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Game #9 Pacers vs Pistons

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  • Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post

    Because he is clearly a C. He's essentially producing the same numbers as Drummond tonight and Drummond's numbers are down compared to his average. HIs assists are up because he's not trying to score on Domas. Domas is obviously a C.
    His assists are up because Detroit was playing 4 out. Detroit was playing without Reggie Jackson and Derrick Rose tonight. These two are Detroit's primary ball-handlers and the ones who drive to the teeth of the defense most often. Just to make this point clear, Derrick Rose is averaging 14.8 field goals per game this season. Only 0.6 of them are 3s. The remaining 14.2 field goals are 2-point shots -> https://www.basketball-reference.com.../rosede01.html

    The only player that played tonight for Detroit and likes to drive to the rim was Bruce Brown. Everyone else was a shooter. Markieff Morris? 5 of his 10 shots were 3s. Tony Snell? 8 of his 10 shots were 3s. Kennard? 9 of his 21 shots were 3s and 9 other shots were mid-range jumpers. He only attempted 3 shots in the restricted area -> https://stats.nba.com/game/002190011...t/?vtm=1628379

    Langston Galloway? 6 of his 11 shots were 3s. Mykhailiuk? 2 of his 4 shots were 3s. Maker and Wood are also bigs that can stretch the floor but they didn't play or shoot a lot tonight.

    Most of Drummond's 8 assists were on the short roll tonight. He did what Domas does most nights for us. He screened for a guard, rolled hard to the rim, received the pass and when we send out a help defender to him, he found the open shooter in the perimeter.
    People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

    Originally posted by IrishPacer
    Empty vessels make the most noise.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post

      I really need to comment on this. Playing him at C emphasizes many of his strengths. While in the middle on offense he can pass more easily to anyone on the perimeter. He plays the Pick and Roll like he was born to do it. Let's not talk about offense because he so good. On defense as a C he is around the basket and more likely to rebound the basketball. Look at this tear he's been on for the last 3 games. He can also throw the ball out for a fast break. He's got really good hands to strip the ball. He plays solid post defense. He's much stronger than Myles holding position in the paint not just against the opposing C but other players who come in there. I believe he has better court awareness and knows where to be on the floor. He also kept the fouls down tonite so he can do that when needed.. Even though Myles is better at blocking shots, Myles often blocks a shot and the offensive player recovers and drives through him. Drummond did that. So that shot-blocking he brings is over-rated somewhat. Sure, it's one thing. It's not enough IMO. He isn't powerful enough to stop LeBron James at the rim, for example, so it's a good feature of Myles' game but only one.
      Myles shoud be shopped ASAP...we have Goga as Domas back up...Myles has no place anymore.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by pimpis zajoba View Post

        Myles shoud be shopped ASAP...we have Goga as Domas back up...Myles has no place anymore.
        I would like to see Goga make Myles expendable. That's more a future conversation. Of course, anyone is tradeable on this team except the President.
        Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pimpis zajoba View Post

          He used to pick up fouls,he was bad FT shooter, NOT ANYMORE...he works very hard to improve himself, he is the future.
          Myles won't get better, he is who he is ,soft..slow in his head...moves like baby girrafe...very good trade asset ...if we want to be the best we can be...we need to trade him.
          1) Working hard won't make Domas' arms any longer. It's a physical limitation that one cannot overcome. Domas simply doesn't have the length to be a good rim protector in this league. He does have the mobility and foot speed to be a good defender at the PF spot, though.

          2) I've been saying that Domas is the future long before you joined this forum. I simply believe that his future is at PF because that's the position that hides his sole weakness.
          People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

          Originally posted by IrishPacer
          Empty vessels make the most noise.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post

            While in the middle on offense he can pass more easily to anyone on the perimeter. He plays the Pick and Roll like he was born to do it.
            Let me clarify something. When I say that "X is a PF, a SF, a C or whatever" I'm talking about their defensive position. What's the old adage? You are what you can defend.

            Offensively, Domas should absolutely be the one closest to the basket. He should absolutely be the one that sets the screen up top. He should absolutely be the one that is involved in the PnR and in the DHOs.

