Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

[Dr. Goldfoot]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

Players out of position on offense and defense is something that's been happening all year but now we're seeing sloppy play too. Clark Kellogg & Slick both went out of their way last night to point out MDJ was guarding the fast break poorly on at least two occasions. The play where Price threw the ball out of bounds JOB immediately yelled "What the hell are you doing?" to someone else down court after that play. Someone was supposed to be there, not that it absolves A.J. from throwing the ball to the front row. There was a play earlier in the game where Danny & Troy were just a few feet apart and Danny made a vee cut to the hoop. Troy threw it too soon and the ball went out of bounds behind Danny. Another play where Rush left his man to stop dribble penetration and nobody ( Troy & Roy) bothered to clog the lane behind him and instead just watched the penetrater pass down to Rush's man for the lay in.

These are the kind of plays you'd expect to see in a PD pickup game. Pro ballplayers should never make these kind of gaffs especially half way into a season and when the guys generally screwing up have been playing together for a couple of years (and in some cases longer).

[Unclebuck]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

My bad, I thought Carsyle was here for 3.

Buck, do you remeber Bird saying something like the players tune out the coach after the 3rd year?

By the way though big difference between obie and RC , RC actually won games and showed promise

Yeah Bird has said it several times - it is in his book

[90'sNBARocked]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

Rick was here for 4 years and he was given an extension and title and then was fired after the 4th season. So actually what Bird is doing with JOB is very, very similar to what Bird did with Carlisle. Most fans thought Rick had lost the team after 3 years, but Larry kept him another year because and I think Bird said as much that Rick had to put up with so much: brawl, injuries, off the court.....

Bird gave JOB an extension after the second year I think so he wouldn't be a lameduck.

Everyone just needs to relax a little bit if the season ended right now, I wouldn't expect Bird to retain O'Brien - reason I say right now is unless something significant changes with the team I don't expect Jim to be back next season

My bad, I thought Carsyle was here for 3.

Buck, do you remeber Bird saying something like the players tune out the coach after the 3rd year?

By the way though big difference between obie and RC , RC actually won games and showed promise

[Unclebuck]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

I think Obie has clearly lost the team. I also think Bird is being a little hypocritical. He fires Rick Carslyle after three years (and a hell of a job with a winning record)because "Players tune out the coach after 3 years" yet he gives Obie (whos record has been below average each year) an extension after his 3rd year

Rick was here for 4 years and he was given an extension and title after the 3rd season (I believe). and then was fired after the 4th season. So actually what Bird is doing with JOB is very, very similar to what Bird did with Carlisle. Most fans thought Rick had lost the team after 3 years, but Larry kept him another year because and I think Bird said as much that Rick had to put up with so much: brawl, injuries, off the court.....

Bird gave JOB an extension after the second year I think so he wouldn't be a lameduck.

Everyone just needs to relax a little bit if the season ended right now, I wouldn't expect Bird to retain O'Brien - reason I say right now is unless something significant changes with the team I don't expect Jim to be back next season

[Sookie]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

First of all I would have highlighted the part done above, after removal of TJ one would think that few of those players were left.
Since it is Granger saying it, I am pretty sure he is not thinking of himself, and we can exclude Hibbert and Rush as well I think, that leaves precious few players (in the starting line and on the bench)

With Head and Watson as unlikely candidates as well, that leaves hmm let me see, Tyler, Dantay, Solo and Murphy.

Shall I leave it to the reader what to make of that ??

Or he's including himself.

It's hard to play this way. Because a shot is supposed to go up fast, but at the same time..how do you play a team game when that happens?

[90'sNBARocked]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

What I can't understand is what is the big change from last year? This current team has no resemblence to last years.

Last Year every game was exciting. Win or lose we were in it to the end. I am convinced that Daniels, Rasho and Jack are NOT the main reason.

I think Obie has clearly lost the team. I also think Bird is being a little hypocritical. He fires Rick Carslyle after three years (and a hell of a job with a winning record)because "Players tune out the coach after 3 years" yet he gives Obie (whos record has been below average each year) an extension after his 3rd year

This is making me physically ill. I can not find (at current time) one single positive thing about this team.

The worst is the games now suck, and its painful to watch a team that looks as disinterested as this one.

[bellisimo]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

if players are being selfish or don't know where they are...then they are just not giving a damn about the system...and if players don't care about the system - it pretty much makes it sound like they tuned out the coach...

[Speed]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

Losing team grumbling about losing, that's my take away. Sad that it's turning into finger pointing. I'm pretty sure most of these guys won't be around in two years, so I'm not too worried about it.

[CableKC]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

First of all I would have highlighted the part done above, after removal of TJ one would think that few of those players were left.
Since it is Granger saying it, I am pretty sure he is not thinking of himself, and we can exclude Hibbert and Rush as well I think, that leaves precious few players (in the starting line and on the bench)

With Head and Watson as unlikely candidates as well, that leaves hmm let me see, Tyler, Dantay, Solo and Murphy.

Shall I leave it to the reader what to make of that ??

To be fair......of course Granger isn't going to think of himself as being selfish. But to everyone else....who I'd guess ( in some way ) think the same way, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the Team thought the same of Granger himself. How many times have we seen the 5 Players on the floor moving, cutting, setting screens....and then all of a sudden, Granger get the ball and all that movement stops and everyone stands and wait for him to shoot the ball?

The most logical choices of who'd likely be considered "selfish" on the offensive end would be Granger, Murphy and Inferno. I wouldn't be surprised if Granger was referring to Inferno....cuz we have seen them bicker on the floor...on top of that...we have seen that JO'B and the rest of the Team has been p*ssed off at him for not looking to make that extra pass. But I wouldn't be surprised ( as well ) if the rest of the Team sees Granger as equally selfish on the offensive end.

