Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

[OakMoses]

I'm probably not the best person to start this since I only got to watch the first half, but here are some thoughts.

The players that looked the best:

Mike Dunleavy, Marquis Daniels, and Shawne Williams.

Dunleavy and Daniels seemed to thrive in the faster pace, motion offense that O'Brien runs. They were both able to grab rebounds on the defensive end and then turn immediately and push the ball upcourt. It reminded me of the way Kidd will grab a rebound and initiate the break in New Jersey. Neither of these guys are as talented as Kidd, but they are both good rebounders and ball-handlers who do well in that role. They were also shuffled through the post and both were able to take advantage of mismatches and their strong mid-range games.

Shawne looked more aggressive and assured with his ball-handling than last year. His jumpshot still looks great, and he looks stronger.

Dunleavy, Murphy, and Tinsley all look to be in much better playing shape than last year. Dun and Murphy are bigger. Tinsley looks slimmer.

Jeff had a classic Jeff game and looked good doing it.

It seemed that Harrison was being used in the high post and was passing to guys down low who were cutting off of back picks. This is where his 3 assists came from. I don't know if JO will be used this way, but I wonder how he'll like it if he is.

Ike was given some scoring opportunities in the post, but didn't take advantage of them. This leads me to believe that there are mechanisms in place to get the ball down low to JO when he plays.

Diener looked better on defense than I expected. He's very pesky. He'll also never be charged with not giving 100%.

Owens looked strong defensively but looked like a Fred Jones style one trick pony on offense. He's definitely not a distributor, but he loves to attack the basket.

My favorite quote of the night was from Slick: "Some people call it help side defense, some people call it zone."

The defense was effective, with some lapses, at keeping people out of the paint. The Hornets seemed to be able to get open looks from outside when they had good ball movement.

All in all, I liked what I saw, but we clearly have a ways to go before we're ready for the season.

[Speed]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

I guess looking at the box score, I'm not really surprised. I think alot of what Obie is trying to do with the Motion and freelance pushing the ball is predicated on Bball instinct. You can call it IQ I suppose, but I think it's more about instinct, just knowing where to be on the court offensively relatively to 5 other guys. Same goes for Defense.

In Indiana its taught from the first organized team your on and becomes second nature later.

The players who have this, Dun, Tins, Foster and DG (whose shot just didn't appear to fall) will excel.

Guys like Ike, Harrison and dare I say it JO (not as bad as the past) who have to think about what to do, will struggle, at least at first.

[Unclebuck]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

I guess looking at the box score, I'm not really surprised. I think alot of what Obie is trying to do with the Motion and freelance pushing the ball is predicated on Bball instinct. You can call it IQ I suppose, but I think it's more about instinct, just knowing where to be on the court offensively relatively to 5 other guys. Same goes for Defense.

In Indiana its taught from the first organized team your on and becomes second nature later.

The players who have this, Dun, Tins, Foster and DG (whose shot just didn't appear to fall) will excel.

Guys like Ike, Harrison and dare I say it JO (not as bad as the past) who have to think about what to do, will struggle, at least at first.

Excellent analysis. I agree with you about Foster - but I suspect most people in this forum will disagree with you.

I agree with you that there is a difference between basketball IQ and basketball instincts. Tinsley has great instincts, but not good IQ. Dunleavy has good IQ and instincts. Harrison (and Ike but to a lesser degree) have bad instincts and IQ.

[Speed]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

Excellent analysis. I agree with you about Foster - but I suspect most people in this forum will disagree with you.

I agree with you that there is a difference between basketball IQ and basketball instincts. Tinsley has great instincts, but not good IQ. Dunleavy has good IQ and instincts. Harrison (and Ike but to a lesser degree) have bad instincts and IQ.

http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/ask_the_pacers_v2.html

Thanks, I think this is the same thing Obie was saying about Jeff below.

..Jeff is indispensable to us, a great leader, his work ethic is wonderful, he has a terrific understanding of the game, a great understanding of Jamaal and Jermaine – he knows how to work off them and they know how to work off him...

