Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

[BRushWithDeath]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

OK, if what you are saying is true then if O'Brien was still the coach and he made every single change that Vogel has made, we would be getting the exact same performance from this team.

Exact same, no. Because the players still would have hated the coach. And make no mistake, they did hate the coach. Almost universally.

But there would be a huge improvement if he would have made the exact same on court adjustments Frank has made. Even if he kept being a negative dick with no people skills.

[Unclebuck]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

its the "new" normal. when you have true PF's in the game, were going to win the rebounding battle more often. it was evident back in november vs OKC when we got outrebounded that posey should not be in the game. josh and tyler are both better rebounders and its a critical ingredient to success.

less 3 pt attempts, and unselfish play. under JOb he wanted a shot taken within 6 seconds. which does not allow a rebounder down low to get good position(see above), also minimizes passing because the team is looking to jack up the first shot they can find and that was normally a 3, and we also have more of an inside scoring presence because of the inside-out strategy as opposed to the outside-in philosophy of Obrien. In addition to the above, there is also a set rotation now and players are better prepared.

As the other poster illustrated, if the only change was Vogel and nothing else, it would be the same exact results. however, that is not the answer you were looking for.

the "honeymoon" reference would apply more to a team like Charlotte, who replaced their coach, continued with similar rotations and offensive strategy yet improved.

This change has very little to do with a "honeymoon" period and more to do with an emphasis on more traditional basketball with players playing their traditional positions.

hypothetically speaking, if the pacers coached under Obrien were to play the pacers coached under Vogel.. the Vogel led pacers would easily win the rebouding battle 99% of the time. Obriens pacers would win some games because as the saying goes "live by the 3 die by the 3." when the obrien pacers were on fire, they would win, but more often than not the obrien pacers would not shoot well from outside, have no inside presence, and would lose the rebounding battle.

Vogels pacers make the opposing team work defensively, do not take bad shots, distribute the ball more efficiently, and have a much more balanced offense in contrast to a perimeter oriented offensive emphasis.

OK, if what you are saying is true then if O'Brien was still the coach and he made every single change that Vogel has made, we would be getting the exact same performance from this team.

[PacersPride]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

I'm just trying to figure out if this is the new normal or we are still in a honeymoon period. What is wrong with that.

its the "new" normal. when you have true PF's in the game, were going to win the rebounding battle more often. it was evident back in november vs OKC when we got outrebounded that posey should not be in the game. josh and tyler are both better rebounders and its a critical ingredient to success.

less 3 pt attempts, and unselfish play. under JOb he wanted a shot taken within 6 seconds. which does not allow a rebounder down low to get good position(see above), also minimizes passing because the team is looking to jack up the first shot they can find and that was normally a 3, and we also have more of an inside scoring presence because of the inside-out strategy as opposed to the outside-in philosophy of Obrien. In addition to the above, there is also a set rotation now and players are better prepared.

As the other poster illustrated, if the only change was Vogel and nothing else, it would be the same exact results. however, that is not the answer you were looking for.

the "honeymoon" reference would apply more to a team like Charlotte, who replaced their coach, continued with similar rotations and offensive strategy yet improved.

This change has very little to do with a "honeymoon" period and more to do with an emphasis on more traditional basketball with players playing their traditional positions.

hypothetically speaking, if the pacers coached under Obrien were to play the pacers coached under Vogel.. the Vogel led pacers would easily win the rebouding battle 99% of the time. Obriens pacers would win some games because as the saying goes "live by the 3 die by the 3." when the obrien pacers were on fire, they would win, but more often than not the obrien pacers would not shoot well from outside, have no inside presence, and would lose the rebounding battle.

Vogels pacers make the opposing team work defensively, do not take bad shots, distribute the ball more efficiently, and have a much more balanced offense in contrast to a perimeter oriented offensive emphasis.

maybe this isnt the "new" normal, its just normal; stretch 4's only work with unique players like Dirk, not posey or murphy.

good riddance to obrien.

[BlueNGold]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

If you didn't care for Jim's system and basically witnessed Vogel implement exactly what you've been wanting for well over a year, you will think the changes led to tangible improvements. Otherwise, you will think the team is on a temporary high.

But there is something that's really unavoidable.

Just for starters... Different players are getting minutes now. Both Tyler and Josh are getting minutes where Tyler had been benched in December and Jim benched Josh in early January. Posey and Solo, two of the worse players on the team IMO, are seeing the court much less. Also, Dahntay Jones is actually seeing the court, and probably won one of the games himself.

The team is shooting less threes. Based on a sampling of about 20 games, the average might be 18 a game versus maybe 23 with Jim. I didn't check any stats on this, but clearly they are shooting less...and almost certainly they don't feel forced to launch them. I think this last point is crucial.

The team is doing particularly well on the offensive glass. Statistically this is clear.

These are each substantive facts that are really irrefutable and have nothing to do with honeymoon talk. These are facts that simply have to have an impact...one way or another...on performance because they are changing the way the team is playing.

[McKeyFan]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

Sure, I'll gladly run around naked, I'll do that no matter what happens. We'll make it an annual event
LOL


I'm just trying to figure out if this is the new normal or we are still in a honeymoon period. What is wrong with that.


Now back to the naked thing, I need some witnesses, I can think of a few of you that would just have to be there

Well, if you can stop the devil's advocacy and also be naked and unashamed, that will get us all back to paradise.

[Unclebuck]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

If we go 16-10 instead of 10-16 will you do something to atone for all this skepticism and devil's advocating?

Will you write a five page post apology, or maybe run around monument circle naked?

Sure, I'll gladly run around naked, I'll do that no matter what happens. We'll make it an annual event
LOL


I'm just trying to figure out if this is the new normal or we are still in a honeymoon period. What is wrong with that.