[Unclebuck]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

I agree that it is a problem. It often seems as if these guys just met each other when they got to the arena.

However, I also think that Dunleavy is playing horribly right now. Part of that is due to what other guys are doing (or not doing right), but a lot of that is on him. My basic point is that he's a part of the problem, (at times, a very large part of the problem).

Sure he's part of the problem he isn't playing well, but I don't think his problem is not knowing where he needs to be offensively or defensively.

[count55]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

That maybe be true. But I also believe and trust Mike 100% on this issue which he is commenting on. Should he make it public (although he didn't name any names, but by not naming names he leaves everyone open for scrutiny) no, but I believe Mike 100% if he says it is a problem I will take his word on that 100%

I agree that it is a problem. It often seems as if these guys just met each other when they got to the arena.

However, I also think that Dunleavy is playing horribly right now. Part of that is due to what other guys are doing (or not doing right), but a lot of that is on him. My basic point is that he's a part of the problem, (at times, a very large part of the problem).

[count55]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

If it was a single specific player you would think things would get better when that player sat down.

I don't think one guy is screwing everything up, I think everyone is off the mark a little bit but in such different directions that it leaves a gaping hole.

Sorry, UB, but this part I kind of have to lay at JOB's feet. Not because of his substitution patterns or love for a particular player, but because the way to fix this is with a large palette of set plays that get everyone on the floor going in the same direction. If everyone is doing read-and-react then it is urgent everyone is on the same page - since they are not, they can't get coherent.

It isn't because they mean to be selfish or dislike each other or even that there's some kind of locker room issue. It is that they aren't thinking the same way on the floor, which is vital for a free-flow offense.

What I then think happens is that bad offense leads to desperation on defense, where it is also easy to knock guys off their timing because they aren't focusing on defending, they are focusing on what they have to do to get a score next time.

I think this is all valid, and I think more set plays could settle things down, offensively, for a short while. However, I don't think it's a long term solution (nor am I sure that there is a long term solution with this roster.)

[Unclebuck]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

Sorry, UB, but this part I kind of have to lay at JOB's feet. Not because of his substitution patterns or love for a particular player, but because the way to fix this is with a large palette of set plays that get everyone on the floor going in the same direction. If everyone is doing read-and-react then it is urgent everyone is on the same page - since they are not, they can't get coherent.

No problem, I didn't intend to try and keep O'Brien out of the discussion entirely, just didn't want the thread to turn into everything is JOB's fault. I'm more than willing to accept that the coaching staff deserves some blame as well

[kellogg]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

First of all I would have highlighted the part done above, after removal of TJ one would think that few of those players were left.
Since it is Granger saying it, I am pretty sure he is not thinking of himself, and we can exclude Hibbert and Rush as well I think, that leaves precious few players (in the starting line and on the bench)

With Head and Watson as unlikely candidates as well, that leaves hmm let me see, Tyler, Dantay, Solo and Murphy.

Shall I leave it to the reader what to make of that ??

Can't be Ty or Solo...they don't play enough minutes to impact squat. TJ is in the doghouse.

[Brad8888]

Re: Dunleavy: players don't know where they are supposed to be

Danny sure seems to be supporting O'B, which is good as the leader of the team, and it is also good that he is being vocal about it.

Dunleavy's statement is layered, and with a purpose. It seems that he is saying that there is a lack of effort, which is obvious to even casual observers. But, he is also saying something very seperate from that as well, which could reflect poorly on both some of the players basketball IQ as well as the ability of the coaching staff to communicate and teach what it is that they are trying to implement with yet another roster.

Yes, the players have a difficult time with knowing where they are supposed to be. That changes every single time the lineup changes. Without full understanding of a system that they have never seen successfully implemented anywhere in professional basketball, and no template to follow, it would probably be mind boggling to make adjustments to as many lineup changes as have been required for either injury, chemistry, or performance issues while still trying to understand what it is, exactly, that O'B wants from them. Dunleavy being singled out by O'B as a genius previously probably shows that he is one of the players who does understand what O'B wants, but he probably also realizes, and is frustrated by, the fact that there continues to be issues that most teams are able to use training camp and preseason, and sometimes the early part of the regular season, to get squared away.

Players are then left hanging and look bad, and very likely are dressed down by the coaching staff for not following the plan when, in their heart of hearts, they believe that they (as individuals) in fact are not only following the plan (whether they are or not), but are also doing what they can to make up for the deficiencies of other players not following the system. That would have to be extremely upsetting.

So, do we continue to shake up the roster with trades before the deadline and then watch the rest of the season while we bull ahead on a foundation built on the "quick"sand of the 3 based offense that comes apart regularly due to fatigue and lack of effort, or do we get to the heart of the matter and begin to make the long term change required for the health of the franchise in the long term based on fundamental basketball with sustainable paced offense and a focus on defense predicated on keeping yourself between your man and the basket with weakside help as required, and then see what players can and cannot follow such a basic plan, and once isolated, trade them as opportunities arise with an eye toward assembling a team that can do so?

My guess is that we will keep O'B, and try, yet fail, to make trades that do anything but accept salary dumps from other franchises that provide us with name players with additional bloated contracts that mesh OK with the gap that we have in place in future years, with the thinking being that names that are second tier yet recognizable players will attract casual fan interest and get people to come to Conseco between now and April, when the deadline for negotiations with the CIB for a major portion our financial future concludes.