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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
Abel why only show Reggie's twilight years (well that and the last few of his prime) and not all of them?
Abel why only show Reggie's twilight years (well that and the last few of his prime) and not all of them?
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
The we have no shooters now doesn't explain his relatively low FG% for a primary offensive weapon in the post in the period 2003-2005 when we DID have shooters.
Regards,
Mourning
2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws
Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
well that is part of his prime and part of his last years, but to compare career avg reggie .471 and JO is at .461
Reggie's best percentage years were wasted on a reasonably bad team, with a few exceptions, and it was not to compare Reggie to JO (apples and pears) but to show identical use of stats as the previous poster, i.e. to the advantage of my side of the argument, whilst being more complete.
also why sample periods that are irrellevant? those are the best years for the P's (with LB as coach) and all of JO's years with the Pacers, I think that is a good and accurate sample.So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.
If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!
Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
Well we are wasting JO now on a relatively bad team aswell... he's not going up in FG%. Ok, maybe it's more difficult for a post player to get higher FG%'s I'm not sure about that, but something has to give here IMO.2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.wsComment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
We were pretty good in '94, '95, '96, and '98 as well. What are his numbers then?
Also, when is it ever a good sign that our PF has a lower career FG% than our former SG?Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
Wo where those "shooters"?Originally posted by Mourning View PostThe we have no shooters now doesn't explain his relatively low FG% for a primary offensive weapon in the post in the period 2003-2005 when we DID have shooters.
Regards,
Mourning
Reggie? (see his percentage that period, and consider that in 05 he went out on .322 on 3's)
Ron?
The only time I have seen JO play with a good shooter and immediately have pay off was the few games Peja played here, JO's assists went through the roof (games with 5 and 6 even 7), he had much higher percentage himself but alas it was never meant to be, that what it "could've" looked like with a Reggie in his prime.
Neither however is an argument to talk down on how good JO in actual fact is, which is simply better then Reggie, leaving aside what Reggie meant to the franchise, longevity is something that is given, nothing else, if they had let Reggie go to NY or traded him instead of Rose, would he be as revered as now?
JO is simply the best player the Pacers have had during their NBA stay.
And I believe that safe for a small number of (agreed, often loud) posters here, he is the most popular Pacer as well by far.So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.
If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!
Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
98 I mentioned,Originally posted by Mal View Post
94-95 .462
95-96 .472
96-97 .444
But.... Who was with him on those teams?
Didn't a certain Dutch guy keep Reggie out of the double and triple teams?
Was not 85% of our offense "build" around Reggie?
When was this team build around JO?
Who makes it out that being double and triple teamed is JO's idea of offense? (outside of the game 8 conspiracy believers)
When did JO have cast to "play ball with" ?
As I said, a glimpse when he played a few games with Peja, the ones we won in that series versus the Nets for instance.
That is the JO we CAN have, but never got. (final year IT and 1st year RC perhaps as well, but ever since then there has only been "players" around JO, no complementary ones.So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.
If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!
Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
You mentioned 98-99, but I'm referring to 97-98.
Typically when referring to a specific NBA season by year, the date refers to the year at the end of the season, not the beginning. I was referring to 93-94 season, 94-95 season, 95-96 season, and the 97-98 season.Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
Maybe the team personnel isn't built to suit JO, but the whole focus of the offense has been to slow it down, dump it in to JO, maximize his scoring opportuinities, and have everyone else get out of his way.Originally posted by able View Post
If Jo were surrounded by better players, sure he doesn't shoot 43% but he then becomes another 16/8 player. A bigger and more defensively active Drew Gooden. (OK, Drew Gooden is a 12/8 guy, but in fewer minutes, so you get the idea)Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 07-26-2007, 12:49 PM.The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
Simply I disagree with the JO is better than Reggie angle. I believe the following is a good example why.Originally posted by able View Post
http://www.nba.com/history/players/miller_bio.html
Complete Bio | Summary
A volatile, high-voltage scorer from the off guard position, Reggie Miller was one of the supreme shooters of any era. With 2,560 made three-pointers, he ended his career as the NBA's greatest long range shooter. He poured in 25,279 points to finish his career in 12th place on league's all-time scoring list.
But he also had a penchant for the spectacular clutch shot in gunslinger fashion that made him a feared and despised opponent. His heroic play down the stretch of games became known as "Miller Time."
