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Rule #1

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Odd Thoughts: DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETroit BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAsketBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETroit BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAsketBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL

    Before we begin, yes due to no demand at all I'm bringing these out of retirement. As is always the case these will be all over the place. I don't know if I will do every game or not but here goes nothing.

    All hail Andre Drummond our lord and master.

    Seriously folks at some point in time you just have to sit back and admire that game. I've been to literally hundreds of Pacers games over the years and I've seen all of the big name stars. I've seen both Jordan and James so many times that each have lost meaning to me and not once have I ever seen either of those players put up numbers like Drummond did tonight vs us that I can remember. LeBron has had some close games I think and M.J. just beat us down so hard usually that he didn't end up playing long enough to get those numbers.

    32 points 23 rebounds and 5 blocks, ARE YOU KIDDING ME.

    If LeBron James posted that statline tonight it would be the lead story on every sports tv/paper/talk/whatever tomorrow. But because it is Drummond it might make some type of "oh btw" type news.

    I'm trying to check my memory for anytime I've seen these types of stats in person and I can only think of a few and we are talking back in the 90's. I remember Barkley coming here and laying down that type of stat line. I can remember Shaq in the finals having like a 40 -20 game or something close to it. But that's it, that is where my memory ends. Won't say I'm not forgetting some, I am old after all, but this was something to behold. The worst part of it is that he went to the freethrow line and shot it as though he were Steph Curry.

    Sometimes you have to give credit where credit is due. It was not because either Myles or Domas had a bad game, it is because Drummond was just beasting it out there. Kenard & Rose were also pains in the asses but they could not have done what they did without the big man.

    That does not mean that we didn't help their cause.

    If Drummond was the main reason they won then Nate McMillan was probably the second.

    For whatever reason when we had a substantial lead in the 3rd quarter he decided that it was time to play Doug McDermott & Justin Holiday together at the forward spots. Now you tell me which of these two bruisers was the 4 and which was the 3 and I'll be happy to listen. He played these two along with Edmond Sumners & T. J. McCollum with both Sabonis & Turner taking time in the middle. During this time Doug, Justin and Edmond provided you with zero points, McCollum had two and I'm not sure how many the bigs had but it wasn't enough. We went from a double digit lead to nearly double digit deficit and we never recovered. Nate even took a time out when they caught up and I'm thinking ok, great he's going to make changes. Nope out trots the same group and they proceed to turn over the ball and watch while Detroit scored and took the lead (I believe for good).

    Can we just not argue about the Turner/Sabonis thing here? IMO they were about the only thing that did work until the very end and by then we were scrambling just to do anything. To me both did what they needed to do and yes Drummond had a hell of a game but in all honesty they did as well. So I'm not going to engage in any type of comparison because for tonight I thought it worked.

    However we have a real and serious problem on our hands. We have nothing beyond these two in terms of bigs. Letting KOQ walk was a mistake then and it proved out to be one tonight. We have nobody to grab a rebound if either Myles or Domas is not in that game. We have zero physical defense either. Look none of us have a clue about Goga but the one thing we all should have known is who our coach is. The likelihood of him playing a rookie period let alone significant minutes is not real high and hey he may have every reason not to play him. Some of us just bought into the whole "our first rounder is exactly the player we wanted at our pick and he's ready to play" GM speak that we get from about every rookie we ever draft. He may be ready to go or he may be two years away from being two years away, we just don't know.

    But what was obvious in the pre season and frankly painfully obvious tonight is that right now T.J. Leaf is not an NBA ready basketball player and if he signs a contract beyond his rookie deal it might be a surprise. Literally looks lost and outmatched from the moment he walks on the floor. What he lacks in offense he makes up for in defensive ineptitude thus making him just non playable.

    The only player who had a worse night than him was Aaron Holiday, which really should tell us a lot of what we need to know about the drafting of our front office seeing as how our last two first round picks should probably spend the next few weeks, if not months, if not the season, in Ft. Wayne. Aaron had a segment which we will call the trilogy of terrors. He was blocked at the rim on a layup by Drummond, however we recovered the ball only for him to badly miss a wide open three point attempt but once again getting the ball back to once again get it to Aaron to have him air ball a layup. If his game were a horse we would have all been calling it to be put down.

    Sumners on the other hand had a Miley Cyrus intro into the game. In other words he came in like a wrecking ball and disrupted everything causing a wondrous mess of things. He was stealing everything in arms reach of him and he showed a lot of signs of being able to not only score at the rim but distribute as well. In the second half it was all gone and he was part of that God awful lineup that could not score or defend. But I am going to pretend that his first half was the standard for him for the season and if that is the case, he really could develop into a rotational player.

