Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

[Anthem]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

A player cannot be traded in combination with other players for two months after being acquired through a trade or being claimed off waivers. However, a player can be traded by himself, and the number of players that comes back in the trade is unimportant. Therefore, it doesn't have to be 1-for-1, only 1-for-X.

Excellent work, as always count.

My point was simply that it's a legal trade to move Murphy for Hinrich.

[count55]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

Per the CBA, there are restrictions that apply to a player who has just signed a new contract. Such players cannot be traded for either a period of 3 months or before December 15th, depending on which qualification is satisfied first. There are 2 exceptions to this rule. Unless rights are traded during the draft itself, recently drafted players cannot be traded until 30 days following their signing of a contract. And, sign-and-trade arrangements can be completed with no regard to the 3-month waiting period (or having to wait until December 15th).

This is right, except for the bolded part. It is actually whichever is later. No players signed as free agents this summer will be eligible to be traded until December 15th, despite the fact that the three month time will have elapsed for most long before that.

Also, the S&T sentence is sorta correct, and sorta wrong. The 3-month waiting period clearly doesn't apply, but there is a time limit on the S&T. An S&T is considered a single transaction by the CBA, so there is a clause in these contracts that says the contract is voided if the trade is not made within 48 hours.

Also, the CBA is mute on whether a player who has just been signed-and-traded is subject to the three month rule. The literal reading says they are, but the league has said it is undefined, and will not rule until such a case occurs. (IOW - this will probably never happen, so why commit?)

I was under the impression that such a deal was only in combination with other players. A player acquired via trade can be traded in a 1-for-1 swap.

That's the impression I had as well.

A player cannot be traded in combination with other players for two months after being aquired through a trade or being claimed off waivers. However, a player can be traded by himself, and the number of players that comes back in the trade is unimportant. Therefore, it doesn't have to be 1-for-1, only 1-for-X.

The most ready example would be Rasheed Wallace, who was traded by Atlanta just 10 days after they got him in a trade from Portland. Sheed went out by himself, but Atlanta got back Bobby Sura, Zeljko Rebraca, Chris Mills and a 1st.

It's also important to keep in mind that all trades that get done are not necessarily one trade. It is common for teams to complete what appears to be a single transaction by structuring the "deal" as multiple trades. This most commonly occurs when a TPE is used, since they cannot be combined with anything.

Therefore, it's possible for a player to be traded in apparent combination with other players less than two months after acquisition, if the deal can actually be structured, technically, in such a way that it is multiple trades including one where the player is being traded by himself.

EDIT: There is no limit on the number of players that can be involved in an S&T from either side. The signed player is treated just as any other player, with the sole exception that he must be included in the deal, and it must happen within 48 hours of signing.

[Justin Tyme]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

I was under the impression that such a deal was only in combination with other players. A player acquired via trade can be traded in a 1-for-1 swap.

That's the impression I had as well.

[Gamble1]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

I wasn't making that assumption. Danman was. He said Lebron would be paid $30 or $50 million because of ticket sales. I am supposing that "butts in seats" refers to ticket sales.

It is certainly right that NBA teams collect revenue in other ways than ticket sales. But that isn't what danman stated or what I replied to.

Got ya but 107% of total sales is very misleading IMO.

In any case I think owners would pay Lebron 30 million per year to have him on their team.

[Anthem]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

Per the CBA, there are restrictions that apply to a player who has just signed a new contract. Such players cannot be traded for either a period of 3 months or before December 15th, depending on which qualification is satisfied first. There are 2 exceptions to this rule. Unless rights are traded during the draft itself, recently drafted players cannot be traded until 30 days following their signing of a contract. And, sign-and-trade arrangements can be completed with no regard to the 3-month waiting period (or having to wait until December 15th).

I was under the impression that such a deal was only in combination with other players. A player acquired via trade can be traded in a 1-for-1 swap.

[Jim R]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

He's got to be available, right? Washington just took him for the pick. They don't need a $9mil backup to Wall and Arenas. They need frontcourt players. They'd love to not pay that big salary next year.

On the other hand, Hinrich could be fine for us, salary-wise. If we traded Troy Murphy for him (which works, BTW), we'd immediately cut almost 3mil from our budget this year. We'd have to pay him next year, but his salary is one of the few in the NBA that actually goes DOWN at the end of this contract.

The kid's durable. He can hit the 3. He can run a team. He's a good defender.

He's not worth the money he's making, sure. If he's one of your 2 or 3 best players, you're in trouble. But he'd be a big step up from TJ, and he should mesh well with the Rush/Granger/Hibbert.

Why are we not pursuing Captain Kirk?

Late to this discussion, but I would doubt the Pacers do much to screw up their cap space after this season. Not saying they won't bring back salary, but Hinrich hasn't been the same player since his injuries. I have been a big Hinrich fan over the years, but the year before the Bulls landed Rose, Hinrich wasn't pretty average. He certainly didn't show any improvement from the strong year he had before that.

I'm still in the Ramon Sessions camp, cheaper, younger, and was stellar when he had a chance to start for Milwaukee. If people want to discount that because of the way the season ended for the Bucks that year (injuries to Redd and Bogut), it's pretty much the same resume Darren Collison has. Sessions has three inches on him and is a better (though not great) defender.