The slender 6-7 and 190 pound former UCLA Bruin was selected with the 11th overall pick at the 1987 NBA Draft by the Indiana Pacers. He would go onto spend his entire 18-year career there becoming another legendary figure in basketball Hoosier history.
At UCLA, he ranked fourth in the nation in scoring as a junior with 25.9 ppg and then averaged 22.3 ppg as a senior. At the time he was drafted, he also ranked second on the school's all-time scoring list behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. But the stick-figured shooter was not welcomed as the home state fans desired Indiana University's All-American guard Steve Alford.
However, Miller played more games with the same team than all but two players in NBA history, John Stockton and Karl Malone of the Utah Jazz. Miller would also lead the Pacers from futility to the Finals and many postseason escapades. Much of his playoff drama would involve his most intense rival, the New York Knicks, and take place on their home court at Madison Square Garden.
He came from a very athletic family. His older brother Darrell had a major league career as a catcher/outfielder with the California Angels. His sister, Cheryl, was a basketball star at USC and considered one of the best woman players ever. However, Miller, had a portentous start to a professional athletic career.
Born with a hip deformity that caused severely splayed feet, for the first four years of his life he wore leg braces to correct the birth defect. Doctors questioned if he would ever walk unassisted. The braces came off when he was five and Miller made up for lost time in trying to keep up with his athletic brothers and sisters.
Once in the NBA, Miller didn’t waste any time logging himself into the record books. He broke an eight-year-old mark set by Larry Bird when he hit 61 three-pointers for the season, more than any other rookie in NBA history. (Dennis Scott would shatter the mark by hitting 125 three-pointers in 1990-91)
He averaged 10.0 ppg for the season, shooting .488 from the field and .355 from three-point range. He only started one game coming off the bench behind John Long but was the only Pacer to play in all 82 games.
In his second season, his scoring average went up to 16.0 ppg and lead Indiana with 93 steals. But in 1989-90, his third season, Miller took off.
Miller’s scoring average soared for the second straight season, this time to a career-high 24.6 ppg for eighth best in the NBA. Miller's perpetual motion and ability to weave through and around multiple picks made defending him an obstacle course of activity.
He became the first Pacer to play in the NBA All-Star Game since Don Buse and Billy Knight in 1977. He also finished runner-up to the Miami Heat’s Rony Seikaly for the NBA Most Improved Player Award.
Indiana reached the NBA Playoffs in 1990 for the first time in Miller’s career, but it was a brief visit. The defending NBA-champion Detroit Pistons swept the Pacers in a first-round series, despite Miller’s 20.7 ppg on .571 shooting from the field.
“Along with Michael Jordan, I believe he’s the greatest clutch player we have ever seen. He is a true professional with unbelievable heart, desire and dedication. He’s a great friend, he was a great teammate and true blessing, not just to Indiana basketball, but to basketball throughout the world.”
-- Mark Jackson
Miller followed that year with another fine season in 1990-91, hitting for 22.6 ppg and leading the NBA with a free-throw percentage of .918. He turned in similar numbers the next two seasons as the club hovered around the .500 mark but lost in the first round of the playoffs each year.
In 1993-94, Larry Brown took over as Indiana’s head coach. Miller’s scoring average slipped to 19.9 ppg, but he finished second in the league in free-throw percentage and third in three-point field-goal percentage. He also became the team’s all-time leading scorer and only the fourth player in NBA history to hit 800 three-pointers in his career.
The Pacers won 47 games that year and then went all the way to the Eastern Conference Finals. In the playoffs, Miller averaged 23.2 ppg but his performance in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference Finals against the New York Knicks may well be remembered as his coming out party as it cemented the belief that with Miller on the floor, the Pacers seem to always have a chance to pull out a victory.
In that game, Miller dropped 25 points in the fourth quarter - hitting 5 of 5 from three-point range - to lead Indiana to a 93-86 comeback victory at Madison Square Garden. Miller exchanged barbs with filmmaker Spike Lee and renowned Knicks fan at courtside during the barrage of points. The performance shocked the home crowd and consummated the love-hate relationship (they both loved to hate each other) between the Garden faithful and Miller.
But the worst for Knicks fans had yet to come as the ensuing year would be more horrific.
Before that, the Knicks, though, would win the next two games to take the '94 series. In Game 7, the Knicks' great center Patrick Ewing posted 24 points and 22 boards in the 94-90 win. Miller scored 25 points but missed the potential game-winning three from the right elbow in the final seconds.
