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Odd Thoughts: Foster children

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Foster children

    Despite my title I am not going to spend an inordinate amount of time beating the referee's to death. Suffice it to say that they treated Devonte Graham as though he were Allen Iverson. That is to say Allen would run into you fully initiating the contact, knock you off of your spot, fall to the ground and the foul was on you. Everybody is going to complain about that last play but the truth is even under review I have a feeling it would not have been overturned because it was a close call. However where I am throwing a fit was the 6th foul on T.J. Leaf. IMO that particular call was crap. But what are you going to do?

    Look I'll say this, mostly complaining about officials is a waste of time, more often than not they are right. But there are some games where you do have to question 42 free throws to 7.

    That's it, that's all we are going to talk about it here.

    Because even with the refereeing, even being super short handed, you still only lost by a bucket in OT. If we didn't have to play tomorrow night it wouldn't be so bad, but we do. You give me Domantas Sabonis in this game and we win by 6 or more.

    So knowing we were short handed and all of our big men fouled out I want to say that as bad as I hate to be this way but I have to throw this loss at the feet of Nate McMillan. I understand all of the adversity and if we had just been blown out I wouldn't think two thoughts about it. However not only were were not getting blown out, we were dog stomping them. Then two things happened. They inserted Bismack Biyombo and we put in our entire bench and did not make a change until I believe we had blown a 19 point lead and might have had a 2 or 3 point lead. I know people have to rest, I get that. But having Brogdon, Lamb & Warren all sitting while we could not score was just miserable to watch. But again I know we have a back to back so I can forgive that. What is unforgivable to me is that at the end of regulation and for the final 2-3 min of overtime our offense consisted of spread out hero ball with virtually zero screens or off the ball movement. Now if you have Kobe Bryant in his prime you can get by with that. Believe me I love Brogdon and he can certainly do a lot but by that time they were doubling him and using Bitadze's guy to do it. Thus we had our poor rookie getting caught 25 feet from the basket and it ended often about how you would think it would. But hey to Nate's credit he did try and run Lamb in this offense (if you can call it that) and tragically Aaron Holiday once in it leading to a turn over. Nate just has not shown an ability to run any type of coherent offense when it seems to matter.

    Let's just do grades as I don't have ton of time.

    T.J. Warren: A could have been an A+ but for some reason took two of the worst shots I've ever seen at the end and did not even come close with either. However other than that all night long he was just lighting them up and they had no answer for him. Nate McMillan was his best defender when he took him out while he was on fire and didn't bring him back in till momentum swung and he didn't score in the 4th quarter till somewhere between the 5-6 min mark.

    JaKarr Sampson: B+ He is being graded based on expectations. Dude isn't supposed to be a starter and had done pretty much what he could while he was in there. Got abused by Biyombo but there absolutely is a strength issue there. Solid defense and was an active body. For where he played and where he should have played I'd say this is about right.

    Goga Bitadze: A Three games is not a season but I am now pretty much on board blowing the whistle for the Goga train. Dude is for real and I have a feeling if he can stay healthy that in 4 -5 year his name is going to be said as one of the better centers in the NBA. I don't know where at but I'm guessing top 15 for sure if not higher. You can't move him, he is thick and strong already. Once he gets to working with the pro strength trainers he is going to be a beast. Is he really only 20? For as bad as they have done with Leaf and Holiday they may really have struck gold here. I'll say this, he's my type of player and I'll just leave it at that.

    Jeremy Lamb: A This guy is a gem. He drops 18 points like its nothing and he is very active on both sides of the floor. Typically he has rebounded very well for us, tonight he was just okay at it. However when we needed baskets at the end of the game Jeremy is the one who came up big when we needed him.

    Malcolm Brogodon: A- Had real trouble tonight with double teams and pressure, didn't have the best shot selection down at the end and got beat off of the dribble more than once. That being said he still dropped 31 and 8 on them and if he were allowed to knock people off of their spot he could have had 40 something.

    Justin Holiday: B solid unspectacular play, big defensive stand where he drew a charge. However a horrible offensive execution in the last two min where he ended up shooting a wide open shot from about 10 off of the side of the board. Still, I think he is a very valuable asset to have and about crapped every time Nate subbed him out for his brother in OT.