That said, I can't for the life of me figure out what David Kahn is trying to do in Minnesota. I get it's about assets when you're a team on the build, but it seems like Sessions has been pulled out of trades. Then again, Larry Bird's post draft comments about possible deals around draft day, he implied that all the trade rumors linking the Pacers to point guards involved back-up caliber players. I would rather take a chance on Sessions, Collison, etc, than players with high mileage and/or those who have been discarded by other teams.

Of course, if I was Sessions, I'd fire my agent.

[PacersPride]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

I don't think the Wizards are looking to trade Hinrich. They will use him at both guard positions so he'll get plenty of minutes and play a major role for them as a sixth man.

And I certainly wouldn't give up any of our picks to get him, especially in addition to an expiring contract. You want us to take on his contract? You give us a pick.

i suggested a second rounder, its not a lottery pick im recommending. and i even went on to state the way Bird has been plucking talented players in the second round i would be a little more hesitant.

Ford/2nd rounder for Hinrich.. i would do that before giving up murph for hinrich, or at least offer it.

2nd round draft picks generally speaking do not have much value. its like a 5th round draft choice in the nfl depending upon where the selection is in the round.

[PacersPride]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

Who would send us draft picks (JUST draft picks) for Murphy?

im not gonna spend an hour researching it, but my guess would be a team competing for a championship. if what your saying is true.. who is gonna send us anything in return for murphy?

i wasnt saying just draft picks, what i was referring to was more along the lines of a player with a contract set to expire who is not equal to murphy in value and they add picks to the trade.

w/o doing the research, MAYBE... Orlando, Phoenix, Mavs.. not many teams i can think of.. but basically a team that would likely be selecting in the twenties. also, perhaps a team that is under the cap where we take back one bad contract for 6 mill, and give them murph, and they give us back a draft choice or two for taking back the less talented players expiring contract.

if you cannot find a team that would give us back draft choices.. are there any teams at all willing to trade for murphy. more specifically, are the wizards the only team were hoping has interest in murph?

[beast23]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

i hear ya, but this point may be moot anyways. i dont think a player can be traded again until 2 months into the season. some sort of stipulation i read somewhere but i cannot be absolutely certain that is accurate.

Per the CBA, there are restrictions that apply to a player who has just signed a new contract. Such players cannot be traded for either a period of 3 months or before December 15th, depending on which qualification is satisfied first. There are 2 exceptions to this rule. Unless rights are traded during the draft itself, recently drafted players cannot be traded until 30 days following their signing of a contract. And, sign-and-trade arrangements can be completed with no regard to the 3-month waiting period (or having to wait until December 15th).

[LA_Confidential]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

Arenas Would Fill Some Seats At The Field House. Especially With His Uncanny Ability to Hit Half-Court End Of Quarter, Half, Game Buzzer Beating Shots.
U Can Call Me Crazy For Wanting Gil On The Pacers. In My Defense, I Live In DC And I Watched Him Almost Single Handedly Breath LIFE Back Into The Fan Base Here. He Is Not A Bad Guy.
As A Pacer Fan I Know He Could Bring The Same Enthusiasm Back to Our Fans.

[danman]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

I wasn't making that assumption. Danman was. He said Lebron would be paid $30 or $50 million because of ticket sales. I am supposing that "butts in seats" refers to ticket sales.

It is certainly right that NBA teams collect revenue in other ways than ticket sales. But that isn't what danman stated or what I replied to.

Uh, for the record, the "butts in seats" was an expressive way of saying he's reeeaaaallly popular. The expression usually refers to movie stars who get paid 20M per movie. And who, incidentally, create a lot of wealth that doesn't literally tie to butts in seats.

And back on the track, I kinda like Hinrich. Just not at 8-9M per season. I think he'll thrive in a role as a backup combo guard for his new team... ideal role for him.

[LA_Confidential]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

Very bad for PR, and he is a very selfish player.

I Could Understand How He COULD Be Bad For PR But He Is A Far Cry From A Bad Guy Or A Nut Case. This Is A "Second Chance" Society And Arenas Has No Other Option But To Prove His Worth IMO. He Also Averaged 7 Assists per Along With His 22ppg Before His Suspension.

Not to mention, Arenas has injury prone that last few years.

He Had An ACL Injury Three Years Ago. Its Been Noted That ACL Injuries Usually Take At Least Two Years To Fully Recover From. His 22, 7 and 4 Averages Re An Indication That He's Back To His All Star Form.

Long Story Short, Gil Is A More Realistic And Quite Frankly Better Option Than A Lot Of The PG's That Have Been Mentioned. Believe It Or Not If Gil Was A Pacer It Would Be Hard To Argue That He Isnt The Best Player On The Team.

[Kuq_e_Zi91]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

I don't think the Wizards are looking to trade Hinrich. They will use him at both guard positions so he'll get plenty of minutes and play a major role for them as a sixth man.

And I certainly wouldn't give up any of our picks to get him, especially in addition to an expiring contract. You want us to take on his contract? You give us a pick.

[Anthem]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

i like the hinrich idea considerably, but would prefer ford be sent out rather than murph. at a minimum murph should net us some draft picks in return.

Who would send us draft picks (JUST draft picks) for Murphy?

[Putnam]

Re: Why is Kirk Hinrich not getting more mention as a Pacers target?

Ya if you assume that seats are the main source of revenue. Come one Putnam. You know better than this.

I wasn't making that assumption. Danman was. He said Lebron would be paid $30 or $50 million because of ticket sales. I am supposing that "butts in seats" refers to ticket sales.

It is certainly right that NBA teams collect revenue in other ways than ticket sales. But that isn't what danman stated or what I replied to.