However, Miller’s exploits in Game 5 would stand as one of the greatest individual efforts in NBA Playoff history and that entire playoff run propelled him to superstardom. That summer he participated as a tri-captain on the U.S. National team. The team captured a gold medal at the 1994 World Championship of Basketball as he was the team's leading scorer (17.1 ppg).
The 1994-95 season was a repeat performance for Miller and the Pacers in how it ended, but he accomplished a lot on the way. He was voted by fans to start in the 1995 NBA All-Star Game and was named to the All-NBA Third Team. The Pacers set a club record with 50 wins as they claimed their first division title since joining the NBA from their championship wining ABA days. The team advanced again to the Eastern Conference finals for the second straight year; this time falling to the Shaquille O'Neal-led Orlando Magic in seven games.
Miller scorched the Atlanta Hawks in the opening round of the playoffs to the tune of 31.7 ppg while draining 7 three-pointers in a 39-point effort in Game 2.
But his defining moment as clutch performer may have come in Game 1 of the conference semifinals in New York. The Pacers were down by 6 with 16.9 seconds when Miller hit a three. He stole the inbound pass and dribbled behind the three point arc to sink another one to tie the game. After the Knicks missed two free-throws, Miller sank two for the final margin of victory of 107-105.
In a span of 8.9 seconds, Miller scored 8 points. The crowd and the basketball world were stunned.
Longtime rival Ewing would later say, "he's [Miller] the kind of guy, when you play against him, you want to smack him. But when you play with him, you have his back. You have the utmost respect for him. He came out, he played hard and he did what he needed to do to help his team win...We’ve had our battles, we’ve had our wars. I have utmost respect for him."
The flurry was reminiscent of his 25-point fourth-quarter outburst in the same building in the conference finals the previous season, but this time the Pacers went on to defeat the Knicks in a series after two unsuccessful attempts. Miller made sure of it this time as he scored 29 points in Game 7 to close out the series in the Garden.
In the next round versus the Magic, Miller exploded in the first six games. He scored 17 points in the first period of Game 1 (and 26 for the contest), then collected 37 in Game 2. In Game 6, he scored 28 points in the first half on the way to a 36-point evening. He was held in check in Game 7, however, as the Pacers fell, 101-85. Miller finished the playoffs with an outstanding average of 25.5 ppg.
Following the 1994-95 season, Miller was named to the 1996 U.S. Olympic Team that would go onto to win the gold medal at the 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta.
The next two seasons were disappointing for Miller and the Pacers. The team won 52 games for the second consecutive season in 1995-96. However, the Pacers went only as far as Miller could take them. Unfortunately, after an April 13 collision that fractured Miller's eye socket, Miller could not rebound fast enough to help them survive a first-round playoff loss to the Atlanta Hawks.
Without Miller in the lineup, the Hawks and Pacers split the first four games. He made a dramatic Game 5 return in front of the home crowd at Market Square Arena. Although he scored 29 points, the Hawks scored a two-point victory, putting an end to Indiana's season.
The next season the Pacers slumped to 39-43 and head coach Larry Brown's resigned at season's end.
That brought another Indiana legend to the fold as native son Larry Bird became the new Pacer's head coach before the 1997-98 campaign. Bird inherited a veteran team that included Miller, Rik Smits, Dale Davis and point guard Mark Jackson, who re-joined the team in mid-season after a trade to Denver, the year prior. In addition, Chris Mullin, another sharp-shooter, was added to the mix.
After disposing of the Cavaliers and Knicks in the playoffs, Indiana entered a much-anticipated meeting with the Michael Jordan led- Chicago Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals. The Pacers entered the series with confidence after splitting the four regular season games against the two-time defending champs. After dropping two close games in Chicago, the Pacers made Memorial Day Weekend memorable with two thrilling home wins.
Miller, whose playoff performance moments heroics have defined his fine career, scored 13 of his 28 points in the final four and half minutes of the 107-105 Game 3 win, despite a sprained ankle.
But not only had his reputation as a clutch performer been settled, he was just as infamous for his grabbing and flopping tactics that either earned him the benefit of the referee's whistle or freed him to get his shoot off. His unique use of hands and arms came up big in Game 4. He was being closely guarded by Jordan, but rocked Jordan off balance with his hands to break loose and nailed a miraculous three-pointer with 2.7 seconds remaining that gave the Pacers a 96-94 victory.