    T.J. McConnell: D Good effort, however got played like a Stradivarius by Graham during their comeback. What is is about him that does not allow him to shoot? I mean how do you even be a guard in today's NBA and not have any form of outside shot? Its so bad that Jakaar Sampson has more three point shots in this game than T.J. has all season. Scrappy player but just could not get the offense to run at all tonight.

    Aaron Holiday: C- Probably to high for him but for whatever reason Nate decided that during crunch time tonight he would run Aaron Holiday against Graham and it went about as well as you would expect. Hey, he did at least hit a couple of three's tonight. I do see though that he is making more of an effort to move the ball on occasion thus the 4 assists.

    T.J. Leaf: D- Pathetic. Now the reason he didn't get an F is because of the aforementioned foul. But beyond that just a total waste of space. However I am going to take this opportunity to complain about Nate again here. In the OT we were running our spread offense (because it was working so well) and we had Leaf positioned on the corner three in front of the Hornets bench. I think it was Lamb but it could have been Brogodon was dribbling towards the middle and Biyombo was all eyes on the ball. He had no more of an idea of where Leaf was than what Holiday knows what a good shot is. All Leaf would have had to do was cut to the rim and he would have had an uncontested dunk/layup or at worst a foul. But he just stood there. Since nobody was moving off of the ball I can only assume that this is Nate's idea. It's a horrible horrible idea.

    Doug McDermott: D I wish I would grade by the half because he would probably have gotten a solid C for the first half but he would have gotten and F for the second half. Lost on defense, little to no help on the boards and I believe all of his points came in the first half. He had a stretch of about 2 and 1/2 games where even I had to admit he wasn't the useless vomit sock that I know him to be. But in the second half tonight we were all treated to pure McSuckets.

    Good effort, circumstances had a lot to do with this but in the end this is going to be another game at the end of the season that if we are struggling for position we are going to look back and regret this game.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
    • 3 likes
  • #2
    I have not been this pleased in years with off season acquisitions. Brogdon is already the best PG the Pacers have ever had...or he's at least right there. Goga has the potential to be the best C the Pacers have ever had. He is obviously already a great backup. These guys are winning type players along the lines of DWest era players.
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    • #3
      Honestly. I think Doug could get a Triple Triple and you would only give him a C+. And yes I know what I am saying a triple triple as in 100 points, 100 rebs and 100 assists - (no jokes - not for the whole season, but in 1 game)

      I am not convinced the last call would have been overturned even if we had a timeout and if it was reviewed. We'll see in the two minute report.

      I mentioned in a post yesterday that teams are going to start focusing their entire defense on stopping Brogdon. And last night we saw one version of it. They put a bigger defender on him who did a really good job and they brought double teams whenever they could, it worked for the most part. Pacers only scored 21 points in the 4th. We will see more of this. Coaches around the league are noticing what Brog is doing and they will come up with creative ways of controlling him
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      • #4
        It's just so unfortunate that we weren't able to win this one. It would have been a great win, especially given the circumstances.

        The 3 healthy starters (Brogdon, Lamb, Warren) were amazing. Brogdon had 15/7 at the half and I was sure that he was on his way to another double-double. He didn't get it because the Hornets made a concerted effort to take the ball away from his hands but he did get a 31/8/5 line. I can't wait until Dipo is back and he plays next to Brogdon. I don't think that I've ever seen a Pacer backcourt duo as good as this one projects to be. It's gonna be awesome and I just hope that both are healthy.

        Lamb is a winner. I know that this is ironic to say after a loss but that's the impression I've got from him in those early games. He is able to contribute even if he is shot isn't falling and tonight he even made some big buckets down the stretch despite being cold earlier in the game.

        TJ Warren is a scorer. It's obvious that David West was his mentor. Warren, much like David, primarily thrives in the mid-range. Are the shots he is taking what I would consider great shots? Not necessarily. He is off balance quite a lot. But hey, if he can consistently make these shots (and he can, that's how he has been scoring throughout his career) then I'm not going to knock him for it. If it works for him, so be it.

        All in all, I'm very pleased by these 3. I think that the team added 3 very good pieces this summer.

