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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

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If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

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A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

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If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

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The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

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However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

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We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

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Rule #10

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Musings from a weekend in May of 2024 in Indiana against New York

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  • #1

    Musings from a weekend in May of 2024 in Indiana against New York

    So it's may, the weather is warm, spring is in full bloom in Indiana as tree's are green, flowers are starting to bloom and once again we are facing the New York Knicks in a playoff series that is now once again guaranteed to go to at least a game 6. Somehow someway this seems appropriate.

    First let me get an apology out of the way. I owe BillS an apology because at the end of the Buck series I told him I would much rather faced the 76ers over the Knicks. Not because I didn't appreciate the rivalry or history but because I thought we had a better chance of beating the 76ers. I stand by my statement of that btw, but where I was wrong was in not embracing the morality play that is the Pacers vs Knicks. So yes BillS was right and I was wrong no matter how this ends because in the future when we are reminiscing about the past we are going to look back and this will be added to the long and storied tales between the two teams. Obviously the first two games made me want to throw a brick through my television, even though both games were competitive and from an outsiders perspective or Knicks fans perspective fun. Game 3 was fun from an outsiders perspective and a Pacers fan perspective and game 4 was fun for Pacers fans alone. But overall this has been one hell of a series.

    You can't have a great series without a great opponent and guys, the Knicks (just as they were in the 90's) are a great opponent. If we can beat them, and believe me that is still nowhere near a guarantee, our team will have learned a ton in perseverance & toughness. Something we have lacked for most of the season but have shown some in the playoffs. If we lose to them, while disappointing, we will still learn the same things. I would hope they are learning something from us as well. To use the old clich?. "Iron sharpens Iron".

    Do they exaggerate some things to draw a foul? Of course they do, hard to complain about that though when the all time face of your franchise is Reggie Miller. Instead of trying to act above it and be better than it I say we should learn from it and employ the same strategy to a smaller scale ourselves going forward. Hey, I wish we lived in a world where that type of behavior wasn't rewarded but it is. So since everyone else does it I say we shouldn't be above it either. I say this with the full embarrassment of suggesting this while Dale Davis is still in our state as he never so much as flinched on a blocking foul. But this is the times in which we live.

    All of us Carlisle complainers, I include myself as the #1 culprit, have to eat some crow from these past two games. He absolutely has changed the defensive assignments and switched up how we attacked Brunson in both games and DiVincenzo this game. Fatigue is a factor, nobody will deny that, but at the end of the day that is the way the Knicks choose to play (big minutes) and Rick has chosen to keep fresh legs on the floor. It wasn't a great idea vs the Bucks but it is absolutely the way to attack the Knicks.

    So, while I reserve the right to ***** and complain in the future about Rick and his rotations, I will happily eat crow today.

    If I could put my finger on one statistic today that I felt was the reason for the huge victory it would be this. We beat the Knicks on the boards 52-43. Josh Hart who has been an absolute monster on the boards was held to a playoff low of 3 while is non union equivalent Aaron Nesmith had 12. That was devastating to their ability to make runs and took some of their energy. How fitting was it that we won the rebound battle with the greatest NBA pacers rebounder in the house. (I have a feeling I will be addressing this person somewhere in the future)

    For a team that is not known to be a good defensive team, the Pacers actually played solid defense today. Once again nobody is denying the Knicks have fatigue and injury but that does not take away the effort our guys put in. If anyone knows our teams history this season they know that we could have just as easily walked out there and laid a dud of a game and overlooked them. We didn't and that needs to be acknowledged.

    Let's give grades today, shall we? As always grades are totally subjective and I also tend to grade based on ability, expectation and how they perform.

