IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

[count55]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems a few of you don't understand what Benner meant when he said what he did about race. Though it's a lot deeper to me than I care to explain (UB already touched on it a bit), I'll say this much.

I hate the word "thug" and the way its used to describe black NBA players that find themselves in a bad position with the law. I call Rae Carruth a thug. That's because he actually did something that the true definition of a thug does. He killed.

Thug: 1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.

Yet I only hear the word referenced to black players, and recently black people. I take offense to it because it's being used like it's the new 'N' word, not for it's true meaning. Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, Marquis Daniels, and recently Shawne Williams have all been called thugs. Going by the words definition I don't see them as thugs. Lacking judgement, hard headed, troublesome, idiot, etc. ok, that's a good definition of them. But thug is definitely not.

Funny part is that when I was younger, a "thug" in terms of basketball was an enforcer/dirty player. It was interchangable with "goon" or "hack". Rick Mahorn was a thug. Maurice Lucas. Jeff Ruland. Bill Laimbeer.

Now, however, there's a new, nastier connotation, and I do agree with those who say it has racial undertones. I think it's a broad brush that gets used too easily these days.

[Wu-Gambino]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems to me these things help make the case FOR Indianapolis being a good sports town.

For hosting big sporting events and conventions, definitely. But when it comes to actual fan support, that's a whole different story.

[grace]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems a few of you don't understand what Benner meant when he said what he did about race. Though it's a lot deeper to me than I care to explain (UB already touched on it a bit), I'll say this much.

I hate the word "thug" and the way its used to describe black NBA players that find themselves in a bad position with the law. I call Rae Carruth a thug. That's because he actually did something that the true definition of a thug does. He killed.

Thug: 1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.

Well, I guess I could say "those *** holes who keep getting in trouble with the law." It's just easier to say "thug" (plus thug makes it through the bad word filter). It's not my fault those who keep getting in trouble happen to be African-American.

[Noodle]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Everybody needs some sunshine.

[BlueNGold]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Some people think it's the losing. Some think it's the incidents.

The truth is, it's both.

You have to ask why the Pacers are LAST in the NBA in attendance when they are not the smallest market and not even close to the worst record.

Some conveniently explain this away by stereotyping Indiana fans as being some monolithic mass that can be characterized as fickle fans. That's grasping a false conclusion to avoid the truth.

Again, the truth is, it's both. Why isn't the same being said of other cities? What about Memphis? How in the world is their attendance significantly higher than the Pacers?

The truth is, sharing the Pacers with a friend is like sharing a disease. Sharing the Pacers with a client is equivalent to losing your client. Sharing the Pacers with your children is child abuse. At least, that's the reputation...and it does matter to *SOME* people....both when they decide to spend their entertainment dollars...and when they decide to buy merchandise.

Now, losing probably still accounts for 70-80% of the attendance drop....but that extra 20-30% is worth a solid 1000 fans...which would make all the difference in the world.........

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/attendance

ESPN NBA ATTENDANCE 2007-08

[Evan_The_Dude]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Well, I guess I could say "those *** holes who keep getting in trouble with the law." It's just easier to say "thug" (plus thug makes it through the bad word filter). It's not my fault those who keep getting in troulbe happen to be African-American.

Did anyone call Chris Andersen a thug? Jason Williams? What about what Darko Milicic said in the summer olympics about the ref in one of the games he played in. Did anyone call him a thug after that? You're right that it's the African-Americans are the main ones getting in trouble, and in a mostly African-American league odds are that if you have a bunch of people getting in trouble that you'd have to look in the African-American direction. That's not a good thing, but it's the truth and I'm fine with that truth. The only thing that bothers me is the word that's being used to describe those players.

I remember back the year of the brawl when we were playing the Orlando Magic on TNT a week or so after the brawl. During halftime, Charles Barkley brought up the exact use of the word I'm talking about now and how it has some racial undertones. Kenny Smith kept nodding their heads agreeing with Charles. Maybe it's an argument only black people can really understand.

[McKeyFan]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Funny part is that when I was younger, a "thug" in terms of basketball was an enforcer/dirty player. It was interchangable with "goon" or "hack". Rick Mahorn was a thug. Maurice Lucas. Jeff Ruland. Bill Laimbeer.

I resent you calling all these black guys thugs. That's racist. I resent all those people that call Danny Granger a thug, and David Robinson, and James Jones--man, all the people that so unfairly called him a thug for carrying around a bible all the time.