        Goga continues to make the most out of his chance. His shot wasn't on tonight. He missed all of his jumpers. That didn't stop him from being productive, though. He grabbed 11 boards, blocked 4 shots and dished out 4 assists. Yes, he fouled out in 32 minutes. He is very foul-prone right now but that's not surprising for a rookie big. 3 of his 6 fouls came in loose ball situations and 1 of them was a (bad, in my opinion) call on a moving pick. So, only 2 of his fouls occurred when he was actually playing defense. Personally, I see that as a plus. Right now he is a bit over-aggressive when it comes to going after offensive boards which is what gets him in trouble with those loose ball fouls. But that's alright. Fouling because you were aggressive is something I can accept from a rookie. Experience can fix this.

        What I love is that Goga has been able to block 4 shots in all 3 of the games where he got good minutes. I knew that he was a rim protector but seeing him be able to do that this early in his career is very encouraging. We need to keep using Goga because he can make our lives a lot easier.

        Sampson has my respect. He is the 15th man of the team who got in through a camp invite. He didn't expect to be playing, let alone starting, that early into the season. And yet here we are. He is starting due to the injuries and I'm not dreading every second he's on the court (like you'd usually do if your team's 15th man was forced to play). He is capable of doing his job and I don't think that there's anything more you could ask from your 15th man.

        The Holiday brothers did well, imo. Justin Holiday is a very solid player (I still believe that he shouldn't play PF when against Detroit but whatever) and I think that Aaron played with a lot of energy tonight. Yeah, Aaron does tend to shoot too much but I feel that he played very hard on the defensive end and he did his best against Devonte' Graham. It didn't work out in the end but I do feel that he did more than McConnell.

        Speaking of McConnell, he struggled tonight. On both ends of the court. It happens. I believe that he has played well so far overall so I can let a bad game slide.

        Doug hit a couple of 3s. That's mostly it. He simply doesn't impact the game as much as I'd like.

        Leaf was bad. It's unfortunate for him since he was coming off a great game but he was just bad tonight.

        PS: I want to give credit to three Charlotte players. Devonte' Graham, Cody Martin and Bismack Biyombo. The Hornets aren't winning the game without these 3. Graham carried the scoring load, Cody Martin denied Malcolm Brogdon as much as was possible and severely impacted the efficiency of our offense and Bismack Biyombo took advantage of our injuries and foul trouble to grab necessary offensive boards.
        Last edited by Nuntius; 11-06-2019, 07:53 AM.
        Originally posted by IrishPacer
        Empty vessels make the most noise.
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        • #5
          I felt a little bad for Leaf. I think four of his fouls were total BS phantom calls. When he fouled out I remember thinking that they should investigate for betting irregularities to see if there were relatively large sums of money bet on Leaf fouling out. No one would really care, you'd get great odds, and who will investigate three or four phantom calls against some scrub big?
          Danger Zone
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          • #6
            What I don't like is that they were doubling Brogdon so far from the basket that, after he passed out of it to Goga, we had a temporary 4 on 3 advantage and we never exploited that. Goga would just wait to hand it off to Brogdon, letting Biyombo and Martin recover to their respective assignments. That strategy was only possible with Goga in the game. Myles and Domas would've taken advantage of the open floor in front of them.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by the_real_lg33 View Post
              What I don't like is that they were doubling Brogdon so far from the basket that, after he passed out of it to Goga, we had a temporary 4 on 3 advantage and we never exploited that. Goga would just wait to hand it off to Brogdon, letting Biyombo and Martin recover to their respective assignments. That strategy was only possible with Goga in the game. Myles and Domas would've taken advantage of the open floor in front of them.
              I was also frustrated by this. Is Goga not capable of dribbling the basketball? He had a clear lane to the rim, 2 dribbles and he was there and could have dunked over anybody who tried to guard him. I didn't understand that, is he really that timid?
              *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jon Theodore View Post

                I was also frustrated by this. Is Goga not capable of dribbling the basketball? He had a clear lane to the rim, 2 dribbles and he was there and could have dunked over anybody who tried to guard him. I didn't understand that, is he really that timid?
                Just a case of being inexperienced with our system and not knowing where to be on the floor. He might be thinking pick and pop while Malcolm might be thinking roll. He’ll get there. I think that him being in the spotlight with the starters is going to do wonders for his confidence when he goes back to the bench (and hopefully gets ample playing time.)
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                • #9
                  I'm sure sometime in his 37th season as a head coach Nate will finally learn how to address hard doubles on his best playmaker late in games.