The home teams held serve in the next two games, setting up a Game 7. In a tightly competitive game, the Pacers held a 72-69 lead with less than nine minutes to play. The Bulls, who would go on to win their third straight NBA title, clamped down defensively, dominating the boards. Scottie Pippen hit a couple of big shots down the stretch to end the Pacers' season 88-83.
The NBA went through a labor lockout and played just a 50-game schedule in 1998-99. The Pacers tied the Miami Heat for the Eastern Conference's best record of 33-17. Individually, Miller ended the season as the NBA's all-time career leader in three-pointers made (1,702) and attempted (4,225).
The team reached the Eastern Conference Finals for the fourth time in six years, but their path to the NBA Finals was blocked again in a tough six game series by the surprising eighth-seed New York Knicks.
Finally, the next season, the Pacers reached the Finals.
There were a few other firsts as well. The Pacers moved from Market Square Arena to the new Conseco Field House. Also, for the first time in 11 years, Miller was not the Pacers leading scorer as small forward Jalen Rose nosed him out 18.2 ppg to 18.1 ppg.
The Pacers had the best overall record (56-26) in the Eastern Conference but struggled to get past the upstart Milwaukee Bucks in a tough five-game first-round series. In Game 1 of the Eastern Conference Semifinals against the Philadelphia 76ers, Miller and Rose each scored 40 points - becoming only the fourth pair of teammates in playoff history to accomplish that feat- in the Pacers' 108-91 victory. After dispatching the 76ers in six games, the rematch against the Knicks in the conference finals was set.
The two rivals split the first four games. Then the Pacers won Game 5 at home and closed out the series at the Garden behind 34 points from Miller to set up their first trip to the NBA Finals.
However, Miller and the Pacers ran into a dominating Lakers team led by Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant. The Pacers dropped the first two games on the road. They won the first NBA Finals home game in franchise history 100-91, and nearly pulled off another victory in Game 4 before losing a 120-118 decision in overtime.
Though the Pacers drubbed the Lakers 120-87 in Game 5, the series was wrapped up by Los Angeles on its home floor in Game 6, a 116-111 decision. Miller averaged 24.3 ppg in the series.
The Pacers would go through many transitions during Miller's last five years with the club, but it was clear he was still the team leader.
Larry Bird left the bench after three highly successful seasons but another Indiana legend took over as Bird was replaced with former IU and NBA great Isiah Thomas. Smits retired and Mullin asked to be released so he could sign with Golden State and finish his career where it began. Jackson left via free agency and power forward, Dale Davis was traded to Portland for the young but promising Jermaine O'Neal.
Miller's offense dipped as Rose became more of an offensive option. And with so many new faces and a less experienced team, the Pacers predictably struggled but with a record of 41-41 eventually garnered an eighth-seed in the playoffs.
The postseason, once again, belonged to Miller though. He hit a vintage three-pointer with 2.9 seconds left to deliver a shocking 79-78 victory in Game 1 in Philadelphia. Miller then proceeded to average 36.0 ppg over the next three games, but it wasn't enough as the Sixers rebounded to win the series in four games.
The next season, while Miler led the NBA in free throw accuracy (91.1) for the fourth time in his career, the second straight season and the third time in the last four seasons, the Pacers improved one game for a record of 42-40. That was good enough for another eight seed.
However, they forced the top seed New Jersey Nets to the brink. In the decisive Game 5 of the first-round series, Miller sunk a 40-foot three pointer as time expired to force overtime. But the Nets rebounded to win in double overtime 120-109 and take the series.
Ever evolving, the Pacers then rebuilt itself into a contender quickly. Bird returned after a two-year absence from the franchise, but as President. Shortly thereafter, Thomas was replaced with Rick Carlisle, Bird's former assistant who had been relieved of his head coach duties with the Detroit Pistons despite two successful seasons.
The Pacers went on to have the best record in the NBA, 61-21, setting a franchise mark for wins in the process. But the Pacers lost in six games to Detroit in the conference finals as they marched onward to winning the NBA championship by sweeping the Lakers.
In Miller's final campaign, which began on the injured list after breaking a bone in his left hand during the preseason, the Pacers roster was decimated after a brawl in Detroit that resulted in multiple and lengthy player suspensions. Miller again became a primary option on the now disjointed team and he returned with a vengeance.