            A number of us in here have been harping on this very thing for more than a year now. Just because Domas starts at PF, it doesn't mean that he isn't the C offensively. He absolutely is. You can't cross-match the positions. Everyone is doing it. Take these last two games as an example. Aaron Holiday has started these last two games. Offensively, he is playing the SG spot. Defensively, though, he is the one chasing around the opponent PG. He is our PG on defense and our SG on offense. Similarly, Domas should be our PF on defense and our C on offense. It's not a difficult concept or something that our team doesn't already do.

            Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
            On defense as a C he is around the basket and more likely to rebound the basketball. Look at this tear he's been on for the last 3 games.
            Domas grabbed 13 boards in the first game of the season, 5 in the second game of the season and 14 in the third game of the season. He played poorly in that second game (first game against Cleveland where both Domas and Myles were bad) but he clearly had no issue grabbing a ton of boards in the other two games. Domas is a great rebounder. Putting him at PF won't make him grab less rebounds. He'll still comfortably grab around 12 boards per game.

            Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
            He can also throw the ball out for a fast break.
            Which he can do regardless of whether he's the PF or the C.

            Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
            He's got really good hands to strip the ball.
            Which he can do regardless of whether he's the PF or the C.

            Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
            He plays solid post defense.
            Which doesn't matter in today's game as much as rim protection does. Not a lot of bigs specialize in post scoring anymore. On the other hand, every NBA guard worth his salt can drive to the rim which is why teams prioritize rim protection.
            People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

            Originally posted by IrishPacer
            Empty vessels make the most noise.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

              Let me clarify something. When I say that "X is a PF, a SF, a C or whatever" I'm talking about their defensive position. What's the old adage? You are what you can defend.

              Offensively, Domas should absolutely be the one closest to the basket. He should absolutely be the one that sets the screen up top. He should absolutely be the one that is involved in the PnR and in the DHOs.

              A number of us in here have been harping on this very thing for more than a year now. Just because Domas starts at PF, it doesn't mean that he isn't the C offensively. He absolutely is. You can't cross-match the positions. Everyone is doing it. Take these last two games as an example. Aaron Holiday has started these last two games. Offensively, he is playing the SG spot. Defensively, though, he is the one chasing around the opponent PG. He is our PG on defense and our SG on offense. Similarly, Domas should be our PF on defense and our C on offense. It's not a difficult concept or something that our team doesn't already do.



              Domas grabbed 13 boards in the first game of the season, 5 in the second game of the season and 14 in the third game of the season. He played poorly in that second game (first game against Cleveland where both Domas and Myles were bad) but he clearly had no issue grabbing a ton of boards in the other two games. Domas is a great rebounder. Putting him at PF won't make him grab less rebounds. He'll still comfortably grab around 12 boards per game.



              Which he can do regardless of whether he's the PF or the C.



              Which he can do regardless of whether he's the PF or the C.



              Which doesn't matter in today's game as much as rim protection does. Not a lot of bigs specialize in post scoring anymore. On the other hand, every NBA guard worth his salt can drive to the rim which is why teams prioritize rim protection.
              You need to look at his defensive rebounds. He had eight in the first game and he’s been in double figures the last three games. He clearly rebounds better defensively when he is the center and that only makes sense. Since he would get the ball more often playing defense in the middle he would be able to pass out for fast breaks more often. Stripping the ball is far more common when players are close together in the paint. Also I think you’re under estimating the importance of post defense. That is a basic must have in the game.
              Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post

                You need to look at his defensive rebounds. He had eight in the first game and he's been in double figures the last three games. He clearly rebounds better defensively when he is the center and that only makes sense. Since he would get the ball more often playing defense in the middle he would be able to pass out for fast breaks more often. Stripping the ball is far more common when players are close together in the paint. Also I think you're under estimating the importance of post defense. That is a basic must have in the game.
                1) Domas grabbed 10 defensive rebounds in the third game. He played PF in that game. Domas is going to rebound, no matter if he's the PF or C.