    If you told me right now that T.J. McConnell was going to start at point for us until Victor got back I think I could die happy. When he is on the floor he does things with purpose and he is so scrappy that he is surprisingly effective at defense. I think doing that would let Lamb be able to use his scoring off of the bench and help that anemic mess.

    I think if all of us are being honest we were somewhat disappointed in both T.J. Warren and Jeremy Lambs debuts. Warren had the Doug McDermott effect for me, in other words if he wasn't hitting a shot I forgot he was on the floor because he just literally did nothing else. 1 lousy rebound and let's just say he's got some work to do on the defensive end. Lamb started out horribly from the floor but to his credit he kept fighting all night long and eventually hit some shots.

    Malcolm Brogdon started a little rough but ended the night with a good stat line and it is always nice to have someone who can both draw a foul and hit his foul shots. I still believe teamed up with Victor he will be a stud.

    I'm not going to lie, I was really disappointed and honestly shocked about the results of this game. No offense to Kstat or Shags but honestly before the game started and I looked at the Detroit lineup I actually felt sorry for them and thought this would be a game we could mark up for a win. Man was I ever wrong. I thought their bench was going to a real weak spot for them. Little did I know that they would have two players each that would outscore our entire bench production all by themselves. Now some of that is on the wonderful play of Rose & Kennard but a lot of that was that our entire bench produced 16 points of which I'm fairly confident that 14 of them came in the first half.

    Coming into the season I was not really all that worried about our bench, I was concerned that we didn't have a lot of big man depth but I thought that between Leaf, Bitadze that we could hold a few min. a game.

    I am now officially worried about our bench. It's early for sure and obviously we can come out of this but right now Aaron Holiday & T. J. Leaf are a clown show and not a funny one at that, McDermott is McDermott which means he will hit a couple of shots and that's about it. Justin Holiday did a great impression of Galactus the devour er time and space because that is all he did. Edmond Sumners looked like the only bench player who woke up with the intention of playing and NBA game that night.

    Sigh, I hate that my first time back doing these starts like this. But my Odd thoughts game is as rusty and disjointed as our bench was so it's fitting.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
    • 16 likes
  • #2
    Sumner. Singular. Did you see the game break interview he gave during the telecast? He's a really sweet guy. And I think that's a little bit of his problem. I don't think he's found his inner Kobe yet. He's not yet ready to take what's his and leave the rest for the other players. I think he's polite and likes to share with his teammates. He needs to establish his drive and dish game and make sure he's racking up points and assists, He has the skills, he just needs to execute. I'm not sure who or what is going to help him find his inner kobe. But someone needs to. It may just take Nate telling him to run the Dipo role in the offense. Tell the shooters to establish on the arc and be ready for the dish. And run it and run it and run it again.
    • 1 like

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Strummer View Post
      It may just take Nate telling him to run the Dipo role in the offense. Tell the shooters to establish on the arc and be ready for the dish. And run it and run it and run it again.
      They did some Dipo action for Sumner at times.
      "man, PG has been really good."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Peck View Post
        I'm trying to check my memory for anytime I've seen these types of stats in person and I can only think of a few and we are talking back in the 90's. I remember Barkley coming here and laying down that type of stat line. I can remember Shaq in the finals having like a 40 -20 game or something close to it. But that's it, that is where my memory ends.
        Game 4 of the 2012 Eastern Conference Finals vs. Heat, LeBron had 40 pts, 18 rbs, 9 ast, 2 st, 2 bl. That's the best performance I've seen in person, and Drummond's game is easily a top 5 for me. It's less about the stats and more about the effect that Drummond had on the game. He dominated everything. Kennard was great, and Derrick Rose has looked as good the past two seasons as he has in 6 years. It's really strange to watch.


        There were good games from Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon and McConnell and good halves from Sumner and Warren. Domas played really well defensively, especially on the perimeter, and only had one or two defensive mistakes the whole night.

        Jeremy Lamb makes Brandon Rush look consistent. I thought it in the preseason too, but Lamb's defense is worse than Warren's, mainly because of Lamb's lack of effort, which is atrocious and painful to watch. He needs to be scoring off of the bench to be effective.

