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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

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  • #1

    So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

    A few factoids on the lottery:

    This, you pretty much already know, but here are the odds by team and draft position for tonight's lottery:

    Exhibit: Odds by Draft Position


    The History - The first lottery was held in 1985 among the 7 teams that did not make the playoffs. Each team had one chance in 7 of being the #1 pick, and the winner of that first lottery was, famously, the New York Knicks, who selected Patrick Ewing. All 7 positions were drawn for ranking.

    The same procedure was followed in 1986, but some complaints arose about inequities. In 1985, Indiana and Golden State had finished tied for the worst record in the league. The Pacers picked 2nd, but Golden State picked 7th. In 1986, the Knicks posted the league's worst record but did not pick until 5th.

    In 1987, the league changed to picking only the top three, thus guaranteeing for the first time that the team with the worst record would pick no worse than 4th. However, each team still had an equal chance at the top three. The team with the worst record still finished out of the money in two of the three years under this system.

    In 1990, the league began weighting the chances of teams (while still picking only the top three), with the worst record of the then-11 lottery teams getting 11 lottery balls and the best record getting just one. Therefore, the team with the worst record had a one in six chance, while the team with the best record had a 1 in 66 chance.

    This lasted until 1993, when Orlando scored their second straight #1 pick despite having only one ping pong ball in the hopper. Eyebrows were raised as the league's newest superstar, Shaquille O'Neal, was the beneficiary of a lottery day miracle. The following year, the league moved to the current system using 1000 combinations. The worst record now has a 1 in 4 chance of picking #1, while the best record's chances have dropped to 1 in 200.

    The Results - There have been 15 lotteries conducted under more or less the current system (with expansion increasing the number of teams in 1995 and 2005).

    The number one pick has gone to the worst record only twice during that time: 2003 (James to Cleveland) and 2004 (Howard to Orlando). Including those two teams, it has gone to "bottom three" teams eight times, or about 53% of the time. The team with the longest odds to win it was Chicago last year, who had a 1 in 59 shot (still better odds than the Orlando win in 1993). Prior to that, New Jersey's 2000 win was the longest shot at about 1 in 23.

    The "bottom three" have ended up with the top three picks (in any order) only once, in 1996. The 2007 draft was the only draft in which none of the "bottom three" were drawn for the top three picks.

    The Pacers have been in the lottery three times under this system: 1997, 2007, and 2008. There name was not drawn on any of those occasions. They used the 12th pick in 1997 to select Austin Croshere. The 11th pick in 2007 was used by Atlanta, who selected Acie Law, to complete the Al Harrington trade. The 11th pick in 2008 was used to select Jerryd Bayless, who was then traded along with Ike Diogu to Portland for Brandon Rush (the #13 pick), Jarrett Jack, and Josh McRoberts.

    The Odds (and Ends)

    If your team has the worst record, they are most likely to pick 4th. (While the team with the worst record has the best odds at getting #1, it is only a 25% chance, while the chances of them picking 4th (worst case scenario) is actually 36%.

    It does not become more likely than not that your record rank will be the same as your draft position until 7th, when it is a 60% chance that the 7th worst record will pick 7th. This is also the rank where it becomes your most likely draft position.

    It is more likely that you will draft worse than your position than better up until the 12th pick. Good news for the Pacers because it is more likely that they will pick in the top three (1 in 45) than 14th (1 in 55). (However, they still have a 24 in 25 chance of picking 13th.)

    The odds of the bottom three records getting the top three picks, in any order, are about 1 in 6, while the odds of none of them getting the top three are about 1 in 570.

    Edit - The section between the quotes has bad math

    The odds of the draft order going in exactly the order listed in the Exhibit above are about 1 in 51,000. In a generic year, with no ties, it gets a little higher at about 1 in 49,000.

    Reverse order according to record is not the most likely order. In fact, the most likely order for this year's draft is:

    Washington
    LA Clippers
    Minnesota
    Sacramento
    Oklahoma City
    Memphis
    Golden State
    New York
    Toronto
    Milwaukee
    New Jersey
    Charlotte
    Indiana
    Phoenix

    At about 1 in 26,000 chances. In a generic year (no ties), the most likely order is (records, worst to best):

    2, 3, 5, 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

    I didn't go back very far, and these numbers are just a little (tiny bit) off, but the odds for the orders from the last four drafts:

    2004 - 1 in 74,000
    2005 - 1 in 139,000
    2006 - 1 in 5.6 million (none of the bottom three in the top three)
    2007 - 1 in 5.3 million (Chicago nabbing the #1)
    So, there are two morals to this story:

    1. Whatever you think will happen tonight, odds are, it won't.

    2. I really shouldn't be allowed access to the internet and Excel/Access at the same time.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by count55; 05-19-2009, 05:13 PM. Reason: I hate probabilities and permutations. (or is it or?)
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

    One little tiny nit-pick. When using the "1 in XXX" method, it's is preferred to use the term "chances".

