The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
Ok I could've worded it better... I'd rather they keep their mouths shut instead of posting articles that the majority of us here think contradict what we see on the court and/or what we think they should be doing. Posting this article accomplished nothing other than igniting this debate here, the casual fan most likely is not reading pacers.com articles, so I see little point for this article.Originally posted by BillS View Post
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
Here's the problem with this crap, you are assuming that either:Originally posted by cdash View Post
A) we would lose our lunch if these guys lost since we fawn over them and would be proven wrong or foolish if they stunk
B) they would win and that would anger us because of draft status
If:
A) we don't care about the losses, we want to watch development since this is the ONLY productive thing that was ever a realistic goal this season.
B) even now there are only those fringe people pushing for tanking, whereas if the kids had been playing well enough to win games it would obviously be tying directly into what our main desire is - DEVELOPMENT FOR THE FUTURE
If the kids are learning to play ball enough to win games now, what's that say about next year?
Forget the 10 people on here that want them to lose their way to Wall. I PAY to go to games and I don't want tanking. I want to watch someone try to play QUALITY BASKETBALL. Sure Price isn't Nash, but I'd like to see him trying to play a game that smart. Josh isn't Aldridge, but I could really enjoy him learning to run a tight, reliable PnR off of Rush. And so on.
As for showcasing, as the AJ/Rush rumor proves, you can showcase ANYONE. How many of the guys that were traded were actually showcased rather than being used about where they would be anyway? Why not showcase Josh and improve his value as spice in a trade, which often involve a team taking a vet deal specifically to get at the young potential prospect that comes with him.
Plus why do teams pull potentially traded guys during games that last night? Injuries that could ruin the deal. So why risk Troy to injury?
Cleveland saw all they needed to from Troy the last time they played them, so the next few games needed no more showcasing.
In fact what team, what scout is going to say "well I have 4 years of observations on this guy, but last week he was on fire so I'm throwing all those other notes out the window". And that cuts the other way too, a few bad games wouldn't make a team pass on Amare.Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 02-24-2010, 12:13 PM.
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
Took out the "snide" because you are implying that the comment is somehow not a legitimate opinion.and statements that "well, ifwas healthy they wouldn't play" are beside the point.
And the comment isn't beside the point, it's directly on point. The article is spinning a "youth development" angle, not just a technical report of the minutes log. The playing time is used as SUPPORT MATERIAL of the premise, that the kids aren't being set aside or forgotten.
And so statements discussing the WHY for the playing time are 100% on point as they counter the use of minutes played as statistical proof of player development goals.
I'm really tiring of all this technicality crap. It's identical to "I'm not touching you" games where the point isn't to touch but to annoy.
When I say "Tyler is shooting below 40%" in a debate about the best offensive player on the team, you damn sure aren't saying "oh, he's merely reciting a statistical fact with no other implication behind it, perfectly harmless".
And the funniest part is that you are using technicality talk to defend an article that is itself pulling technicality tricks out in order to falsely support an untenable premise.
Josh is an NBA starter because he has started NBA games. He's the best shooting starting forward on the team. He shoots 60% in his starts this year. He's not as good when coming off the bench, but no one has shot it better when they start for the team at PF this year.
Don't get mad at me, I'm just stating the facts here with no opinion tied to them.
There you go - technicality games. Is that where we want debates to devolve to?Comment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
That is who this article is directed at....as you suggested...a PR Fluff piece that was aimed at the casual Pacer fan that only knows about the Pacers as the "Other Sports" team in Indy and nothing of the daily "trappings" that go on with this Team from a game to game basis.Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
I know that you're growing weary of all this negativity....but honestly, are you really surprised that we ( as hardcore fans that devote half their day to a forum that talks specifically about the Pacers ) are reacting to this article like this?Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.Comment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
I know that I am one the guys who keeps talking about tanking, the true is that if the pacers start playing the young guys and they start winning games I will be happy, because I would know that next year is going to be better, the problem is that right now we don't know what we have in the young players and we already know what we have in the veterans(not much)plus this veterans are not going to be here in two years, so why stop developing on the young guys to give the veterans playing time so we can get one or two more wins? it does not make sence
another thing can the JOB and playing veterans supporters explaing to me how the pacers are going to get better if is not by playing the young guys or getting high draft picks? do they know anything that I don't know? thanks
@WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
I agree that it would be BS to have things break this way for him. All players should get the chance to make or break on their own merits.Originally posted by Hicks View Post
OTOH it could be the making of a great story as he overcomes the early setbacks and shoves it in the face of doubters like me as he triumphantly returns and makes the NBA pay for doubting him.Comment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
This organization is just tearing us apart... don't you all see that
But seriously I think the main frustration is no direction. Though players can improve through practice, and through watching a learning, that doesn't work for everybody. We're human beings and we all learn things differently.
