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Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

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  • #76
    Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

    Originally posted by joeyd View Post
    I'm surprised that so few people voted for interior defense as the problem, and that Foster's injury was not offered as an option. I don't think many people appreciate the value of the offensive rebound and the opportunity for second-chance points. Let's look at some numbers:

    Hibbert has played 1,166 minutes so far this season, and has 106 offensive boards (rate=0.09/minute). Troy Murphy has played 1,217 min so far and has 66 off. rebounds (rate=0.054/min). Foster played 255 min. and had 34 off. rebounds in that time (rate=0.133 min). He was on pace to better last year's totals.

    Granted that Hibbert scores much more than Foster. But what this means is that when Hibbert is out, which is often, either due to a JOB decision or b/c of foul trouble, you get a huge drop-off in offensive boards with TM, although I think the point totals are similar. Now, if Tyler was healthy, you would get the best of all worlds. TH has played 511 min. and had 60 offensive boards, and his scoring if averaged over the full half season would be on par with TM and RH.

    So...I'd say that the lack of JF and TH, both of whom contribute tremendous heart and effort in their minutes played, are the main factors as to why this team has struggled.
    Foster also gets a lot of put-backs off his own missed bunnies.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

      Originally posted by Shade View Post
      Foster also gets a lot of put-backs off his own missed bunnies.
      I think he's gotten better over time, but Foster used to be famous for having a bunch of games where he shot 3-14 with 9 offensive rebounds. You know, the type of performance where all of his offensive rebounds were putback attempts of his own miss... followed by a putback attempt of his own miss... followed by a putback attempt of his own miss... followed by a putback attempt of his own miss...

      For players like Foster that can't hit layups, "Impactive OR's"/ eOR's should be Total ORs less missed-putbacks.

      Yes it is great hustle. But it is also pretty bad basketball.
      Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
      Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
      Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
      Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
      And life itself, rushing over me
      Life itself, the wind in black elms,
      Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

        Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
        If you combine Price with Jack, you'd even be happier.

        Just b/c one has better stats, Calderone, doesn't mean he's the better PG. The Pacers found that out last year, and so has the Raptors this year.

        Oh btw, is Foster worth the 6 mil a year Bird gave him? Want to compare Foster's stats and how many games he's played vs Jack's stats and how many games he's played, not to mention that it would have cost the Pacers less money? How's that 6 mil dollar man contributions helping the Pacers this year sitting out injured, again?
        Just because Foster's deal is terrible, purely on a financial vs productivity standpoint, that does not mean we should have paid Jack big bucks.

        Again, Jack is a decent PG...better than anyone on the Pacers right now. But he simply wasn't good enough to hang onto. Granger is good enough to hang onto. Hibbert and Rush have potential to be better than Jack...so you hang onto them. Jack has limited PG skills and he's topped out because of it....and his ceiling is not that great. He's not anything like losing Mark Jackson or a player with Jamaal Tinsley's talent...guys that could actually play the PG position on a contender.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

          Interior defense is a problem, but it could be improved if the coach would play the better interior denders that are on the roster. Gameplanning could also improve the interior defense some. Injuries have also been a factor, and we don't have the most talented roster in the league either. That said, the talent we have, could be used more effectively. The system used has been a failure, and the player rotations have been too. It does no good to sign a big man to shore up the interior defense and then not use him. Why draft a good post player and then try to run every time down the court and chuck a 3 before he gets to midcourt. I guess the coach and general manager need to get on the same page. THAT is the main problem.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

            Originally posted by NuffSaid View Post
            Where did you get that from my post? I've said no such thing. On the contrary! Allow me to expand on what I meant...

            Had JOB established a firm rotation early on and stuck to it despite injuries to the 1st or 2nd string players, this team might have stood a far better chance of establishing consistency throughout their roster. Instead, what he has done was either shuffle the lineup for matchup purposes or relegate players who could have contribued specifically in the front-court, i.e., McRoberts and SoloJones, to the bench.

            This isn't a "play McRoberts/Soloman Jones" petition. This is me voicing my opinion on how things could have been more favorable for this team had JOB done some things differently instead of insisting on sticking with a small-ball lineup. Players need two things in order to either become or remain positive contributors on any team: development and consistent playing time. McRoberts and SoloJ have received very little of either, yet when they are on the floor they do tend to contribute positively more often than negatively. I just think there was another way JOB could have approached the team's injury issues rather than saying those two players aren't good enough to play support roles to starters like Hibbert (C) or Murphy (SF). Solo (C) and McRoberts (PF) could have filled the voids of Foster (C) and Hansborough (PF) nicely if given the chance on a more consistant basis.
            Cool. I just misread your post. For moment, I thought that you lost your mind.


            Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

              Originally posted by ChicagoJ View Post
              I think he's gotten better over time, but Foster used to be famous for having a bunch of games where he shot 3-14 with 9 offensive rebounds. You know, the type of performance where all of his offensive rebounds were putback attempts of his own miss... followed by a putback attempt of his own miss... followed by a putback attempt of his own miss... followed by a putback attempt of his own miss...

              For players like Foster that can't hit layups, "Impactive OR's"/ eOR's should be Total ORs less missed-putbacks.

              Yes it is great hustle. But it is also pretty bad basketball.
              Hard to say. I looked at the stats for the last couple of years. He hits about 50% of his FG. He usually ranks among the lowest in terms of number of FG attempted for a regular rotation player and sometime starter. Unlike other players, he is very adept at putting back his own missed shots. I think that lately, he is no worse than any of our other players at missing bonehead shots from up close. Let's face it. If you are darn near 7 feet tall and shooting at a 10 foot basket, then assuming that your vertical leap is even only a mere 1 1/2 feet, you should pretty much make every basket. It bothers me when I see us miss a dunk or an easy layup; lack of concentration is usually the culprit here, I'm assuming.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                I haven't read but maybe 5 posts in this thread, all I saw was a lot of talk about Jack. I didn't think we'd miss him. I didn't appreciate him much when he was here, but this team sure misses him. He was exactly what this team needs at PG in J'OB's system. He's a point guard that can shoot, and even if he doesn't have much in the way of traditional PG skills ... this offense doesn't require that. So it was a good fit. While I'm not sold on AJ Price's shooting at this point, he certainly is better than Ford at it, and also doesn't dominate the ball. Meaning he looks better than Ford in this offense. I'm very curious what AJ will look like in a different offense. He shows flashes of being a good PG in the traditional sense at times. We won't see much more than that until JOB is gone however.

                That said, I think this team without JOB coaching would top out at 35-40 wins with good coaching. There just isn't much talent on this team. Summer of 2011 can't get here fast enough ....

                -- Steve --

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                  Originally posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
                  I haven't read but maybe 5 posts in this thread, all I saw was a lot of talk about Jack. I didn't think we'd miss him. I didn't appreciate him much when he was here, but this team sure misses him. He was exactly what this team needs at PG in J'OB's system. He's a point guard that can shoot, and even if he doesn't have much in the way of traditional PG skills ... this offense doesn't require that. So it was a good fit. While I'm not sold on AJ Price's shooting at this point, he certainly is better than Ford at it, and also doesn't dominate the ball. Meaning he looks better than Ford in this offense. I'm very curious what AJ will look like in a different offense. He shows flashes of being a good PG in the traditional sense at times. We won't see much more than that until JOB is gone however.

                  That said, I think this team without JOB coaching would top out at 35-40 wins with good coaching. There just isn't much talent on this team. Summer of 2011 can't get here fast enough ....

                  -- Steve --
                  The talent is there. JOB's poor coaching is what making it seem like that Indiana "don't have enough talent". Until I see Indiana performing poorly under another coach, I'll never believe that Indiana "don't have enough talent".


                  Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                    Originally posted by joeyd View Post
                    Hard to say. I looked at the stats for the last couple of years. He hits about 50% of his FG. He usually ranks among the lowest in terms of number of FG attempted for a regular rotation player and sometime starter. Unlike other players, he is very adept at putting back his own missed shots. I think that lately, he is no worse than any of our other players at missing bonehead shots from up close. Let's face it. If you are darn near 7 feet tall and shooting at a 10 foot basket, then assuming that your vertical leap is even only a mere 1 1/2 feet, you should pretty much make every basket. It bothers me when I see us miss a dunk or an easy layup; lack of concentration is usually the culprit here, I'm assuming.
                    Stats won't help you with this. The play-by-play log or just watching the old games will help.

                    He had an 12-OR game about four years ago in which six or seven of the ORs came in a single - God awful - sequence. Bill Walton would have left the table and killed him in the name of fundamentals if he were announcing that game.

                    If you can find the play-by-play log of this game you'll see what I'm talking about:

                    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...612020DEN.html

                    This game was exaggerated because he was comically bad. But in that era, he had a number of games similar to this. I think his ability to hit putbacks has increased, and it was no surprise to me that his ORs went down a bit when he stopped padding that stat with his own misses.
                    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                    And life itself, rushing over me
                    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                      Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                      Just because Foster's deal is terrible, purely on a financial vs productivity standpoint, that does not mean we should have paid Jack big bucks.