He scored at least 30 points six times and averaged almost 20 ppg game in the absence of O'Neal, the team leading scorer, belying a 39-year old shooting guard and his mid-season statement that the 2004-05 campaign would be his last.
In early April, Miller played his last game in the Garden - the visiting arena where many of his most brilliant moments took place. Although it was somewhat anti-climatic, it was not unemotional. The Knicks had faded from playoff contention and many of the bodies in the orange and blue uniforms had changed from the chaotic rivalry, but the fans remained and remembered the wounds.
Initially, he was booed but near the end of the game that he only would score 13 points in a Pacers 97-79 victory, the crowd chanted "Reg-gie, Reg-gie" and honored him with a standing ovation. Miller closed the affair with an embrace of Lee, the embodiment of the Knicks' anti-Miller sentiment.
The Pacers surged late in the regular season and not only reached the playoffs, but did so as the sixth seed. They then proceeded to upset Atlantic Division champion Boston in seven games in the first round. Undermanned, the Pacers fell to the defending champion Pistons 4-2 in the Eastern Conference Semifinals despite a stirring 27-point performance from Miller in his final game.
Near the game's conclusion, Miller left the floor for the last time to a hometown ovation that lasted minutes. Pistons head coach Larry Brown and Miller's former coach with Indiana graciously called a time allowing the entire Pistons team to join the crowd as it continued to applaud him and his outstanding career.You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
Which is the heart of the Issue a good big man should always have a better % than a SG. Especially a SG that takes alot of 3 pointers(which I think Reggie did).Originally posted by Mal View Post
If you take away Reggies 3 point shooting, he averaged 52% for the 90's, thats pretty damn impressive for a shooter. Thats the kind of numbers a guy that is considered a dominant post player should be giving. For his entire career from 2 point range he average over 51.5% JO has never accomplished that in a season. If I am not mistaken JO has never even reached 50%.Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
Not at all. I'm saying that without having seen the future (Brown and beyond) what was Reggie's legacy at the time? Less than Chuck Person's. Chuck at least had his showing versus the Celtics.Originally posted by Mal View PostIf Jim O'Brien does what Brown did in regards to rejuvenating the franchise, well, I wont' commit to anything but something special needs to happen in his honor. But are you saying you believe this, coming off of 'Indiana will have a higher pick than Seattle in the 2008 NBA draft'?
It's easy to look back now and view the whole thing as one big Reggie love-fest, but it most certainly was not that. And for great perspective let's consider Smits, a guy many fans HATED because of his ongoing foot issues that were making his selection at #2 a "waste". There were long stretches where a majority of fans wanted him traded or thought he was never going to help. This was true despite his Magic miracle.
For him it seems the Bird years saved and then cemented his standing in fans' minds.
So when I see the ripping on JO I am reminded of the similar loss of perspectives I saw prior to Brown and prior to Bird (for Smits). I was at MSA in 92, I was die-hard when Dale was signed, and it was fairly lonely most of the time. No one considered these guys Pacers legends and most fans figured the Indy 500 was becoming a joke (for Reggie's early years).
Looking back those were the salad days, the cusp of a golden era, but at the time they were just more crap years. That doesn't prove that JOB will save the day and I don't think he will (I hope, but don't expect it).
It proves that fans don't know what the F they are talking about when the chips are down. They get overly bitter and sour, especially about the star players and sometimes the coach (just ask Dungy). JO is squarely in the middle of that now, taking full heat for being the big failure despite his team being over 60 wins and in the ECF many years sooner than Reggie got there (and with 3 AS caliber players no less - Det, Dale, Rik, all Pacers all-stars).
Frankly I can't wait to hear the Murphy IS Rik, Dunleavy is Detlef, Foster is Dale connections. I mean same circumstances for JO as Reggie, right?
Maybe not so much.
ps - I WAS THE ONE who put up the FG% thread that showed just how poorly JO and Tinsley shot the 2pt shot last year. I'm not some unbiased fanboy here. I haven't suggested JO hasn't had issues too. But how about some freaking perspective already.
The next time you see someone else setting a screen to free JO from his defender for the open look will be the first. Remember when Ben Wallace stepped out on the PnR and crushed Reggie's shot into the new year in his final playoff game? That's the defense JO is asked to score against every single time. Not freed via screen, but doubled because of a lack of respect for the rest of the roster.
When JO gets his outside shooting versions of what Dale and Rik were inside for Reggie, shooters or ball-handlers of AS/near AS caliber, then you'll see him getting legit FGA looks.