    Aaron Nesmith: I start with him because IMO he was probably the most important player today. He set the tone early and kept the energy up the entire time he was in there. Since he has been assigned to guarding Brunson, Jalen has not had the free looks that he had been getting throughout the playoffs (Philly as well) and can't seem to draw the fouls that he is used to getting. When Jalen looks in the mirror in his hotel room I'm pretty sure he will see Aaron looking out at him. His 12 rebounds were all tough,& in traffic. I can't make up my mind which was the most important thing he did today. Guard Brunson into a pedestrian game or lead everybody in rebounding. My gut feeling tells me the rebounding was important because both McConnel and Shepard did an admirable job on Brunson as well. My personal belief is that when Dale Davis waved his towel when he was revving up the car that he was slinging magic tough dust that landed on our bench thus somehow even making Myles Turner not soft for this one game.

    Grade: A (going 0-4 from 3 kept him from an A+)

    Pascal Siakam: 7-9 from the field was huge. When we had a few possessions where we struggled Pascal went down and got some tough in traffic shots and hit them. I'll be honest I don't understand why Thibs went away from Achiuwa in the second half. I assume he just wanted to to get more offense but it was a disaster both on the boards and the ability to guard Pascal. Statistically it wasn't a spectacular game but hey he only played 22 min. I will award him a solid game but he did what was needed in times that we needed it.

    Grade: B+

    Myles Turner: 5-5 from the field 3 blocks and 5 rebounds all in 25 minutes. Actually we need to take the time to point this out as well. The Knicks rested their team in the 4th but guess what, so did we. There is no advantage for them in getting more rest than us. In fact after the game we went to our own beds and I'm sure they flew out. Anyway back to Myles. When you are perfect from the field, block more shots than their entire team and don't embarrass yourself in rebounding (again crediting the all time leader in rebounding here) then you deserve a monster score.

    Grade: A

    Andrew Nembhard: 4 of 5 from the field with only 2 of those being 3's. I think he set the tone early by attacking the paint and not just settling for outside shots. He was part of the reason that DiVincenzo was mostly irrelevant today, yes for those of you from NY we are acknowledging fatigue is a factor as well. Dished out 5 dimes and was still basking in the glow of that huge *** shot from Friday. His defense has been solid, even on Brunson just not as great as Aaron's has been these past two games. But he certainly played his part today.

    Grade: B+ (I'm giving him the + for hitting that shot Friday)

    Tyrese Haliburton: Man do fanbases around the NBA hate this guy. The Knicks fans online are comical about it but my God do the Bucks fans hate this guy, he is living rent free in their heads while they celebrate their summer vacations. Anyway, while his scoring was nice him grabbing 6 rebounds (I think mostly in the first half) was huge. The reason it was huge? His task today was to guard Josh Hart. Well what is Hart's main super power? Rebounding. Tyrese outrebounded their super rebounder. That tough dust clearly landed squarely on Haliburton. Good passing, good shooting and in the tradition of Knicks vs Pacers he provided quality trash talking and a villain for N.Y. to root against. He played the most minutes of any pacer today and he only played 27 minutes.

    Grade: A

    T.J. McConnell: His entire game, and series for that matter, can be best summed up by Josh Hart. When asked about the play of McConnell Hart replied that he was an annoying little ****. I can't think of a bigger compliment than that other than maybe Doc Rivers calling him a pain in the ***. Enjoy every minute that he gives us on the floor folks because it won't last forever and while we can't expect him to play at a super high level every game, he will give you super high effort EVERY SINGLE TIME. He was a part of the trifecta that harassed Brunson into a pedestrian game. All while dropping 10 dimes and hitting 50% from the field including 100% from 3. I'm sure there is someone in upstate N.Y. that uttered an unholy word on mother's day because of T.J.

    Grade: A

    Obi Toppin: Obi didn't get dusted by tough dust and also did not get the rebounding memo today. But what he did get was the speech from Micky from Rocky 2 about speed. Obi just runs whoever their 4 is at the time to death and as great as Hart is he suffers from the same problem Nesmith suffers from in a lot of games. He's to short to affect Obi's shot. Achiuwa has the size but not the speed. Obi coming in and dropping 14 points on them with 55% shooting is crushing for them because they need to keep the scoring low across the boards. I will say this about Obi, Since moving to the bench and being an energy guy who can score he has totally changed his value to our team. I'm not ready yet to give the full metal jacket speech of born again hard, but I'll say he has certainly redeemed himself from the very weak start to the season he had.