And some of us learn by being in the situation, and that's where I think our growth is hampered. There's not enough on the job experience taking place. I don't mind Murphy,Dunleavy or Ford playing. Not even Watson (even though his offensive mentality has recently wore thin on me). I actually don't even care if they get the majority of the minutes.
What I do care about though and most will probably agree, is that I would prefer to see what a player that MAY fit into the future can do once in awhile, instead of seeing a player we know isn't apart of the plans do something I'm already aware they can do.
If we're winning games, or staying competitive, it's not the biggest deal. But when you're losing games, playing guys out of position, and getting blown out at times, then you want to see fresh faces. I mean there has been games when mop up minutes have been hard to come by for our younger players... that should NEVER happen on this team.
And though garbage minutes count as minutes, that's not the type of minutes I want the youth to get. If they're onyl going to play 3-5 minutes, then make those 3-5 minutes occur when it can matter. Let's not play guys out of position, or keep guys on the floor when they're not getting the job done, try to find a spark.
We've been with Foster and Hansbrough for a good portion of the season, we've also been out of the playoff hunt for a good portion of the season. There's no reason to have guys like Dunleavy and Dahntay playing the PF position.. none. There is times where Granger shouldn't be there as well. Why no Solo or McRoberts? If small ball gives us the best chance of winning, why have we only won 19 games this year?
I can't say I've seen many teams in the league that lose a big to the bench or injury, and come back with a 6'6 SG/SF. Pau Gasol was in foul trouble the other night. The Lakers didn't bring in Walton or even Ron Artest, they brought in Dj Mbenga. When his brother had foul trouble in Memphis, they brought in Haddadi, not Sam Young, or Demare Carroll (though they would both be better then our small ball options)
Other teams bring in muscle or more size, even if it's for 10 days from the D-League. Yet we always put our guys at a disadvantage. Even with Hibbert not being on the court if another team goes small.
I just don't get it, I don't see the point, and I think some of us will struggle with the decisions made by the organization until we do see the point or purpose.
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
My reaction isn't to Bruno himself but the PR line in total.Originally posted by Brad8888 View Post
I'm really tired of week after week hearing things that don't mesh with what we've been seeing for a long time now.
Rush did get dumped to the deep bench mid-season last year, DNP-CD deep. That's not youth development. And that was in favor of playing the STILL INJURED Dunleavy, which ended with him shutting it down and getting surgery.
Magically after this Rush's "development plan" resurfaced.
BTW, to reinforce this point - ALL these guys might be gone in 3 years. But we know that the primary objective is to move the expensive vets first and try to build off the younger, cheaper players.
You need to find out now and next year if you want to keep guys like Rush, Roy and Price and you do that by working with them in games. How can they decide who they want to trade for or draft if they don't even know what they already have???
ps - this was my Josh rant LAST year, try him out now before you go chasing after 1 of the 2 PFs available to you in a PG heavy draft.
Imagine drafting Tweety Carter at 8th this year rather than one of the PFs because you aren't sure if Price will cut it. That to me is very similar to what they did last year with Jo****yler. You play Josh to make sure he can't do for you what Tyler (or Blair) would do, because if he can then you go after a PG instead while there are tons on the board.
The cost of playing Josh (and Roy) more last year? No impact on that season (missed playoffs anyway), reduce minutes for Rasho (no impact on future of team at all), reduce minutes for Troy or Jeff (limit Jeff's wear, Troy is being shopped anyway).
So it was FREE. Literally no negative impact with a chance to find out if you need to draft a PF right now or already have one.
I mean it's like passing on the chance to scout players before the draft. Why would you do that?