                2) You're underestimating the importance of rim protection. It is far more common that a team's C needs to defend the rim than it is for that same player to have his defend his personal opponent in the post one-on-one. Not a lot of current NBA Centers are good at scoring in the post. They just aren't. This isn't the way the NBA is played right now. On the other hand, guards and forwards will always drive to the rim. NBA rules give them the incentive to drive as often as they can. Drives are a lot more common than post-ups in this league and that's just a fact. Let's look at some data.

                NBA.com's team tracking data. This is the amount of drives per game for NBA teams -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

                As you can see in the link above, the amount of drives per game ranges from 58.3 (the Nets have the most drives per game) to 30.5 per game (the Lakers have the least drives per game).

                This is the amount of field goal attempts that teams generate through the above drives -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/drives/?...RIVE_FGA&dir=1

                They range from 30 field goal attempts (the Nets, once again) to 13.4 (the Lakers once again).

                Now, let's take a look at the same team tracking data, only that this team we'll look at post-ups. This is the amount of post-ups per game for NBA teams -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/tracking..._TOUCHES&dir=1

                Post-ups range from 18 per game (the Sixers) to 0.9 per game (the Nets).

                This is the amount of field goal attempts that are generated by these post-ups -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/tracking...OUCH_FGA&dir=1

                They range from 9.5 field goal attempts (the Sixers) to 0.1 attempts (the Nets).

                As you can clearly see, there's a massive difference between the two. A team is about 3 times more likely to have to face a drive than they are to have to face a post-up. That's why teams look for rim protectors. Drives are ubiquitous. Post-ups aren't.
                People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                Empty vessels make the most noise.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

                  1) Domas grabbed 10 defensive rebounds in the third game. He played PF in that game. Domas is going to rebound, no matter if he's the PF or C.

                  2) You're underestimating the importance of rim protection. It is far more common that a team's C needs to defend the rim than it is for that same player to have his defend his personal opponent in the post one-on-one. Not a lot of current NBA Centers are good at scoring in the post. They just aren't. This isn't the way the NBA is played right now. On the other hand, guards and forwards will always drive to the rim. NBA rules give them the incentive to drive as often as they can. Drives are a lot more common than post-ups in this league and that's just a fact. Let's look at some data.

                  NBA.com's team tracking data. This is the amount of drives per game for NBA teams -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/drives/?sort=DRIVES&dir=1

                  As you can see in the link above, the amount of drives per game ranges from 58.3 (the Nets have the most drives per game) to 30.5 per game (the Lakers have the least drives per game).

                  This is the amount of field goal attempts that teams generate through the above drives -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/drives/?...RIVE_FGA&dir=1

                  They range from 30 field goal attempts (the Nets, once again) to 13.4 (the Lakers once again).

                  Now, let's take a look at the same team tracking data, only that this team we'll look at post-ups. This is the amount of post-ups per game for NBA teams -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/tracking..._TOUCHES&dir=1

                  Post-ups range from 18 per game (the Sixers) to 0.9 per game (the Nets).

                  This is the amount of field goal attempts that are generated by these post-ups -> https://stats.nba.com/teams/tracking...OUCH_FGA&dir=1

                  They range from 9.5 field goal attempts (the Sixers) to 0.1 attempts (the Nets).

                  As you can clearly see, there's a massive difference between the two. A team is about 3 times more likely to have to face a drive than they are to have to face a post-up. That's why teams look for rim protectors. Drives are ubiquitous. Post-ups aren't.
                  1) Yes, but he grabbed 40% more in a game I can cherry pick...and 30% more in another one where he spent more time at C. Goga didn't play nearly 40 minutes at C like Myles...so you can't say Domas is just playing PF nearly as much in games with Goga.....just catching you before you go there next.

                  2) I do understand it and respect its high value. It's the only thing keeping Myles in the conversation. I've explained that with him it's overrated. But rim protection is actually why I am hoping that Goga, who is more well rounded than either Domas or Myles, eventually becomes our C. Still, Domas (along with the team defense) has to show he cannot manage that aspect of the game adequately before I would agree with you. If it were to fail and we're not talking one play here or there, I would come around to your view. It's just a matter of "the big picture" though with me and other factors. Rim protection isn't the only aspect of the game and there are a lot of missing pieces for Myles that subtract away that advantage..