And that Jason Williams kid down in Miami. It's racist to call him a thug.

Just cut out all the racism, you guys. It's just not right!

[BlueNGold]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

It seems a few of you don't understand what Benner meant when he said what he did about race. Though it's a lot deeper to me than I care to explain (UB already touched on it a bit), I'll say this much.

I hate the word "thug" and the way its used to describe black NBA players that find themselves in a bad position with the law. I call Rae Carruth a thug. That's because he actually did something that the true definition of a thug does. He killed.

Thug: 1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.

Yet I only hear the word referenced to black players, and recently black people. I take offense to it because it's being used like it's the new 'N' word, not for it's true meaning. Ron Artest, Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, Marquis Daniels, and recently Shawne Williams have all been called thugs. Going by the words definition I don't see them as thugs. Lacking judgement, hard headed, troublesome, idiot, etc. ok, that's a good definition of them. But thug is definitely not.

I think most people are using the term as a synonym for "criminal".

Personally, I simply don't make a connection with race at all. I may have used the term before, but it's not commonly used in my arsenal of slams. Now, I do think that the term "gangsta" has racial connotations....

BTW, most words have multiple definitions. Here is another one:

Thug: an aggressive and violent young criminal [syn: hood]

IMO, regardless of the term, that definition applies to some of our players based on their own actions. For example, Jackson fits that definition at Club Rio. Tinsley is facing an felony intimidation charge. Both guys are fairly young and facing criminal charges involving aggression/violence. So, thug is a perfect definition here and it could just be that people are using this definition.

BTW, how do you explain the poster who loves Granger or Reggie and calls Jackson and Tinsley thugs? Is he a racist? Or is he sick of off court incidents? Seriously, I doubt people are using the term the way you think they are. In any event, I will refrain from using that word here just to be civil.

[Hoop]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

I agree wholeheartedly with both the author of this article and Naptown Seth.

Me Too!

[BlueNGold]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

Did anyone call Chris Andersen a thug? Jason Williams? What about what Darko Milicic said in the summer olympics about the ref in one of the games he played in. Did anyone call him a thug after that? You're right that it's the African-Americans are the main ones getting in trouble, and in a mostly African-American league odds are that if you have a bunch of people getting in trouble that you'd have to look in the African-American direction. That's not a good thing, but it's the truth and I'm fine with that truth. The only thing that bothers me is the word that's being used to describe those players.

I remember back the year of the brawl when we were playing the Orlando Magic on TNT a week or so after the brawl. During halftime, Charles Barkley brought up the exact use of the word I'm talking about now and how it has some racial undertones. Kenny Smith kept nodding their heads agreeing with Charles. Maybe it's an argument only black people can really understand.

Chris Anderson seems like he deserves the label...but did he do anything violent. I think the term connotes violence along with illegality. In any event, he deserves to be called a criminal...

[count55]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

As long as we're getting technical on "thug":

thug
1810, "member of a gang of murderers and robbers in India who strangled their victims," from Marathi thag, thak "cheat, swindler," Hindi thag, perhaps from Skt. sthaga-s "cunning, fraudulent," possibly from sthagayati "(he) covers, conceals," from PIE base *(s)teg- "cover" (see stegosaurus). Transferred sense of "ruffian, cutthroat" first recorded 1839. The more correct Indian name is phanseegur, and the activity was described in Eng. as far back as c.1665. Rigorously prosecuted by the British from 1831, they were driven from existence, but the process extended over the rest of the 19c.

Online Etymology Dictionary

But that's not really the point I was trying to make. I was simply observing that the contextual perception of the word "thug" has changed in the last 20-30 years to have more racial connotations.

People are staying away from Pacer games for a million reasons. Race and racism could be a factor for some, but odds are those people were staying away even at the peak of their popularity.

I think, on the whole, Indianapolis is a good sports town, but not a good PROFESSIONAL sports town. Many of the professional sports fans here follow both the Colts and the Pacer, and many have to choose one over the other. Let's face it. These days it's easier to pick the Colts. However, let's not forget just a few scant years ago, it seemed like everyone had the Colts bundled off to LA. It sure seemed like the league wanted it that way.

We will never be like Chicago, who is second in attendance this year despite being a scant 1 game ahead of us. Who was third in attendance in 2003-2004, averaging over 3,000 more fans per game with 23 wins than we did while winning 61.