Now back to the naked thing, I need some witnesses, I can think of a few of you that would just have to be there

[Justin Tyme]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

I

Will you write a five page post apology, or maybe run around monument circle naked?

I believe the citizens of Indianapolis would rather have the 5 page post apology than be subjected to having UB run naked around monument circle. Does IPD have a riot unit in case UB decides to run naked?

[vnzla81]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

If we go 16-10 instead of 10-16 will you do something to atone for all this skepticism and devil's advocating?

Will you write a five page post apology, or maybe run around monument circle naked?

I don't think I want to see that last part

[McKeyFan]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

Peck, I do disagree with this part of your post. this is more or less the honeymoon part of the equation which wears off after a couple of weeks. there would have been a bump. If by chance after the AS break the team goes 10-16 the last 3rd of the season then I would argue that the emotional honeymoon and not the on court changes is the primary reason why we are 5-1 right now.

If we go 16-10 instead of 10-16 will you do something to atone for all this skepticism and devil's advocating?

Will you write a five page post apology, or maybe run around monument circle naked?

[Hoop]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

Unclespazz, is that you?

[RWB]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

, a long term impact, a tangible impact vs what I might call the intangible impact of removing Jim and his personality, his negative style and changing that to Vogel and his positive style.

Why do I care? because I contend a lot of the intangible changes will wear off after a few weeks, I call it the honeymoon period where as the tangible changes will not wear off.

So if the tangible changes are what is causing the improved play and winning I would expect the good play to continue to a large degree otherwise I think the intangible benefits will wear off rather quickly.

Does that make any sense

I highlighted this part UB because I think some or at least myself consider the removal of Jim and his personality actually a tangible change.

[Mackey_Rose]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

I fear I'm doing a horrible job comminucating. because your post has almost completely nothing to do with what I am trying to discuss.

I am trying to compare a contrast two different parts of why the team is playing better. The technical aspect which I consider: for example using either Josh or Tyler as the power forward. Getting Roy down in the low post and getting him the ball, better offensive rebounding, simplifying the offense, running more pick and rolls, playing D. Jones, not playing Posey.....you name it there are many more I have not named - OK I am comparing and contrasting those types of moves which will have a permanant impact on the team, a long term impact, a tangible impact vs what I might call the intangible impact of removing Jim and his personality, his negative style and changing that to Vogel and his positive style.

Why do I care, because I contend a lot of the intangible changes will wear off after a few weeks, I call it the honeymoon period where as the tangible changes will not wear off.

So if the tangible changes are what is causing the improved play and winning I would expect the good play to continue to a large degree otherwise I think the intangible benefits will wear off rather quickly.

Does that make any sense

I suspect that I think the changes are indeed a lot more tangible than you seem to. Do I think this team will win 5 out of every 6 games the rest of the way? Not at all. But I do think they are going to be better off going forward than they were before a coaching change was made.

[Unclebuck]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

Not exactly sure how an improved emotional Josh McRoberts would have almost had a triple double last night while wearing a suite rooting James Posey from the bench.

Did Danny Granger being happy make him shoot over 50% from the field?

I guess I just don't follow the logic here.

Yes, being more happy will increase your production. However you can not equate being happy with playing time vs. being happy with no playing time.

You do remember that Josh was inactive for a good portion of January right?

I fear I'm doing a horrible job comminucating. because your post has almost completely nothing to do with what I am trying to discuss.

I am trying to compare & contrast 2 different parts of why the team is playing better. The technical aspect which I consider: for example using either Josh or Tyler as the power forward. Getting Roy down in the low post and getting him the ball, better offensive rebounding, simplifying the offense, running more pick and rolls, playing D. Jones, not playing Posey.....you name it there are many more I have not named - OK I am comparing and contrasting those types of moves which will have a permanant impact on the team, a long term impact, a tangible impact vs what I might call the intangible impact of removing Jim and his personality, his negative style and changing that to Vogel and his positive style.

Why do I care? because I contend a lot of the intangible changes will wear off after a few weeks, I call it the honeymoon period where as the tangible changes will not wear off.

So if the tangible changes are what is causing the improved play and winning I would expect the good play to continue to a large degree otherwise I think the intangible benefits will wear off rather quickly.

Does that make any sense

[Peck]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

Peck, I agree with your point that the on the court changes have had a big impact, but I guess we'll know more in a few weeks how much of the improved play is the emotional part of just having Jim gone vs the on court technical changes. Obviously it is some of both. Is it 50/50 is it 80/20 I don't know.

Peck, I do disagree with this part of your post. this is more or less the honeymoon part of the equation which wears off after a couple of weeks. there would have been a bump. If by chance after the AS break the team goes 10-16 the last 3rd of the season then I would argue that the emotional honeymoon and not the on court changes is the primary reason why we are 5-1 right now.

Not exactly sure how an improved emotional Josh McRoberts would have almost had a triple double last night while wearing a suite rooting James Posey from the bench.

Did Danny Granger being happy make him shoot over 50% from the field?

I guess I just don't follow the logic here.

Yes, being more happy will increase your production. However you can not equate being happy with playing time vs. being happy with no playing time.

You do remember that Josh was inactive for a good portion of January right?

[vnzla81]

Re: Odd Thoughts: Skinning the Cats

Peck, I agree with your point that the on the court changes have had a big impact, but I guess we'll know more in a few weeks how much of the improved play is the emotional part of just having Jim gone vs the on court technical changes. Obviously it is some of both. Is it 50/50 is it 80/20 I don't know

Roy himself said yesterday that there is no way the could have won a game like that two weeks ago, that should tell you how they felt about Jim and his system.