[OakMoses]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

I agree about Jeff having good IQ and instincts, but the one thing that was bugging me last night was his diagonal rebounding. It works wonders on the offensive end, but not so great defensively. There were several times when NO got offensive rebounds because Jeff tried to sneak in and grab the ball when he should have just boxed his man out.

Overall, I thought boxing out was a weakness for the team as a whole last night.

I think you could add 'Quis to your list of players with good IQ/instincts. He seems to be in the right place, at least defensively, much of the time. He also seems more comfortable in a both the open court and in a motion-style offense.

One more thing, I know that Mo Pete is no Dwayne Wade, but he didn't give Dunleavy any significant problems on the defensive end last night.

[idioteque]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

Interesting analysis.

Dunleavy and Marquis are definately interesting cogs to Obie's system. They're the kind of above average, but not amazing guys that have the ability to look really, really good in a system in which fits them, but can also look horribly average in one that constrains their strengths.

Shawne I think has the potential to rise above that level.

I won't make any bold predictions, but I think that Obie has the ability to get the best out of what we have. The "best" could be only 42-45 wins and another season of mediocrity and another mid first rounder, which I'm willing to live without. So the implications of this could kinda suck. I'd like to see under 30 wins this year, or 46 and over. Nothing in between.

[Speed]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

but I think that Obie has the ability to get the best out of what we have. The "best" could be only 42-45 wins and another season of mediocrity and another mid first rounder, which I'm willing to live without.

That is all I would ask if I was Bird.

I don't think the Pacers have truely done that since the 61 win season.

Bird and Walsh always used to talk about not knowing what they had. Well if Obie can get the best out of this group at least you can identify where you need to go with the next step, more intelligently, than you would if you didn't know where you are at now.

Even if you are "in between" maybe you know what can put you over the top or that you are too far away that you have to really start over.

[Naptown_Seth]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

[On RANT]
As I was recently informed in another thread, every single word posted here is pointless, as these games have zero meaning and you can't read anything into them. It is apparently impossible to guage any aspect of any player in any preseason game.

Sorry, but I deserve these sour grapes. I was dressed down pretty badly for suggesting that we won't get our best read on the Pacers preseason because the schedule doesn't give them many good tests. I was informed that this was hogwash.
[OFF RANT]



Now obviously I don't agree and I do think there is merit to discussing the results. I didn't get to see, only listened to as much as I could while on a break.

But Dun in transition looking good, that doesn't surprise me. He is a better open court guy than probably anyone on the team. I said that last season even during the losing. I don't like him as SG, on defense, or shooting the 3. But I do like the ball in his hands as a facilitator and on the break.

Shawne is young and I assume the running plays to his advantage. He sounded pleased with it post-game that's for sure, including his comments on how beat everyone has been after practices in camp. We were so focused on how JOB's 3ball style plays to his hands that we overlooked what running might do for him.


I disagree about Danny. He's clearly a thinker rather than an instincts guy. Last year it was Danny that got lost and Shawne who seemed to read situations a lot better. Danny is smart and I think can learn any of it, but I do think that's his process - learning rather than just instinct.

DG to me is a player that will progress which is why I feel good for his slow but steady growth. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to turn insta-stud, I don't get the vibe that he'll make that type of jump. Instead he'll just keep getting better long past when other guys hit the wall.


But my worries.

Was this really JOB ball? Meaning has the team found it yet? 7 3PAs in the first half which they won. 11 3PAs in the 2nd half which they were crushed in.

Also they did a lot of damage against the Hornet scrubs and prospects in the last 1st and then full 2nd quarter. Foster, Danny, Daniels, Tinsley vs Hilton, Richardson, Vinicius, Pargo, Wright. As I said before, not exactly a true test for those guys. That's 4 Pacers who have and still could/will start for the team. Heck Dun and Troy rotated in too.

You have to expect the Pacers starters to beat the Hornets prospects and bench.

Outrebounding the Hornets badly, I mean really, really badly. Is this JOB's style when you stir Jeff into the mix? Or just a fluke of an early pre-season game? Honestly I have no idea, but it sure came out of left field either way. Maybe Jeff is the big man JOB never had.

Foster 80% from the FT line on 10 attempts. Has this EVER happened, seriously?