    Grade: B

    Isaiah Jackson: Ready when called upon and that means a lot for a team that left him out of the lineup for a large part of the season. He plays physical and is always jumping, sometimes to his detriment foul wise but he is slowly getting better about it. 10 points on 50% shooting and 100% from the line. No blocks today but did steal the ball twice. Did what he was called in to do. Also he matches the physical play and style of the Knicks as well. Nobody on their team shove him around.

    Grade B

    Ben Sheppard: 1/3 of the trinity that made life not so fun for Brunson. He spent the least amount of time on him but when he did his length did seem to bother him a little. But the most important thing Ben did all day long was grab 7 rebounds. In other words he had more boards than any Knick player did in only 18:44 minutes. Clearly the tough dust landed on him as well. Rock solid defense & great rebounding, what more can you ask for a player picked in the last part of the first round. I guess we could ask for better shooting but it didn't matter today.

    Grade: B

    It was nice to see Jalen Smith get a few productive minutes on the floor. I really had hoped he wouldn't revert into his shell like he has but here we are. I still think he could help going forward because he IMO is still the best interior rebounder on the squad. But I'm not sure his season isn't over.

    I don't want to grade him because there isn't a score low enough and I just want to rejoice in our day. But what does Doug McDermott offer that a good roast beef sandwich wouldn't? At least I might enjoy the roast beef. But I'm not going to let him hold me down today.

    This was a magical weekend of basketball in Indiana. For those of you that couldn't be here I can only say that being in the fieldhouse in May vs the Knicks is almost mythical in nature. And this series has already offered just as much drama as any Pacers Knicks series from the past.

    The fans in Indiana have been nothing short of spectacular btw. This game was just an oddity because in the first half the place was alive and by the time we left it was as quiet as a church because the game had been over with for almost an hour.

    I know I am probably going to regret this because we may get trashed on Tuesday but I just feel the need to bring back the song that I haven't used since Frank was here.
    Last edited by Peck; 05-13-2024, 05:10 AM.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
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    • 5 likes
  • #2
    One grade to add but not team wise. My goodness could Doris Burke be even the slightest impartial. The end of the first quarter when Shep went straight up and she was complaining the Knicks were fouled just gets silly. The bias simply gets old and NY Doris can take her D- and go home.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....
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    • #3
      Originally posted by RWB View Post
      One grade to add but not team wise. My goodness could Doris Burke be even the slightest impartial. The end of the first quarter when Shep went straight up and she was complaining the Knicks were fouled just gets silly. The bias simply gets old and NY Doris can take her D- and go home.
      Fortunately for me, I have no way of knowing this. The only person I heard today was Troy Peppers (PA announcer)


      Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
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      • #4
        I'm going to push back on the rebounding part. Here are the Knicks and Pacers offensive rebounding percentages for both the regular season and every game in this series. Offensive rebounding percentage is exactly what it sounds like, if you miss a shot what % of time did you get the rebound?

        Regular Season
        Knicks 33.3 own, defense gave up an average of 27.9. Pacers 28.4 own, give up average of 30.0.

        Game 1
        Knicks 34.1, Pacers 22.2

        Game 2
        Knicks 44.7, Pacers 36

        Game 3
        Pacers 31.3, Knicks 27.9

        Game 4
        Knicks 33.3, Pacers 26.3

        How did the Pacers win the raw rebounding battle by 9 then? Defense. If you force way more misses than your opponent, you're almost certainly going to win the raw rebounding battle because defensive rebounds are way easier to get than offensive ones.

        And that's what happened yesterday. The Knicks missed 59 shots yesterday, the Pacers only 38. So even though the Pacers gave up about the same percentage of offensive rebounds as usual, they are still grabbing 2/3 of the defensive boards. And when there are a lot more defensive boards to go around, that's going to inflate their raw total.