                  ...also, to the rest of you post. You are laser focused on rim protection vs post ups. There is a whole lot more going on.

                  With that said, I do like Myles' three point game. I see them working OK on offense but Myles still lacks the natural instincts to move the ball like most of the players. That is a big drawback for him on offense. There are times where he just makes a crazy pass because he's hurrying and because he's thinking too much. He may just not have that aspect of the game in his toolbox and it's not easy to learn. People are born with it. It's a huge, huge deal if you want to ever contend with Myles being a key part of the team.
                  Last edited by BlueNGold; 11-09-2019, 10:36 AM.
                  Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                  Comment


                  • To put it in simple terms, in the 4 games Myles and Domas played together, Domas averaged 7 defensive boards. In the 3 games Domas didn't play with Myles, he averaged 12.3 boards.

                    Do the math. That is a difference of 75%.
                    Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                      1) Yes, but he grabbed 40% more in a game I can cherry pick...
                      And that's exactly because you are cherry picking. We are talking about using 2 and 3 game sample sizes. And to prove what point exactly?

                      What difference does it make whether Domas grabs 10 or 14 defensive rebounds? What matters is how many defensive rebounds we grab as a team, not individual numbers.


                      Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                      2) I do understand it and respect its high value. It's the only thing keeping Myles in the conversation. I've explained that with him it's overrated. But rim protection is actually why I am hoping that Goga, who is more well rounded than either Domas or Myles, eventually becomes our C. Still, Domas (along with the team defense) has to show he cannot manage that aspect of the game adequately before I would agree with you. If it were to fail and we're not talking one play here or there, I would come around to your view. It's just a matter of "the big picture" though with me and other factors. Rim protection isn't the only aspect of the game and there are a lot of missing pieces for Myles that subtract away that advantage..

                      ...also, to the rest of you post. You are laser focused on rim protection vs post ups. There is a whole lot more going on.

                      With that said, I do like Myles' three point game. I see them working OK on offense but Myles still lacks the natural instincts to move the ball like most of the players. That is a big drawback for him on offense. There are times where he just makes a crazy pass because he's hurrying and because he's thinking too much. He may just not have that aspect of the game in his toolbox and it's not easy to learn. People are born with it. It's a huge, huge deal if you want to ever contend with Myles being a key part of the team.
                      I'm laser focused on rim protection because it is the single most important attribute that a C can have in today's game. If your starting Center can't protect the rim then you won't go far into the post-season. The opponent will exploit that fact in a 7-game series and just drive relentlessly, forcing you to foul them repeatedly. LeBron's teams always had a Center that could protect the rim. Bosh was that rim protector for the Heat (along with the Birdman). Tristan Thompson was that rim protector with Cleveland. Bogut was the rim protector for GSW in their first title run and Draymond could also protect the rim when Bogut sat (Draymond may be 6'7 but he does have a 7'1 wingspan). When Durant went to GSW, he also assumed some rim protecting duties along with Draymond. Yes, Durant isn't a C but he is at least 6'11 with a 7-foot plus wingspan and along with Draymond, they got the job done. The Raptors last year had both Marc Gasol and Serge Ibaka, two players capable of protecting the rim.

                      When Goga is in his 2nd or 3rd year and has accumulated enough NBA experience to be respected by the refs then I'm 100% fine with exploring trade options for Myles. You can't start all 3 of Myles, Domas and Goga so one them has to be traded away for a wing. So, when it's time to make that decision, you make that decision. We just don't have to make that decision right now. We need Goga to accumulate a bit more experience first because we do that.
                      People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                      Originally posted by IrishPacer
                      Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                      • Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

                        And that's exactly because you are cherry picking. We are talking about using 2 and 3 game sample sizes. And to prove what point exactly?

                        What difference does it make whether Domas grabs 10 or 14 defensive rebounds? What matters is how many defensive rebounds we grab as a team, not individual numbers.