                  Going to send him 100 hours of back screens on VHS for Christmas.


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                  • #10
                    Losing this game sucks, but this team has nothing to fret about. Brogdon isn't even playing his best ball yet, he's a career 40% 3 point shooter who is currently shooting 31%, once that rounds back to normalcy the Pacers will be an extremely difficult team to deal with. Brogdon's emergence also means that Vic can slowly work back in.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rogco View Post
                      I felt a little bad for Leaf. I think four of his fouls were total BS phantom calls. When he fouled out I remember thinking that they should investigate for betting irregularities to see if there were relatively large sums of money bet on Leaf fouling out. No one would really care, you'd get great odds, and who will investigate three or four phantom calls against some scrub big?
                      Yea I watched the highlights and in the 1st half where they called an And-1 on Leaf, he just stood there and stared at the ref in disbelief. I feel for him too.
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                      • #12
                        Peck, excellent summary of Warren and Lamb. But a couple of additions: not only did Warren chuck a couple of bad shots down the stretch, he also missed a very important free throw. Lamb, who you note didn't rebound as well as usual, snagged a very important rebound in the clutch. He also scored in the clutch. Viva la contrast in the clutch between Warren and Lamb.

                        P. S. Aaron Holiday's defense was horrible. He runs alongside and thinks he's playing defense. He's quick enough to get in front of a drive to the hoop but he never does. I see low IQ.
                        "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                        • #13
                          The way to beat the Pacers is to take the ball out of Brogdon's hands. If you can stop him, you have pretty much one the game.

                          Put in a big physical big. We can't stop them. Goga seems to do okay, but he will foul out.

                          Have a small, quick guard. We don't have anyone that can keep up with them.

                          Now when Vic gets back, that will make it tough to stop Brogdon. You will have to decide who to focus on. Vic also will have a chance to keep up with the small, quick guards. Obviously not when he first gets back, but eventually he should be able to do it, although probably not until next season.

                          With a healthy Myles and Domas, at least we will have 3 bodies to throw at a physical Center. We are still going to struggle, but I have high hopes for Goga. He looks strong already and he is only 20 years old.

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                          • #14
                            My thoughts from this game are that we would have won if we had either Turner or Sabonis playing. Is it only me or does anyone feel that Nate was out coached by James Borrego? I don't know much about Borrego, but I see that he is from the Popovich coaching tree. Sampson had 2 costly fouls at the end of the game that I would hope Myles and Sabonis would not make the same mistake. That foul by Sampson with 2 seconds left in OT was definitely a foul. It could have easily been prevented by just keeping his hands up.

                            I feel like Nate was out coached because he could not adjust to Graham's quickness and Biyambo's physicality. Once Graham started going off I don't understand why Nate didn't double him or trap him off the pick and roll. Maybe he felt like Goga was not quick enough to get out there and trap. We should have been forcing it out of his hand and then turn Biyambo into the playmaker off the pick and roll. Biyambo can't shoot free throws so maybe we would have to hack him a few times if there is an open lane. We had no idea what to do on offense at the end of the game. Lamb is a capable scorer, but he's not an Iso scorer. He got lucky on a few spin shots, but Oladipo is the only person on this team that is a capable ISO ball scorer. Maybe McConnell should have been in the game instead of Aaron Holiday so we could have had another PG that could help run the offense when Brogdon was being doubled. Nate has to make better adjustments

                            The refs were horrible. When TJ leaf picked up his 6 foul that was barely any contact.
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                            • #15
                              The only thing worse than the refs and lack of any set offense in crunch time had to be listening to the Charlotte Broadcast team talk about how "fairly/evenly" reffed the game was after that last call. Late-*** whistle on a 50/50 offensive/defensive foul that 90% of the time is a 'play on' at the end of a game.
                              "I mean, you'd walk into our dressing room and run into Mel Daniels holding a .45 -- it makes you wonder."

                              Bob Netolicky
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