Peja 2-9 and 1-6 with ZERO rebounds. I know he's soft on the glass, but zilch in 20+ minutes is pretty awful even for him.

Harrison 9 minutes, 1 foul, 3 rebounds, 3 assists. Come on, did JO put on Hulk's uniform and sneak in? That kind of output from David over the long term would be a minor miracle, even in preseason.



Ultimately to me it sounds like they didn't really win with "JOB ball" full on due to the scrimmage nature and that they are still learning. The defense and running are probably the first things that have taken hold, or so it sounds.

Also sounds like most guys are on track for expectations except Dunleavy who might actually be poised for a big turnaround (it was nice to see that he hit a couple of threes). That would change the fortunes of the Pacers drastically.

Also good that Rush played and delivered about on par with what you could expect. That's gotta be a high concern for any Pacers fan, what will we get from him.

Ike, eh. I hope he has more to offer than that.

Jeff vs Troy for starting minutes, did this game heat that competition up? Seems like it's Jeff's hustle/rebounds vs Troy's shot. I don't think Jeff can count on FTs to normally give him the help on offense so I think this debate is still way up in the air.


Thank god the next game is on TV.

[Speed]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

Here is some questions for last nights game and stuff I'll be watching for on Sat.

How did Murphy and Duns Defense look?

Did Tins keep his man in front of him?

Did DG just go 0-8, to start, cuz he missed good shots or were they bad shots?

Is Rush instant offense, off the bench or was it just in the flow of things?

Did NO try to bully Deiner and if so how did he do?

What was Harrisons demeanor or was 9 mins not enough to tell?

How much did Daniels run the point or did he? how did he look?

Ike sounded lost and the stat sheet seems that way, is that correct? If so, I wonder why he played the most mins?

Did Foster take any jumpers... did he make them...does his shot look better?

Did the add on guy from Michigan look like an NBA potential player?

[OakMoses]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

Here is some questions for last nights game and stuff I'll be watching for on Sat.

How did Murphy and Duns Defense look?

Did Tins keep his man in front of him?

Did DG just go 0-8, to start, cuz he missed good shots or were they bad shots?

Is Rush instant offense, off the bench or was it just in the flow of things?

Did NO try to bully Deiner and if so how did he do?

What was Harrisons demeanor or was 9 mins not enough to tell?

How much did Daniels run the point or did he? how did he look?

Ike sounded lost and the stat sheet seems that way, is that correct? If so, I wonder why he played the most mins?

Did Foster take any jumpers... did he make them...does his shot look better?

Did the add on guy from Michigan look like an NBA potential player?

I'll answer what I can. I only watched the 1st half.

Troy and Dun looked pretty good on defense. I don't know that we can tell much from this game, but Troy's added bulk seemed to help when West posted him up. He was able to contest nearly every shot West took while Troy was guarding him.

Tins picked up a couple of quick fouls trying to guard Chris Paul. He wasn't all that successful at keeping Paul in front of him, but the effort was there.

Danny's shots were open shots that just didn't fall. A couple of them would probably be consider bad shots by O'Brien because they were only a couple steps inside the arc. After his first couple open looks didn't fall, Danny seemed to be pressing a bit. It looked like he was trying too hard.

I didn't see Rush play.

NO did not try to bully Diener, but I don't think they have the personnel to do so.

Harrison looked like a very mediocre NBA big man. He stared down the ref once after being called for a foul. There was also a great moment where he started to get after the ref for not calling a foul. Then O'Brien gave him the stink-eye and he shut right up.

Daniels was always on the floor with either Tins, Diener, or Owens. If this game is any indication, however, the 2 guard has the freedom to bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense in this system. Daniels looked comfortable doing this.

I like Ike, and I really wanted to see something from him last night. I didn't. Lost is a very apt word to describe how he looked.

I don't recall Jeff shooting any jumpers.

I didn't see the guy from Michigan.

I have one question for someone who saw the second half:

How did Rush look as a ball-handler and defender?

[Naptown_Seth]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

I hate to say it Melli, but your report seems to back that vibe I got of "basically what you expect". Everyone is so down on me, but let's be honest, even as bad as they finished last year this roster could win a few games, and at home against 50% NO bench/prospects would have been one of those games.