        This is the stat that changed the game and led to the rebounding difference:

        NY FG% by game:
        Game 1 53.7%,
        Game 2 57.0%
        Game 3 47.5%
        Game 4 33.7%


        Edit: Now I do want to point out that in the first 3 quarters when both teams still had their competitive players in, it was basically Pacers 34, Knicks 33 in offensive rebounding percentages. The Pacers didn't have a single offensive rebound in the 4th which changed the overall numbers a bit. So that paints a better picture for the Pacers rebounding wise, but my point above still stands that defense was a much bigger factor than being better on the boards itself.
        Last edited by Cubs231721; 05-13-2024, 05:47 AM.
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        • #5
          Yea I don't know about the iron sharpening iron bit here. The Knicks with Robinson and OG might have been iron. With Randle and Bojan they may have even been steel. What's left, without all those guys, the team the Pacers are beating? Copper at best. Feels a little bit like talking up an opponent you are beating to feel good about yourself.

          To give the Pacers credit, though, last night was the first time all playoffs where I felt like they didn't play down to copper, they pushed into the shape they wanted handily and they do deserve credit for that.
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          • #6
            The thing that stood out to me was the constant
            defensive harassment all game long and pushing the pace.
            A game every other day favors the Pacers. So as
            the Knicks tire those incredible shooting percentages
            will be very har to obtain resulting in more rebounds
            and fast breaks.

            A special shout out to TJ. He is a pain for the other team.
            From a not going to play guy at the beginning to
            and indispensable cog for the Pacers
            {o,o}
            |)__)
            -"-"-
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dece View Post
              Yea I don't know about the iron sharpening iron bit here. The Knicks with Robinson and OG might have been iron. With Randle and Bojan they may have even been steel. What's left, without all those guys, the team the Pacers are beating? Copper at best. Feels a little bit like talking up an opponent you are beating to feel good about yourself.

              To give the Pacers credit, though, last night was the first time all playoffs where I felt like they didn't play down to copper, they pushed into the shape they wanted handily and they do deserve credit for that.
              Maybe so, but we're the 2nd youngest team left in the playoffs getting multiple reps in big playoff moments. Good way to improve.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post

                Maybe so, but we're the 2nd youngest team left in the playoffs getting multiple reps in big playoff moments. Good way to improve.
                I don't have any problem being excited about the reps, being happy to win, any of that, that's what a fan should be doing. Taking care of the Knicks on mother's day felt great.

                What I'm starting to see, though, is people trying to re-write reality. When the Pacers win this series (Pacers in 6 btw), it'll be a really fun, exciting thing, and helpful for the team's growth. What it won't be a sign that the team is already a contender, or a top 4 team in the league, or anything like that. Being one of the last 4 teams playing is great, but it doesn't mean those things and I think people are pushing for it to mean exactly that. You can only play who is in front of you, every year some team or other gets unlucky and some team or other gets lucky. The Pacers have gotten unlucky before, catching Bron early in the playoffs etc, but this year they have gotten what I would call undeniably lucky. Yet some people are denying it. I think that's weird stuff. Reality is good enough, people shouldn't need to invent fables to make it greater.

                The Knicks aren't iron. The Pacers needed these high stakes games to get tougher. Both things can be true.
                • 4 likes

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dece View Post

                  I don't have any problem being excited about the reps, being happy to win, any of that, that's what a fan should be doing. Taking care of the Knicks on mother's day felt great.

                  What I'm starting to see, though, is people trying to re-write reality. When the Pacers win this series (Pacers in 6 btw), it'll be a really fun, exciting thing, and helpful for the team's growth. What it won't be a sign that the team is already a contender, or a top 4 team in the league, or anything like that. Being one of the last 4 teams playing is great, but it doesn't mean those things and I think people are pushing for it to mean exactly that. You can only play who is in front of you, every year some team or other gets unlucky and some team or other gets lucky. The Pacers have gotten unlucky before, catching Bron early in the playoffs etc, but this year they have gotten what I would call undeniably lucky. Yet some people are denying it. I think that's weird stuff. Reality is good enough, people shouldn't need to invent fables to make it greater.

                  The Knicks aren't iron. The Pacers needed these high stakes games to get tougher. Both things can be true.
                  Hawks made it to the EFC a couple of years ago the future was bright, now go forward to 2024 and they are looking to blow that thing up.