        Why on earth have there been comments from our front office in the past year that A. Holiday is a potential all star-caliber player? Are you kidding me?
        Last edited by imawhat; 10-24-2019, 08:11 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by imawhat View Post

          Game 4 of the 2012 Eastern Conference Finals vs. Heat, LeBron had 40 pts, 18 rbs, 9 ast, 2 st, 2 bl. That's the best performance I've seen in person, and Drummond's game is easily a top 5 for me. It's less about the stats and more about the effect that Drummond had on the game. He dominated everything. Kennard was great, and Derrick Rose has looked as good the past two seasons as he has in 6 years. It's really strange to watch.


          There were good games from Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon and McConnell and good halves from Sumner and Warren. Domas played really well defensively, especially on the perimeter, and only had one or two defensive mistakes the whole night.

          Jeremy Lamb makes Brandon Rush look consistent. I thought it in the preseason too, but Lamb's defense is worse than Warren's, mainly because of Lamb's lack of effort, which is atrocious and painful to watch. He needs to be scoring off of the bench to be effective.

          Why on earth have there been comments from our front office in the past year that A. Holiday is a potential all star-caliber player? Are you kidding me?
          Nate said Holiday was the back up pg and he lost that spot quickly. It hurts knowing we could of had Rose or Fultz but chose Tunnel vision Holiday
          • 1 like

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          • #6
            We really miss Thad.
            TJW and Lamb looked really bad. As you all have said, Leaf looked like he is from the JV squad out there. Completely outclassed. Why is he still on the team and in the NBA? I have never seen anything from him that made me think that guy really belongs in the group of the top 500 players on the planet. Cut him and free up a roster spot for a back up scrappy big.
            • 1 like

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              Before we begin, yes due to no demand at all I'm bringing these out of retirement. As is always the case these will be all over the place. I don't know if I will do every game or not but here goes nothing.

              All hail Andre Drummond our lord and master.

              Seriously folks at some point in time you just have to sit back and admire that game. I've been to literally hundreds of Pacers games over the years and I've seen all of the big name stars. I've seen both Jordan and James so many times that each have lost meaning to me and not once have I ever seen either of those players put up numbers like Drummond did tonight vs us that I can remember. LeBron has had some close games I think and M.J. just beat us down so hard usually that he didn't end up playing long enough to get those numbers.

              32 points 23 rebounds and 5 blocks, ARE YOU KIDDING ME.

              If LeBron James posted that statline tonight it would be the lead story on every sports tv/paper/talk/whatever tomorrow. But because it is Drummond it might make some type of "oh btw" type news.

              I'm trying to check my memory for anytime I've seen these types of stats in person and I can only think of a few and we are talking back in the 90's. I remember Barkley coming here and laying down that type of stat line. I can remember Shaq in the finals having like a 40 -20 game or something close to it. But that's it, that is where my memory ends. Won't say I'm not forgetting some, I am old after all, but this was something to behold. The worst part of it is that he went to the freethrow line and shot it as though he were Steph Curry.

              Sometimes you have to give credit where credit is due. It was not because either Myles or Domas had a bad game, it is because Drummond was just beasting it out there. Kenard & Rose were also pains in the asses but they could not have done what they did without the big man.
              First player since Charles Barkley in his Suns debut to open the season with a 30/20 game.

              It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

              Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
              Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
              NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004
              • 1 like

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              • #8
                This game completely took the wind out of my sails as far as my excitement for this group. It's one game and maybe I'm over reacting but our bench is just absolutely atrocious. Our last two first round picks are complete busts, even if we are terrible this year Milkwaukee is going to take our pick I assume. Our coach won't play Goga who actually could be the only pick we've made in the last couple of years that is an actual NBA player. We had excellent games from Turner/Sabonis/Brogdon and still couldn't beat an undermanned Detroit team. What is going to happen when we go up against good teams? Yikes!
                *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.
                • 2 likes

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                • #9
                  All the big guys were great tonight for both teams.

                  I'll tell you why we lost:
                  - Identity. Both offensively and defensively. The Pacers have a lot of new faces and are still figuring each other out, and it showed... whereas the Pistons largely have their identity, which is a .500 ball club, but still, when one team has an identity and the other is still feeling it out, I give the team with somewhat of an identity the advantage most of the time. It becomes more evident down the stretch of a close game... the team with an identity can apply that pressure and that's exactly what happened, because the Pacers controlled large parts of this game until the last 5 minutes or so. I'm actually somewhat impressed the Pacers scored 110 while going some stretches looking a little confused and rusty, which might be a good sign down the road.
                  --- Defense. We hit our target of 110, but we let the Pistons throw down almost 120 on us, and they were a 25th-ranked offense last year. Again, the first point above had a big part of that. Another big part of why that happened was the dribble penetration by their guards. Drummond was huge tonight, but I felt like a lot of their offense was being initiated by their guards, there just wasn't enough pressure on them. DRose had his way last night, and Jackson didn't particularly score a ton, but was still setting up the offense. The ball was swinging and getting inside and that allowed Drummond to do what he does, which is shoot from 1 foot or less, and it also resulted in some nice looks from 3 for Kennard and others.

