mean). They barely get by- take away the fan loyalty and most of them would collapse.

Soccer in Spain is what the NBA would look like without a salary cap ( 18 uncompetitive teams with two super-teams battling it out every season and non-existent revenue-sharing), but you'd also be compounding that with fickle basketball fans. How is this a good thing?

You ever been to Spain ??
You ever seen that football ?
Ever hear of Valencia, Santander, Seville etc

know that Barcelona is not a business but a club owned by members ?
Has a stadium where 110 thousand socios go watch every game?
Has had no shirt-sponsor till this year?
Has gotten more money for that than the Pacers can make in 2 years?
Have until this year always played with "unicef" on their shirts?

that the EPL is far bigger financially then la liga espanol
that 5 or 6 top teams here are making it out
that surprises still exist
that such is life?

Manchester United and Liverpool are teams that can sell their won tv rights for more than the whole EPL can, including to approximately 78 other countries
That those teams "lose" money
But only on paper.

[speakout4]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

What do you mean they're not in the same category?

Their company, the NBA, is losing money because of player salary. Businesses that lose money, don't stay in business.

It's that simple.

A shortterm pay cut, for the NBPA (not talking individual players) enhances the probability that the business will start to make money. Meaning they will continue to grow, instead of shrink.

But they'd rather keep their pay, and hurt the stability of the league.

Sounds a lot like the GM unions when GM needed a bailout, to me. Instead of looking out for what's best for the company, and in return ALL employees, they'd rather keep what they have and risk losing it all.

The NFL situation was much much different. I'm always in favor of workers being able to get as high as salary, AS POSSIBLE. Salary shouldn't hurt the company's ability to prosper, especially when we're talking about employees that are being paid millions of dollars instead of $50,000.

Businesses in the real world start closing factories and laying off employees.

If the NBPA was looking out for all their members, instead of just the top earners, they'd like to keep all the jobs open. But instead, they'd rather teams disappear.

Because that's what is going to happen if teams continue losing money the way they're losing money.

I get the feeling that talking to you is the same as talking to someone from a foreign country. I have no idea how you arrive at the interpretations you do from what I or others say. You have a strange tone to your responses and we don't even disagree. Go figure.

[speakout4]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

I think the owners should cancel more than just two weeks, 3 weeks takes it into December and maybe that might get the players attention as that will ensure the players lose at least two paychecks

I have the terrible feeling that the owners have every intention of canceling the season but must do it incrementally. The number of weeks cancelled will get larger. Stern is already talking about canceling December and i don't think Stern is the kind that bluffs.

[owl]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

I just find it hard to believe that they want to cancel the season regardless of negotiations.
What???
Some of these big market teams may blow a gasket.
What is there to gain. A deal where the players get 43% like the owners?
We will sit out 2 years if that happens.
Don't buy it.

[Kstat]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

My working conspiracy theory is the NBA secretly wants the season to start Christmas day.

[Gamble1]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

This is all about more power and more money.

Well I agree with that but we have had a system that favored the players and it basically sucks IMO.

[90'sNBARocked]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

I just find it hard to believe that they want to cancel the season regardless of negotiations.
What???
Some of these big market teams may blow a gasket.
What is there to gain. A deal where the players get 43% like the owners?
We will sit out 2 years if that happens.
Don't buy it.

ya know what I was thinking bro?

Seriously, if they cant agree and arent really budging, how the heck can you seriously spend 25 hours in two days?

I mean if there not getting anywhere and its the same 4-5 issues what the heck are they talking about for so long?

[JB24]

Re: Lockout News and Discussions thread

You ever been to Spain ??
You ever seen that football ?
Ever hear of Valencia, Santander, Seville etc

know that Barcelona is not a business but a club owned by members ?
Has a stadium where 110 thousand socios go watch every game?
Has had no shirt-sponsor till this year?
Has gotten more money for that than the Pacers can make in 2 years?
Have until this year always played with "unicef" on their shirts?

that the EPL is far bigger financially then la liga espanol
that 5 or 6 top teams here are making it out
that surprises still exist
that such is life?

Manchester United and Liverpool are teams that can sell their won tv rights for more than the whole EPL can, including to approximately 78 other countries
That those teams "lose" money
But only on paper.

Yes
Yes
Yes. And they are all uncompetitive. La Liga is a glorified Scottish premier league- this is blatantly obvious. I don't care that Valencia made a couple flukey champions league finals 12 years ago or that santander were really good once upon a time.

Yes, they're democratic and accountable to their socis bla bla. They're still a brand and profits clearly mean a lot to them (look at how fiercely they defend themselves against revenue sharing)
Yes
Yes
Yes? Obviously? I think you're missing my point. The Pacers are the Levante of the NBA. Barca and Madrid are the Lakers and Knicks.
Yes. But they have a sponsor now, and a huge one. Madrid have had sponsors for years.

Yes. But it's also a stronger league overall- this isn't a surprise. The smaller teams actually make money.
Ok.

I think you have your leagues mixed up. The premier league sells rights collectively, similar to the nba. La liga teams sell them individually.
Some lose money. The stoke's of the league, well managed teams, don't. And they don't lose money nearly as badly as la liga teams do. Go and re-check why la liga players went on strike in september.

nba w/out salary cap= la liga, even worse