                  Of course a huge amount of people don't know this because they don't watch.
                  @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                  • #10
                    non union equivalent
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dece View Post

                      I don't have any problem being excited about the reps, being happy to win, any of that, that's what a fan should be doing. Taking care of the Knicks on mother's day felt great.

                      What I'm starting to see, though, is people trying to re-write reality. When the Pacers win this series (Pacers in 6 btw), it'll be a really fun, exciting thing, and helpful for the team's growth. What it won't be a sign that the team is already a contender, or a top 4 team in the league, or anything like that. Being one of the last 4 teams playing is great, but it doesn't mean those things and I think people are pushing for it to mean exactly that. You can only play who is in front of you, every year some team or other gets unlucky and some team or other gets lucky. The Pacers have gotten unlucky before, catching Bron early in the playoffs etc, but this year they have gotten what I would call undeniably lucky. Yet some people are denying it. I think that's weird stuff. Reality is good enough, people shouldn't need to invent fables to make it greater.

                      The Knicks aren't iron. The Pacers needed these high stakes games to get tougher. Both things can be true.
                      I would agree. Although I would say this. There are really 4 levels of playoff teams:

                      Favorites- usually only 2-3 of these, sometimes 1.
                      Contenders- Teams you would be surprised if they won the title, but wouldn't be shocked.
                      Swing Teams- These are teams who can make the conference Finals with breaks but often go out in the first round as well.
                      Happy to be there teams- These are teams who just don't have the talent to beat anybody else in the playoffs.

                      The argument before the playoffs was whether the Pacers were a swing team or a happy to be there team. And that argument persisted through a decent chunk of the Bucks series.

                      I think at this point that argument is put to rest. I think the Pacers have proven they are currently a swing team. And I think most of the board agrees with that. But you are right, there are some who want to push it a little farther than that.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dece View Post

                        I don't have any problem being excited about the reps, being happy to win, any of that, that's what a fan should be doing. Taking care of the Knicks on mother's day felt great.

                        What I'm starting to see, though, is people trying to re-write reality. When the Pacers win this series (Pacers in 6 btw), it'll be a really fun, exciting thing, and helpful for the team's growth. What it won't be a sign that the team is already a contender, or a top 4 team in the league, or anything like that. Being one of the last 4 teams playing is great, but it doesn't mean those things and I think people are pushing for it to mean exactly that. You can only play who is in front of you, every year some team or other gets unlucky and some team or other gets lucky. The Pacers have gotten unlucky before, catching Bron early in the playoffs etc, but this year they have gotten what I would call undeniably lucky. Yet some people are denying it. I think that's weird stuff. Reality is good enough, people shouldn't need to invent fables to make it greater.

                        The Knicks aren't iron. The Pacers needed these high stakes games to get tougher. Both things can be true.
                        They are "iron" for a team that at one point we weren't sure were going to make the playoffs. It's all relative.

                        Agree hard with most of the above though: we have a long way to go, but I like the direction and I suspect that this run molds our fresh young minds more into hungry competitors vs. continuous losers.

                        I suspect that Mathurin is infuriated that he has to sit on the sidelines to watch all of this. Nembhard, Nesmith, and Sheppard? Molded into gamers.

                        That to me is the most positive outcome of this year IMO. All of these players work their asses off this offseason now that they've had a taste of the good stuff.

                        One of the things that watching our team play the Knicks makes apparent is that we need another level of fight. Knicks are tough as nails and literally will go down swinging. Pacers need that extra gear. Game 3 ending was a small taste of that. But largely a nice shot at the end of the game. Game 4 OTOH, was a taste of what I’m looking for.

                        Hopefully this offseason brings another level of toughness when they eventually lose to either the Knicks or the Celtics.