Some of it's demographics, some of it's culture, some of it's just plain population totals (both citizenry and corporate). On the whole, it's a limitation, but not one that would not allow both the Pacers and Colts to be solidly successful here, if the product is good.

The problem I have with Benner on this article is that he decided to wag his finger at everybody. Rather than saying "Hey, I get why you're frustrated, but here are the reasons we still need to turn out and support the Pacers", he decided to try and push people's buttons by playing the "real sports town" card.

[Evan_The_Dude]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

BTW, how do you explain the poster who loves Granger or Reggie and calls Jackson and Tinsley thugs? Is he a racist? Or is he sick of off court incidents? Seriously, I doubt people are using the term the way you think they are. In any event, I will refrain from using that word here just to be civil.

I don't want to come across as if I'm pulling the card and calling people racists. I'm not doing that, I'm not the card pulling type. I'm just saying the word thug itself has a racial undertone, and it sort of reminds me of the 'N' word because it's beginning to be used in a similar form (not always by the people on this board).

[Smoothdave1]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

I think the issue comes down to the fact that Indy will never embrace a team whose players are constantly in the news for off-court issues. Look at Indy and the past 20 years whom have fans embraced? Peyton Manning, Reggie Miller, Jim Harbaugh, Marshall Faulk, the Davis boys, Rik Smits, Dwight Freeney, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, etc. How many incidents have you heard of regarding any of these guys and their behaviors off the court or field while they were with Indy? Sure, there have been some minor incidents, but nothing like those of the Pacers.

When the Colts had issues with players, in many cases, those players were left looking for work shortly thereafter (i.e. Steve Muhammad). Sure, I realize that you're able to cut players easily in the NFL vs the NBA, but the Colts never let any character issues get out of hand like the Pacers have.

It's not a race issue at all. Indy supported and embraced guys like Edgerrin James with his gold teeth and dreadlocks who couldn't wait to get to Miami every year and also guys like Rik Smits who was a somewhat goofy European. Reggie Miller was loved from Fort Wayne to Evansville and everywhere in between, so it's not a race issue. If Mike Dunleavy were getting high with Harrison and arrested for DUI's or drugs, the fans would dislike him as much as Tinsley.

Fans in Indy simply do not like and will not tolerate a Jamaal Tinsley, Stephen Jackson, Ron Artest, and even guys like Daniels, Williams and Harrison to an extent. These guys weren't just in the news once, but on multiple occasions. There's a point where the fans throw their hands up and say that's enough and have stopped coming to games. There's a reason why Jax was traded, why Harrison and Williams have put their houses up for sale and the fans who pay their hard earned money are tired of supporting a team where half the players either are in trouble with the law or are nursing an injury. Fans have embraced guys like Granger and Dunleavy somewhat for their willingness to play on and not complain.

The one thing that I have noticed over the past few years is that even the casual fan of the Pacers who knew the Reggie Miller teams and even the JO and Artest teams of the mid 2000's is no longer interested in the Pacers. Think about how many groups would attend a Pacers game? Count how many you see now. Look at how many families would attend a Pacers game? Count how many attend now.

it's not just the losing that's affected the Pacers, it's been the attitude and culture of the past several years. Until that changes, the Pacers will continue to struggle. Don't get me wrong, I love the Pacers and always will, but a few bad seeds can ruin everything else. I do feel sorry for guys like Foster, Granger, Dunleavy and others who do give it their all every night. But until something is done, when 40% of your team payroll is not playing and the attitude and culture changes, the Pacers will continue to drive away the fans.

[Noodle]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

The word thug has a negative conotation not racial undertones. The word itself is not racist. Modern day black culture has adopted the word as a way of identity. This also happened with the Italian and Irish gangs. Its a way of social evolution.

[Bball]

Re: IBJ: A "real" sports town wouldn't abandon the Pacers

This is exactly the type of scenario I predicted and was worried about. I said if the Simons think that our management team has been properly running this franchise then the next logical place to lay blame was on the fans. So now we wait and see if Benner is speaking for himself or as a PR arm of PS&E. Even if he's speaking for himself, if the Simons are like-minded (and Benner is showing you some people can surely think this way), then the next step (selling the team) isn't hard to take.

This is a shame on many levels, but TPTB shouldn't blame the fans for not caring about the Pacers... they should blame themselves for not caring about the fans. The fans spoke a long time ago... TPTB didn't listen. That might work if you wait it out and the fans were wrong. That will blow up in your face if you wait it out and it turns out the fans were right.

-Bball

-Bball