900 minutes later you think "wow, Josh stinks" and you go ahead and draft Tyler, but with the knowledge that you tried to do something for free first just to be sure.Comment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
It's something that is hardly ever mentioned in sports.Originally posted by Anthem View Post
He sits with the team so I wouldn't think it's so bad that it's career-ending. If it was much worse he'd probably be at home laying down for the past weeks.
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
Originally posted by Sookie View Post
I can't understand how anyone would disagree with this. Some people also act like this is some radical philosophy, what JOB is doing is the radical philosophy. Bottom feeder teams play the hell out of their young core, that is standard in the NBA. That is what OKC did, and look where they are now? You can say we don't have that kind of young talent, fair enough, but the fact is our veterans stink and trying to squeeze 4-5 extra wins out of them only hurts the franchise in the long run. Develop what you have, and get a talent influx through the draft. Standard operating procedure.
Fact is, JOB won't magically get our vets on enough of a run this year to turn any heads or help attendance anyway. There is no shot at the playoffs. The extra 4-5 wins (which I don't even believe would happen, but that is another argument) does nothing but hurt draft position. Like Seth said, get that win streak relying on youth? different story. That means the young core is making progress. You are in a better position to make decisions when you reach the offseason. Maybe one of those young player's makes extra progress and gains some value for a trade. The only value of the vets is as expiring contracts, showcasing them is irrelevant at this point."As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."
- ilive4sportsComment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
I am not a "playing veterans supporter" but I'll answer your questions.Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
another thing can the JOB and playing veterans supporters explaing to me how the pacers are going to get better if is not by playing the young guys or getting high draft picks? do they know anything that I don't know? thanks
Trades can improve your team. Signing free agents can improve your team, players coming back from injuries can improve your team. Young players learning about the NBA through practice, film work, discussion can improve your team. Getting a middle round draft pick and taking the correct player(Granger) can improve your team. I could list a few more, but I have a meeting. Ok, changing coaches can improve your team,Last edited by Unclebuck; 02-24-2010, 02:03 PM.Comment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
I'm trying to think how to answer this.Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
IF the discussion was about player development as a GOAL, and IF the article was saying that JOB's goal the entire season was to develop players through playing time, THEN perhaps using that "what if" question might be a valid direction to take.
However, the article is NOT saying that. It seems to me, even, that JOB's quote could be taken to mean he doesn't believe in playing time as the best source of development, which actually matches what we tend to see.
The article never talks about there having been a GOAL of development, nor does it praise anyone (or even refer to anyone) for CHOOSING to develop players. It only talks about the playing time the players HAVE gotten and that this should be seen as player development.
Therefore, using that particular "what if" question as part of an argument to slam the article for being false makes no sense.
I don't think that is a technicality, just a way to keep the commentary on the article rather than having it turn to the same old "JOB would never do..." discussion, which isn't the point here.BillS
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...Comment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
sorry I tought you wasUnclebuck;964837]I am not a "playing veterans supporter" but I'll answer your questions.
I agree with this but right now they have not been in position to make a trade or trades because their only valuable piece was Troy MurphyTrades can improve your team
you can't do this if you don't have any money, they only free agents the pacers got were low level free agents and as you can see they have not help the pacers to win anything.Signing free agents can improve your team
.players coming back from injuries can improve your team
we can only hope for them to come back, but this can't be use as an excuse, in fact Dunleavy's come back affected the pacers in a negative way.
Young player learn the game by playing it, film work practice and all that helps but playing real games is what helps them more.Young players learning about the NBA through practice, film work, discussion can improve your team.
.Getting a middle round draft pick and taking the correct player(Granger) can improve your team
you can only get lucky once in a while, the pacers got lucky because teams were scare of Danny's knee, the way the NBA draft is organize give the worst teams a bigger chance to get the better players in the draft, if we keep hoping for the pacers to get a franchise changer or alfa dog in the middle of the draft we are going to be in the middle of the pack for a long time.
good luckI could list a few more, but I have a meeting@WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!Comment
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Re: Pacers' youth movement hasn't stalled/Bruno
It blows my mind that anybody still expects something different. That is not a "news" outlet. Of course it is P.R.-focused.Originally posted by Mark View PostWhy do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
And life itself, rushing over me
Life itself, the wind in black elms,
Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you
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