                      Again, Jack is a decent PG...better than anyone on the Pacers right now. But he simply wasn't good enough to hang onto. Granger is good enough to hang onto. Hibbert and Rush have potential to be better than Jack...so you hang onto them. Jack has limited PG skills and he's topped out because of it....and his ceiling is not that great. He's not anything like losing Mark Jackson or a player with Jamaal Tinsley's talent...guys that could actually play the PG position on a contender.

                      Big bucks?? Since when is 4.5 mil big bucks for a starting PG for this year? 15-16 mil for PG's this year that are no longer a Pacer and 4th Pg bench sitter on the bench is big bucks wasted!!

                      Jack's ceiling isn't the point, it's what he brought that is! He brings the things that don't show up in the box scores, and that's what made him so valuable. The things this team is so lacking this year.

                      It's so funny how all the Foster apologists talk about how great Foster's intangibles are, and Bird paid more for those intangibles. That worked out so well this season and probably next season too that Bird should give Foster another extension next year. (This paragrapgh in GREEN!)

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                        Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
                        The talent is there. JOB's poor coaching is what making it seem like that Indiana "don't have enough talent". Until I see Indiana performing poorly under another coach, I'll never believe that Indiana "don't have enough talent".
                        The talent is there for maybe a 38 win team if everything goes about as well as possible, sure.

                        Also, in the 2004-2005 season, the 76ers won 43 games with JOB as coach (his only year there). The 76ers haven't won that many games since, so I guess finding a coach who is easily better than JOB isn't as easy as some people think. Either that or some people don't want to believe that season actually happened, or the season where a JOB coached team made it to the conference finals. The way some people make it sound, the Celtics would have beaten the Shaq-Kobe Lakers if someone else other than JOB was coach.
                        Last edited by d_c; 02-05-2010, 01:50 PM.

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                        • #87
                          Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                          Originally posted by d_c View Post
                          The talent is there for maybe a 38 win team if everything goes about as well as possible, sure.

                          Also, in the 2004-2005 season, the 76ers won 43 games with JOB as coach (his only year there). The 76ers haven't won that many games since, so I guess finding a coach who is easily better than JOB isn't as easy as some people think. Either that or some people don't want to believe that season actually happened, or the season where a JOB coached team made it to the conference finals. The way some people make it sound, the Celtics would have beaten the Shaq-Kobe Lakers if someone else other than JOB was coach.
                          Your point? JOB is in his 3rd year with Indiana and is doing WORSE with a losing philosophy.


                          Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                            Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
                            Your point? JOB is in his 3rd year with Indiana and is doing WORSE with a losing philosophy.
                            My point is it's foolish to think that getting rid of JOB is automatically going to result in a bunch of rainbows coming out and flowers sprouting out of the ground. Anybody who thinks that's going to happen is delusional and is putting the cart before the horse. This league is about players and talent far more than it is about coaches and systems.

                            Teams that have ridded themselves of JOB went on to do worse than with him, not better. That is a fact that some people don't seem to want to believe. It never happened. Couldn't have happened. Oh, but it did.

                            Happy days didn't just all of a sudden come along as soon as he left town, as lot of people would like to believe would happen. Boston never did better after JOB left until they added 2 veteran all-stars.

                            Edit: Most people believe in Bird's 3 way plan, but they don't believe in his choice of coach. Well, that coach is part of the 3 year plan, folks. And Bird stands behind it. The 3 year plan revolves around getting new players in 2011. The coach is far less of a big deal. It could be a different coach, and probably will be, but point is that Bird is A LOT MORE concerned about the players comprising the roster than who happens to be coaching it. Bird's plan revolves around changing the players. If you don't realize that, then you completely misinterpret what Bird's 3 year plan actually is.
                            Last edited by d_c; 02-05-2010, 03:25 PM.

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                            • #89
                              Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                              This team is probably bottom-five in talent and bottom-ten in coaching.

                              Both need to improve. No doubt about it.

                              The talent can improve because young guys like Rush, Hibbert, Tyler and Price can grow into being better players than they are now.

                              But a top-ten coach with this roster is not going to get them to 0.500. Unless, of course, he gets Rush and Hibbert way ahead of schedule. But in the short term, there will still be losses as they figure out how to contribute consistently. (And that's a typical challenge for a second-year player.)
                              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                              And life itself, rushing over me
                              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

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                              • #90
                                Re: Whats been the Pacers biggest contributor to a losing season so far?

                                Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
                                Cool. I just misread your post. For moment, I thought that you lost your mind.
                                No...I'm very much sane, my friend. A bit tic'd off at our team's injury situation and some of the boneheaded coaching decisions that have gone down, but very much still sane.

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