    If the chances are 1 in 10, the odds would be 1:9.

    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

      Count when I learned Access freshman year of college I always wondered when I would need to use it. Now I know.


      Comment

      • #4
        Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

        Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
        One little tiny nit-pick. When using the "1 in XXX" method, it's is preferred to use the term "chances".

        If the chances are 1 in 10, the odds would be 1:9.

        Hmmm...I even switched in mid-post...

        What are ****ing odds of that?

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

          Holy crap. I had no idea how crazily some of this stuff was weighted. That was awesome.
          You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

            Originally posted by count55 View Post
            Hmmm...I even switched in mid-post...

            What are ****ing odds of that?
            Even money.
            “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

            “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

              I made this argument on RealGM. I know that Stern doesn't rig the lottery, but if he did we would be a prime candidate to give a top 3 pick to.

              Right now we are in financial trouble. Well, we aren't a free agent signing team, so obviously the thing that would generate the most buzz and possible ticket sales here in Indy is to have the Pacers end up with a top 3 prospect.

              That would sell a lot of tickets considering we haven't had a top 3 pick in what 20 years?...

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                So what you're saying is that there is a chance...

                2.2% - Nice

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                  Originally posted by count55 View Post
                  Hmmm...I even switched in mid-post...

                  What are ****ing odds of that?
                  "One in a million chances crop up nine times out of ten." - Terry Pratchett
                  BillS

                  A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                  Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                    Originally posted by rexnom View Post
                    So what you're saying is that there is a chance...

                    2.2% - Nice


                    This town would go nuts if luck went our way tonight.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                      Originally posted by BillS View Post
                      "One in a million chances crop up nine times out of ten." - Terry Pratchett
                      Well...

                      Originally posted by Tom Stoppard
                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Bet?

                      Heads I win.

                      Again...

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Heads.

                      Whoops!

                      It must be indicative of something
                      besides the redistribution of wealth.

                      Heads.

                      A weaker man might be moved
                      to re-examine his faith,

                      for nothing else at least
                      in the law of probability...

                      Heads.

                      Consider.

                      One,

                      probability is a factor which
                      operates within natural forces.

                      Two, probability is not
                      operating as a factor.

                      Three, we are now held within um...

                      sub or supernatural forces.

                      Discuss!
                      What?

                      Look at it this way.
                      If six monkeys...

                      If six monkeys...

                      The law of averages,
                      if I have got this right means...

                      that if six monkeys were thrown
                      up in the air long enough...

                      they would land on their tails
                      about as often as they would
                      land on their...

                      Heads, getting a bit of
                      a bore, isn't it?

                      A bore?
                      Well...

                      What about the suspense?

                      What suspense?

                      It must be the law
                      of diminishing returns.

                      I still spell about to be broken.

                      Well, it was an even chance.

                      Seventy eight in a row.
                      A new record, I imagine.

                      Is that what you imagine?
                      A new record?

                      No questions?
                      Not a flicker of doubt?

                      I could be wrong.

                      No fear?
                      Fear?

                      Fear!

                      Seventy nine.

                      I think I have it.
                      Time has stopped dead.

                      The single experience of one coin
                      being spun once has been repeated.

                      A hundred and fifty six times.

                      On the whole, doubtful.

                      Or, a spectacular vindication
                      of the principle.

                      That each individual
                      coin spun individually is...

                      as likely to come down
                      heads as tails

                      and therefore should cause no
                      surprise each individual time it does.

                      Heads...
                      I've never known anything like it.

                      He has never known
                      anything like it.

                      But he has never known
                      anything to write home about.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                        I would love if I turned on the tube tonight and saw Buster Douglas representing the Pacers.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                          Wait, so the draft lottery is tonight? Man, I'm really slipping. I thought it was the 24th or something.

                          Checks online.... Yep it's tonight. Cool. Here's hoping the Pacers finally get the number one pick.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                            Originally posted by count55 View Post

                            At about 1 in 26,000 chances. In a generic year (no ties), the most likely order is (records, worst to best):

                            2, 3, 5, 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

                            How does that work out? I'm no statistics expert, but the way I see it:

                            %chance of 1, 2, 3:

                            250 / 1000 * 178 / (1000 - 250) * 177 / (1000-250-178) * 100 = 1.836%

                            %chance of 2, 3, 5:

                            178 / 1000 * 177 / (1000 - 178) * 76 / (1000 - 178 - 177) * 100 = 0.452%

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: So, What does a Draft Pick Get Ya? (Sidebar # 2 - Ping Pong Balls)

                              I think a lot of you are going to be horribly disappointed this evening.

                              Comment

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