The GS deal was supposed to hinge on Ike. Hate hearing his slow start. Guess I'm not sure just how a player could be "lost" in JOB's offense. Perhaps he's a player that needs his plan spelled out for him, as in "if this then that, if that then this" rather than the freedom JOB's system entails.

Some players like structure just as much as others hate it.

One thing I had zero concern with is Mike/Quis bringing the ball up. I'd be shocked if they couldn't handle it in fact.

That extra Harrison news...ugh. GD he ticks me off.

I did hear Shawne say that JOB would give them an earful if they took "non-open" shots. I wonder if Granger heard about any that he forced if that was the case.

[Anthem]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

That extra Harrison news...ugh. GD he ticks me off.

Wait, I missed something. What extra news?

[Speed]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071011/SPORTS04/710110557

Indiana Pacers forward Jermaine O'Neal's knee injury doesn't appear to be serious, but David Harrison could be held out awhile to allow his sprained ankle to heal.

O'Neal sat out Wednesday's pre-season opener against New Orleans and today's practice at Conseco Fieldhouse, but could play Saturday against Seattle.

O'Neal banged his left knee against teammate Shawne Williams in practice on Monday and has since suffered swelling.

Pacers coach Jim O'Brien said O'Neal asked to participate on Wednesday and Thursday, but was held out by the team's athletic training staff.

"He's willing, but the medical people were saying not to do it.

"I don't think it's going to be a chronic situation."

Harrison aggravated a sprained ankle in Wednesday's game. O'Brien said he leans toward having Harrison sit out until the ankle is completely healed.

Danny Granger played Wednesday's game with an eye infection that caused swelling, but his condition is not considered serious.

[MagicRat]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

I hate to say it Melli, but your report seems to back that vibe I got of "basically what you expect". Everyone is so down on me, but let's be honest, even as bad as they finished last year this roster could win a few games, and at home against 50% NO bench/prospects would have been one of those games.

According to my calculations the starters projected for these patently pitiful Pacers played 31% of the available minutes. I'm amazed they could even pretend to hang against a potential playoff team from the perennially powerful Western Conference who's starters played 50%.........

[McKeyFan]

Re: Indy v. NO - 10/10 - Post Game

It seems like Seth kinda doesn't want the JOB Pacers to outshine the Controlisle Pacers.

Regarding the long list of questions:

- Tins looked markedly better on defense to me. But since he was guarding one of the quickest PGs in the league, he still struggled. But there is no question his attitude seems to be resurrected by a new system and an endorsement from the head coach. Still too early, but the results so far look good.

- Marquis Daniels looked quite good. I think he always does. Injuries are my concern with him. Otherwise, he can create, dish, make good decisions, play excellent team defense, steal and run the break. The only thing he can't do well is shoot from long range, which, however, is not much of a problem since he can simply penetrate in a little closer and make the shot. I don't like his dreds or his injuries. Otherwise, I'm sold.

- I didn't see Granger take a bad shot. He just bricked. Speaking of being sold, I'm not yet sold on Granger being a first or second offensive option. He can spot up but I don't see him creating all that well.

- It was too early to tell if Diener is a defensive liability. He didn't seem to be last night, but I still can't tell. I also can't tell--besides one nice 3 shot -- if he is an offensive asset.

- Ike didn't look very good. Too early though.

- Murphy and Dun's defense--as well as Harrison's and Ike's and most everyone else--seemed decent. Basically, every shot was contested, even if at the last instant, and generally no one got inside for easy baskets. Compared to last year, it looked pretty dang good.


I would say the most impressive part of the evening was watching the team get the ball past half court in three seconds. They said they would, and they did--at least in the first 20 minutes, when they soared ahead. It started to lag somewhat after that.

But it was a beautiful thing to watch. Tins seems very, very comfortable and able in this role. Marquis and Dun as well, moreso than the two backup PGs.

The second impressive thing was the motion in the offense. Slick kept talking about "backpicking." It created a lot of opportunities inside. This looked so different from last year where we walked the ball up the court, crossing mid court in about 7 seconds, not three, then starting an offense where we try to dump it inside with no picking while four guys stand around the arc.

I'm encouraged.