                        Once they step up the toughness and have better crunch time decision-making, they’ll be true contenders.
                        Last edited by docpaul; 05-13-2024, 06:55 PM.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cubs231721 View Post

                          I would agree. Although I would say this. There are really 4 levels of playoff teams:

                          Favorites- usually only 2-3 of these, sometimes 1.
                          Contenders- Teams you would be surprised if they won the title, but wouldn't be shocked.
                          Swing Teams- These are teams who can make the conference Finals with breaks but often go out in the first round as well.
                          Happy to be there teams- These are teams who just don't have the talent to beat anybody else in the playoffs.

                          The argument before the playoffs was whether the Pacers were a swing team or a happy to be there team. And that argument persisted through a decent chunk of the Bucks series.

                          I think at this point that argument is put to rest. I think the Pacers have proven they are currently a swing team. And I think most of the board agrees with that. But you are right, there are some who want to push it a little farther than that.
                          I think your system for setting playoff team tiers is quite good, but I don't think I'm ready to say the Pacers have proven they aren't just a happy to be there team. The Bucks without Giannis would not have made the playoffs. The Knicks are missing 4 of their 5 highest paid players, they have $82.5M sitting in street clothes, and they still are winning the series (though it's not over). V mentioned the Atlanta Hawks and I think there's definitely some parallels to be drawn. They made the ECF in 2021 with a dynamic offensive point guard who doesn't play any defense. They now have two first round bounces and a missed playoffs to follow that up with. They proved they were just a happy to be there team that got lucky, in my mind. I hope that isn't the Pacers, but I don't know how else to view struggling with a Knicks team that is this depleted.

                          The unfortunate part is that there aren't really many ways to improve the roster. I feel with near certainty management will market this run as a strong swing team or contender and just try to bring all the guys back as best they can. Just have to hope that Mathurin comes back from his injury better than he has been, because I haven't been impressed so far, and that Walker isn't actually 2 years away from being 2 years away.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dece View Post

                            I think your system for setting playoff team tiers is quite good, but I don't think I'm ready to say the Pacers have proven they aren't just a happy to be there team. The Bucks without Giannis would not have made the playoffs. The Knicks are missing 4 of their 5 highest paid players, they have $82.5M sitting in street clothes, and they still are winning the series (though it's not over). V mentioned the Atlanta Hawks and I think there's definitely some parallels to be drawn. They made the ECF in 2021 with a dynamic offensive point guard who doesn't play any defense. They now have two first round bounces and a missed playoffs to follow that up with. They proved they were just a happy to be there team that got lucky, in my mind. I hope that isn't the Pacers, but I don't know how else to view struggling with a Knicks team that is this depleted.

                            The unfortunate part is that there aren't really many ways to improve the roster. I feel with near certainty management will market this run as a strong swing team or contender and just try to bring all the guys back as best they can. Just have to hope that Mathurin comes back from his injury better than he has been, because I haven't been impressed so far, and that Walker isn't actually 2 years away from being 2 years away.
                            I think we're close. I would say the Hawks were a swing team in 2020-2021 and since then their mismanagement has pushed them down to being a happy to be there team. You can see that in the degradation of their regular season results year over year as well.

                            If you want to point to another similar team, the 2010's Trail Blazers come to mind. Another team led by an offense first point guard. That team went second round, first round, second round, first round (swept), first round (swept), conference finals, first round, first round over an 8 year period. That's a classic swing team.

                            And I would push back a little on the Knicks. The Knicks 4 of their 5 best players in street clothes? They played 129 games combined for the Knicks this year. They were 5th, 9th, 10th, and 14th for the Knicks in minutes this year.

                            Do I think the Knicks are 50 win quality with all 4 gone at once? No. But they are still a solid team. And the most important of those four for playoff success was a key part of the Knicks winning two games this series.

                            Finally, I would agree that we can't look to external options to improve the Pacers much. It's going to have to come from the young guys getting better (and that even includes Haliburton). I have said from the beginning that I thought the Pacers were 2-3 years away from hitting their theoretical ceiling. Whether that theory can turns to reality is much, much harder.

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                            • #15
                              They need strength and size in the front court
                              So a draft pick or two in the second or move up
                              to get Clingan or Edey or NFaly Dante in the second.
                              {o,o}
                              |)__)
                              -"-"-

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