                  I'm not terribly tore up over this loss, when I put some context around it. We were in the driver's seat and basically didn't close them out. Young team, still learning each other, that's what happens. I think it'll take them 10 games to figure everything out and then things'll get rolling.
                  Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 10-24-2019, 11:21 AM.
                  There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.
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                  • #10
                    Great to have Odd Thoughts back, Peck!

                    I love the reactions. Around here everyone is on board with "the team is going to struggle to learn to work together and will need some time to gel, especially before Dipo gets back" - until we lose a game because the team struggled to work together (including coaching choices) and suddenly it's "forget the next 81 games, it's all over."
                    BillS

                    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...
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                    • #11
                      Where to begin...

                      The bench is a disaster zone. Aaron looks horrific and did all preseason too. Doug looks ok but is still totally under utilized. McConnell is a classic Pacers bench player who is just good enough to have moments, but is as average as can be. Putting him next to Brogdon in the starting lineup might solve some things, but I'm not sure enough. Justin Holiday is...fine? I have no idea why we are still playing TJ Leaf. The guy sucks. Let's see what we have in Alize and Goga please.

                      Warren was basically every negative that you could have said about him coming out of Phoenix tonight. Not a winning player at least for those 48 minutes. Too reliant on getting the ball and when Turner, Domas and Brogdon took over offensively he completely disappeared at both ends. His defensive effort is almost entirely reliant on his inclusion in the offense, so in that way I completely now understand how he was mentored by David West. Hopefully he can get his **** together, because there is no doubt that Domas, Myles and Malcolm should be consuming 75% of the possessions.

                      Lamb was fine I thought. Rough start but kept plugging away. Needs to be more consistent defensively without a doubt.

                      Nate McMillan is still infuriating. 21 damn 3 point attempts in 2019 is basketball malpractice and 3 of those came in desperation at the end. Myles thankfully took 7 attempts from long range, but that just makes the 14 attempts from the rest of our team look even worse. It showed in the 4th quarter as Detroit basically stopped paying attention to any guards or wings at the 3 point line and our offense became a heinously clogged toilet of Brogdon and Domas trying desparately to find any space from the free throw line and in. Nate still does not know how to run a late game offense without an athletic top tier guard and while Brogdon is an exceptional player he just did not fit that mold and they need Vic to have any hope of Nate's late game turds turning into gold.

                      About the only positive is that Myles and Domas didn't just look good together, they looked exceptional. Drummond kicked both their asses, but he has really developed into quite a well rounded player and deserves credit for that.
                      Last edited by Trader Joe; 10-24-2019, 11:49 AM.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BillS View Post
                        Great to have Odd Thoughts back, Peck!

                        I love the reactions. Around here everyone is on board with "the team is going to struggle to learn to work together and will need some time to gel, especially before Dipo gets back" - until we lose a game because the team struggled to work together (including coaching choices) and suddenly it's "forget the next 81 games, it's all over."
                        I mean that's a nice thought but Nate's been the coach here for a long time there's no reason to expect him to suddenly change who he is.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post

                          I mean that's a nice thought but Nate's been the coach here for a long time there's no reason to expect him to suddenly change who he is.
                          The guy is clueless.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post

                            I mean that's a nice thought but Nate's been the coach here for a long time there's no reason to expect him to suddenly change who he is.
                            I mean, I don't disagree on Nate, but even I don't think this is the rotations we'll see all season.
                            BillS

                            A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                            Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...
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                            • #15
                              Drummond has always given us problems and now that he can hit FTs (if you consider 60% hitting FTs...I know he was better than that last night) he is too much for us.

                              We are going to struggle with any of the big physical Centers, Drummond, Adams, Whiteside. We need a big, bulky guy that can come in and be physical with them and wear them down. Al Jefferson in his last year with us is a good example. Someone that doesn't have to play every game but can come in against the physical players and let Turner and Sabonis rest while he is wearing their big out.
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