off season thoughts and ramblings

[oneofthesedays]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

your right, rebuilding isn't the magic pill for fixing a perennial losing squad. it also takes smart management and a competent GM, neither of which your team has.

[Will Galen]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

Very good post Able! That would have taken me 6 hours to write since I hunt and Peck.

[RWB]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

No, I'm not talking about dumping down talent just to try and bottom out to rise up again like a phoenix. I'm talking specifically about getting rid of Jermaine O'Neal. I would really like to see Jamaal on the first bus out of town as well but I am willing to see how he works in the new system.

After reading Able's post we must have really had a witch hunt at the party. Guess what, yes the sky is falling and has been for three years. This team has been a wreck and I refuse to stick my head in the sand and blow sushine up my bottom.

Able, you still get hugs though.

[OakMoses]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

You make some terriffic points in this post, but I think you fail to acknowledge some of the legitimate arguments of the posters in the camps you describe.

I don't know exactly which camp I would place myself in.

I think that there is enough talent on the team that they could stand pat, win 42 games and slide in as the 7 or 8 seed in the East. They could also with a few injuries to guys like O'Neal, Tinsley, and Daniels wind up winning 25-30 games and being near the top of the lottery.

What many people are saying is that they believe there is no way the Pacers can contend for a championship by standing pat. The logical forward projection of this roster barring a major shake-up via trade (which is possible) or free agency (not possible) is neither awful nor terribly rosy. It's the status quo. Make the playoffs as a 5-8 seed and lose in the first round. Sure the young players on the roster will develop, but our two best youngsters (Shawne & Ike) play the same postition as our two best players (Danny & JO).

Without a significant roster shakeup, the only way the Pacers can even rise to contender status in the East is by hoping that two of Danny, Shawne, and Ike become all-star caliber players within the next couple of years or that we somehow land a big-time player in the middle of the draft. Neither of those things are really likely to happen.

Personally, I believe that we could trade JO and still contend for a playoff spot in the East while freeing up some time for our youngsters. A good JO trade would even bring in a talented young PG who could eventually replace Tinsley.

Your post is spot on from a business perspective, but a team that wins consistently while never legitimately competing for a title is great from a business perspective. Many fans are not satisfied with this type of model, and they have a legitimate beef.

One last point, I think there are very few people who desire a true rebuild. The reason things are in such dire straights around here is because last season was so painful. I don't think there are too many of us who would wish 2 or 3 seasons of that upon ourselves. Personally, I know that even when the Pacers needed to lose last year to keep their pick, I'd watch and root for them to win. When I couldn't watch, I still check the scores on the internet and root for them to win.

I guess what I'm saying is that I want the best of both worlds, and that I truly believe it's possible. I think that the Pacers organization can put a good product out on the floor with or without JO.

[Mourning]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

After reading Able's post we must have really had a witch hunt at the party. Guess what, yes the sky is falling and has been for three years. This team has been a wreck and I refuse to stick my head in the sand and blow sushine up my bottom.

Able, you still get hugs though.

on both accounts

[wintermute]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

your right, rebuilding isn't the magic pill for fixing a perennial losing squad. it also takes smart management and a competent GM, neither of which your team has.

well, donnie and larry could always take pointers from the lakers' championship-winning gm... oh wait, jerry west has retired you say. who's that great gm running the lake show now?

[Infinite MAN_force]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

Butler for Kwame is one of the stupider trades I have seen, probably worse the the GS trade for the pacers, considering managment was in a position where they felt they HAD to trade someone (jack). yea, Kuphecks record aint nothing to shine about either, last time I checked your franchise player was demanding a trade and destroying all your leverage so...

[Jay@Section12]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

Abel,

You make many great points in a very good post. But I do have a question for you: Did trading Dale Davis for Jermaine O'Neal make us a better team in 2001?

Yes, it did.



The problem in 2001 was playing AC and Jalen Rose out of position (and perhaps playing JO out of position as well.) (But even that wasn't Isiah's fault, the roster was hopelessly unbalanced with no PG and 504 forwards.)

[Jay@Section12]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

I don't know which camp I'm in.

I don't want to trade JO and Tinsley.

I don't see any moves the Pacers can make that will have us better than the Bulls in the next three seasons. And perhaps also the Cavs and Pistons, although the Cavs and Pistons have minor problems to shore up. But Orlando, Washington and Toronto don't impress me. It actually depresses me that we can't beat those teams because they really aren't very good.

I'm somewhat excited about the new coach(es.) But not if the roster that finished last season is going to be shooting the "3".

I don't mind Dunleavy's contract.

Our backcourt needs serious help, so we are going to have to give up a young forward with potential to fix it. The question is, which forward?

I don't think "talent" is the answer. I do think the masses of PD have given up on a trade for "team" players before the new players ever got a chance to mesh. I think JOB is the perfect coach for Murphy.

I don't trust Bird and Walsh to clean up their own mess. So I guess I'm in #4. But I don't think wholesale changes are required.

And I would have Tinsley on a very short leash. If he actually gets some trade value, I'd have no problem moving him in a transaction that brought in a starting caliber PG. Without a viable alternative, he stays.

I don't really see how Diogu and Foster fit into what JOB has said he is going to do. For that matter, I really don't see how Bynum would, either. It seems to me that its either JO at center and make the playoffs or trade JO and make the lottery for several years. Trading JO for PP would still leave the Pacers as a lottery team.

[Naptown_Seth]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

Abel,

You make many great points in a very good post. But I do have a question for you: Did trading Dale Davis for Jermaine O'Neal make us a better team in 2001? Are all trades teams make (that are not considered bad) helpful immediately?