Think about this, the Pacers needed a defensive stop on Jordan in 98. When he went belly-flopping to the floor after tripping over someone's foot, did that foot belong to Reggie? Was Reggie going to step over and send Mike's shot into the front row if he did get to the rim? Was Reggie's defense going to save the day, did it save the day?
There was a reason McKey was a key part of the team, and also why Bird asked Rose to be a tough defender, and why they drafted Dale.
Talk about FG% issues, what about the issue of a big taking more charges than a guard, that's not the norm. But Reggie was hardly the king of charges taken despite his ability to flop on offense to get a call. JO does things that Reggie couldn't, he blows him away in some of those areas.
Reggie was a shooting specialist. If he wasn't aces from the field then what exactly was he doing for the team? JO at least blocks a shot, takes a charge, gets a rebound if he can't make a shot every time. Two ends on the court here.
PSS - I think Reggie was a better player than JO is. I just don't think it's mind-numbingly obvious or that JO is a overpaid dud.Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-26-2007, 01:20 PM.
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
We must run with a different crowd because the tide actually turned with that Bob Hill coached team. There was a love fest for that team and in particular as you pointed out Chuck, but Reggie was the up and comer right there or at least seemed that way at the airport when they returned after that loss.Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View PostYou know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
He's not a great shooter, but he does draw fouls. In another thread I pointed out exactly why JO had the right to complain 8 games in. He was being asked to start plays at the arc (setting a pick or screen), then step to the elbow for most plays, and that's where he was expected to shoot from as well.Originally posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
His FG% wasn't better or worse for it necessarily, but his FREE THROWS were crushed. They were running sub 3 per game when previously he had always been a 7-8 FTA per game guy. After the game 8 rant he pulled out 8 FTAs per game in the next 8. He didn't take a single extra FG to do this either.
His game is inside taking tough shots with lots of contact. It limits the FG% at times but it also pressures the defense. He puts his team in the bonus quicker and he puts defenders in foul trouble quicker.
He IS NOT an offensive ace, he is not a KG scoring type. But he is far more balanced between both ends than Reggie was. For shot blocking specialists he's typically a much more effective offensive threat.
I won't deny that KG and Duncan are better than JO, Shaq in his prime obviously. But Dirk being asked to get a big defensive stop or stepping into the lane to get the charge (thus denying the score, tagging a guy with a foul, maybe getting FTs, and definitely getting ball possession) is a freaking joke. It never happens. Plus, the next time you see Stephen Jackson able to deny JO a shot will be the first time.
For all the true fan talk where hustle, dirty work, stuff that doesn't make the box score talk when it comes to guys like Foster or intangibles specialist, those same aspects from JO get totally discarded in favor of offensive firepower discussions. I don't get it.
I'm big on JO because of those things. He's earned my respect and interest, I didn't just hand it over to him. He really did lead the Pacers in charges taken the last 2 years, and didn't even have near a full season of games to do that 2 years ago. That's not made up stuff, that's real, those things happened.
So I give him credit. Just like I give him credit for cutting out the jersey snap and cutting back the posing and crap. This dude was better about getting back on D than ever last season. Doesn't seem to have bought him one ounce of respect from the fans that were clamoring for him to do just that.
To me that's unfair.Comment
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Re: Keep JO a Pacer Thread
That wasn't Bob's final year. It went sour after that. There was no airport return after a home loss to the Knicks a few years later. No one was cheering them on for a good effort that night, not that I recall.Originally posted by RWB View Post
After being swept by Boston (finished in MSA as well) the year before, it was "clear" to most fans that this team would never be anything.
And at the time Detlef was the bigger star, the 2 time 6th man who stuffed the box score like no NBA Pacer before him. He was 19/9/6 with a steal per game (2nd in scoring, 1st in rebounds, 2nd in assists). Reggie was a shooting specialist who only scored 21 himself. He was a ONE TIME all-star and that was a few years prior. It was Detlef who had just been named to the AS team as a matter of fact.
They could have traded Reggie instead of Detlef and fans wouldn't have been more upset. As a matter of fact most fans were pretty ticked off that they were building on these flops by trading the team's best all-around player. As much as I liked McKey, I think they were right to complain, and Det's success in Seattle seemed to validate that view (he made 2 more AS teams in the next 4 years), it's not like they flopped when Detlef showed up.Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-26-2007, 01:52 PM.Comment
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