                        I'm laser focused on rim protection because it is the single most important attribute that a C can have in today's game. If your starting Center can't protect the rim then you won't go far into the post-season. The opponent will exploit that fact in a 7-game series and just drive relentlessly, forcing you to foul them repeatedly. LeBron's teams always had a Center that could protect the rim. Bosh was that rim protector for the Heat (along with the Birdman). Tristan Thompson was that rim protector with Cleveland. Bogut was the rim protector for GSW in their first title run and Draymond could also protect the rim when Bogut sat (Draymond may be 6'7 but he does have a 7'1 wingspan). When Durant went to GSW, he also assumed some rim protecting duties along with Draymond. Yes, Durant isn't a C but he is at least 6'11 with a 7-foot plus wingspan and along with Draymond, they got the job done. The Raptors last year had both Marc Gasol and Serge Ibaka, two players capable of protecting the rim.

                        When Goga is in his 2nd or 3rd year and has accumulated enough NBA experience to be respected by the refs then I'm 100% fine with exploring trade options for Myles. You can't start all 3 of Myles, Domas and Goga so one them has to be traded away for a wing. So, when it's time to make that decision, you make that decision. We just don't have to make that decision right now. We need Goga to accumulate a bit more experience first because we do that.
                        At least everyone agrees that it is Myles who should be traded when time comes...so we moved from "who" and "if" to "when"...it's a progress ...we need to get something good in return.

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                        • Originally posted by pimpis zajoba View Post

                          At least everyone agrees that it is Myles who should be traded when time comes...so we moved from "who" and "if" to "when"...it's a progress ...we need to get something good in return.
                          That's because Goga is proving that he can combine the best attributes of both Myles and Domas. If Goga wasn't in the picture then Myles should never be traded. Domas needs to play next to a rim protector. It's the best situation both for him and for his team. I don't care if that rim protector is Myles, Goga or Santa Claus. All I care is that there is someone next to Domas who can do the one thing that Domas isn't physically able to do. Protect the rim.
                          People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                          Originally posted by IrishPacer
                          Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                          • Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

                            That's because Goga is proving that he can combine the best attributes of both Myles and Domas. If Goga wasn't in the picture then Myles should never be traded. Domas needs to play next to a rim protector. It's the best situation both for him and for his team. I don't care if that rim protector is Myles, Goga or Santa Claus. All I care is that there is someone next to Domas who can do the one thing that Domas isn't physically able to do. Protect the rim.
                            Rim protection is importan unless rim protector is a baby giraffe...yes Goga is the future, yes Myles is soft and expendable...and no Santa is too fat as a rim protector ...is like having Jokic protecting the rim...wait...Jokic is not a rim protector...he is point C...and so is Domas...wait...maybe just maybe...rim protection by baby giraffe is overrated..i don't know....i could be wrong.

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                            • Originally posted by pimpis zajoba View Post

                              Rim protection is importan unless rim protector is a baby giraffe...yes Goga is the future, yes Myles is soft and expendable...and no Santa is too fat as a rim protector ...is like having Jokic protecting the rim...wait...Jokic is not a rim protector...he is point C...and so is Domas...wait...maybe just maybe...rim protection by baby giraffe is overrated..i don't know....i could be wrong.
                              Yes, Jokić is not much of a rim protector. That's exactly why the Nuggets lost in the second round last year. They lost to Portland, a team that they should have beat. Lillard didn't even shoot well from 3 in that series (28.8%). And yet both he and McCollum averaged over 25 PPG because they could drive in the paint and score. Why? Because as you said, Jokić is not a rim protector.
                              People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                              Originally posted by IrishPacer
                              Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                              • Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

                                Yes, Jokić is not much of a rim protector. That's exactly why the Nuggets lost in the second round last year. They lost to Portland, a team that they should have beat. Lillard didn't even shoot well from 3 in that series (28.8%). And yet both he and McCollum averaged over 25 PPG because they could drive in the paint and score. Why? Because as you said, Jokić is not a rim protector.
                                Of course... how stupid of me...Jokic was not a rim protector and they lost to Portland who had an awesome rim protector...hmmm...what was his name?...hmm... oh yeah ...Enes Kanter...rim protecting savant...

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