Also, I just wanted to say that while I hear things behind the scenes that I do not like to hear about JO and some of his choices/actions, I thank you for reminding me of all the good that he does; it's refreshing.

Contrary to some thinking, and definitely contrary to Peck's POV I'm certain , the Dale/JO trade did INSTANTLY pay off. With Rik gone there was no way that Dale was going to be the low post scoring threat that JO was even in that first year. And since JO pulled in pretty strong rebounding numbers you really didn't take that big a hit on losing Dale either.

To me this is why I discredit some of Isiah's "magic". The fact is that by losing Jax, Rik and Dale there was some reason for concern. But by getting JO for Dale you fixed about 65% of those losses. When they drafted Tinsley (traded for the pick that is) they fixed perhaps another 20% of those issues, especially those first couple of seasons when he threw the rock around without mercy (or sometimes without concerns for turnovers).


My stance on next season probably isn't far off of Jay's, or Dr. Goldfoot who I agree with about 95% of the time both here and back at the Star. I see plenty of potential for disaster and frankly I don't care if it is. I've accepted where the roster is at right now and assume that it's going to take this season to start to get things a bit untangled. For now I'll relax and let the process unfold. It's been a darn good run and I appreciate even the most recent seasons, at least until the trade when the ball really got ugly and boring.

I mean I'm still wearing the Pacers gear, even right now. And opening night if Dun's the SG and JOB has them shoot 40 3PAs, I'm going to be rooting for Dun and hoping they make 25 of them. I won't bet on it, but I'll be wishing for it.

My debates here are about what I expect, not what I want. I've never let expectations keep me out of the sunshiners camp for very long.




O'Neal
I agree that if some of the behind the scenes issues are true that it makes it frustrating to support JO. My one concern there is that there seems to be a strong disconnect between some of those stories and how he comes off in public. I mean he does do the dirty work and hustles in games as much as anyone, his transition defense attests to that as do his charges taken.

That doesn't mesh well with the idea that he's a prima donna star who simply wants his touches. I mean wanting touches isn't a bad thing in itself, no doubt that Jordan expected to be involved as much as possible on every possession. That comes with being the best player on the team and wanting to bear the burdan of that responsibility just as easily as it comes with being a guy who just wants his scoring numbers. If JO was only giving effort in terms of FGAs then I could see this, but clearly he brings it other ways.

And lest we forget, the dude shot 2 FTs with his left arm only while his right arm hung to the side badly injured just so he could MAYBE come back and play in that same regular season game. That's way down at the other end of the hall from selfish, past the security booth and behind the janitor's closet. It's just not even close. No one would fault a guy for letting a replacement come in and shoot the FTs at that point, but he stepped up and did it anyway.


That's also why I stuck behind his rant in Rick's office. Two weeks into the season it was clear that full court passes and aggressive running weren't going well. 10% may not seem like much, but usually that's a pretty good sample size. Anyone could see that Tins, Jack, Al, JO and Danny weren't comfortable with running, that it looked forced and awkward. This was after a month of camp as well.

So when JO goes in, CLOSES the door, and let's Rick know that he thinks it's a disaster and he'd like to get back to what the team does better I don't see a prima donna there either. His touches DIDN'T GO UP. He was still getting shots those first 8 games. Maybe he saw an increase of 1-2 FGAs...maybe. Again, if that's Jordan telling Phil that he wants the Bulls to go back to the triangle instead of the new motion offense, everyone praises his leadership.

Mike Wells sits outside the office and turns it into some smarmy unprofessional outbust as if he was invited in to participate or as if JO just ranted to him rather than taking it to the coach.

[Naptown_Seth]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

Bleecher fans? Must be a Dutch thing.

[Rajah Brown]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

Naptown-

I've no desire to parse the differences between J.O. supposed
behind the scenes personna and what we see on a routine
basis, etc. But as for his meeting with RC and what 'wasn't
working', it sure didn't seem like either Jax or Al had much
of a problem with 'running' out at GS. And I seriously doubt
that Tinsley had any issues with it. Granger, who knows.
But he seems tailor made for a fast paced, open court attack.

So, that brings us to J.O. Maybe what 'wasn't working' was
simply the fact that he didn't want to run and preferred the
'pound it in to him every damn time down', half-court setup ?

[DgR]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

Naptown-

I've no desire to parse the differences between J.O. supposed
behind the scenes personna and what we see on a routine
basis, etc. But as for his meeting with RC and what 'wasn't
working', it sure didn't seem like either Jax or Al had much
of a problem with 'running' out at GS. And I seriously doubt
that Tinsley had any issues with it. Granger, who knows.
But he seems tailor made for a fast paced, open court attack.

So, that brings us to J.O. Maybe what 'wasn't working' was
simply the fact that he didn't want to run and preferred the
'pound it in to him every damn time down', half-court setup ?

I think it's more like JO is simply a slow player- fit for a half court offence and since he's our franchise player it's only reasonable to to play a style in which he would play comfortably.

In my opinion this is the main reason to trade JO. We brought in an up- tempo coach it doesn't make sense to keep JO playing in a system he's obviously not comfortable in. And I do like JO very much as a player.

[Rajah Brown]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

DgR-

I pretty much agree. Though I do remember J.O. being a more than
willing 'runner' back a few years ago. But that was about 25 lbs and
quite a few miles on his often rickety wheels ago.

[BobbyMac]

Re: off season thoughts and ramblings

I think the Pacers will win 48-50 games next year....the change of coaches will help, Harrison promised me he would be healthy and I believe they took care of Daniels' knee so he should be healthy....Time will tell....JO will have a good year as will JT and DG...