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Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

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  • #1

    Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

    I was going to do an end of the season wrap up but frankly I'm glad I didn't.

    If I would have done it right after the season I would have been to optomistic and had I done it after Rick was shown the door I would have been to pessimistic.

    No, not because I wanted to keep Rick around forever but because it was soon after that when Joseph Donnie Walsh was given a lifetime extension by the Simons.

    Which brings me right up front to what I have to decide. Do I ignore the big pink elephant in the rooom of Jermaine O'Neal and Donnie Walsh or do I spend virtually every single breath of mine complaining to no end about them?

    Frankly I don't know how to go about even talking about this team without dealing with them, but I think my thoughts are so well known there that I feel like I keep banging a drum inside a quiete meditation room. In other words I am the odd man out there.

    Here is what I will agree to, and since it's my post I will feel free to break my own agreement , I'll try and limit my complaints about either of them. Honestly I will try.

    Ok, let's get started shall we?

    First off it's been awhile since I've done one of these so please forgive the rust. But like all Odd thoughts we are going to go all over the place with this.

    Let me start off with thanking everybody who wanted me to post more often and it was odd reading about why I don't post more often. Frankly a couple of years ago I would have been voted the person to please post less.

    Anyway let me clear one thing up right up front. My posting less this past few months has nothing to do with the quality of the board or my diminshed feelings about the Pacers. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact I do feel bad that my posting plummeted about the time the team started to slide. I feel bad because I really like the fact that the team took a big risk. I don't consider it a failure because I don't think it is a finished product yet, but even if it does flop they rolled the dice and I can appreciate that no matter who ultimately did the trade.

    But I don't want to get drug down into who does what or who is responsible for what.

    I just want to say that Bball, Hicks (I refuse to call him Mal) and Magic Rat all had truths in thier posting about why I am not here as much.

    Frankly I am here as much I just don't post as often.

    Anyway Hicks was correct in the fact that by becoming a mod here on the board I do actually try and stear clear of certain controversial topics if I see my fellow mods. have already jumped in. The entire G.S. thread is a prime example of this. There was so much I wanted to say on that thread that it was killing me, however I felt obligated to step back and try and be a non-biased obsever and keep an eye on the thread. I spoke to several of you via p.m. over that thread and I think for the most part that thread stayed free of insults and garbage (for the most part).

    Bball is correct as well. The post game 8 meeting sucked the very life out of me. Frankly I was stupid enough to believe that we were committed to change and that everybody was on the same page. We weren't and it showed more and more as the season went on (till the trade) that this was not going to be a all for one and one for all type of atmosphere. I don't want to debate the merits of the meeting or even anybodys interperataion of the meeting or even if it was right or wrong, I'm just explaining that in my mind it took the sunshine I had built up and ****ed on it like an overhydrated dog.

    But at the end of the day Magicrat hit the nail on the head, I have opened up two new online stores and between that and still doing my regular job I hardly have time to breath let alone write one of these.

    Wow that was a whole lot of B.S. all about me. Dear God let's get off of this and move onto some Pacers talk.

    But first I must interupt this regularly scheduled gripe session with an invitation to everyone.

    That's right folks, it's fruitdance time.



    Ok where to start?

    Oh hell let's start with Granger.

    Hmmmm....I'm curious about Danny. He has flaws and there are times he makes mistakes that you have to wonder about. But then again he has times where he leaves me wondering why are we not making the focus of the offense right now?

    I think I'm a little scared about the new coach's love with the three point shot and the fact that Danny can fall into the trap of just standing outside jacking up the three.

    However Danny did prove this year that he listens to criticism and after falling into the three point trap he settled down and started going to the rim. Danny going to the rim is a good thing.

    What I like the most about Danny is his willingness to take contact. There is nothing weak about Danny and the fact that he is fearless inside just makes him more of a threat IMO.

    I'll go out on a limb now and say this. I think this is the year that Danny takes over the leadership of the club. By that I don't mean team Captain, I mean the on floor leader of the club. I think he will average 18ppg and grab between 6-8 rpg. I believe that on the defensive end he will fit right into O'Brians plans as an aggressive ball hawk.

    I don't think Danny will every be a superstar but I do believe he can be one of the better players at his position in the east and he can be the anchor of a good team oriented offense.

    Shawne Williams. Look I'll just say it now. I like him. From the first time I saw him play last fall I was asking people with me what the hell people were talking about when they were calling him weak. If he is weak then I want to see what people think strong is? I know he didn't bench much in Orlando or something, but this guy does not play a weak game at all. He has a very good nose for the offensive boards and unlike another player on our team who is a good offensive rebounder Shawne can put the ball back into the basket.

    His defense will come along with the proper coaching and that is what I hope more than anything this year shows us, coaching that is consitant from game to game.

    I think Shawne will grow to a powerforward which will make keeping both him and Diogu hard to do in a few years but for now it is fine. I think Shawne can come in this year and play both forward spots and not suffer. I just don't ever want to see him play guard, EVER.

    Again this three point shooting scares the crap out of me, but I'll give it a chance and pray that Shawne doesn't just float around the arc.

    Ike Diogu. Again I'm not going to hide it, I like Ike. From the first time I he jumped up and absorbed his firt rebound as a Pacer I knew that he was what I would like. The only thing missing was a bestial roar when he grabbed it.

    He has a sweet touch around the basket and unlike others he loves the physical contact. For God's sake we used him to guard Shaq last season a couple of time.

    Does he have faults? Oh heck yes he does, but he is young and raw and most of all there is something there to work with. That is why I am not in a tizzy over not having a 1st round pick this year. I consider Ike to be our pick and unless you are talking a high lottery pick I don't think there are going to be a lot of players a whole lot better over the next couple of years.

    Diogu, Williams and Granger IMO make a hell of a potent combo of players. If for some reason we could add Bynum I think our front court is set for several years to come.

    Troy Murphy. Sweet Lord almighty as bad as Stephen Jackson was treated at the fieldhouse this poor S.O.B. is treated just as bad on here. Is there even one person who will come out and defend Troy?

    Here let me make this statement. I consider Troy Murphy and Jeff Foster the exact same player with the exact opposite skill sets. As repulsive as many of you find Troy's lack of defense I find Fosters lack of offense as repulsive. I consider them the same at rebounding which is to say I don't think either of them are great rebounders, yes that's right I said it Jeff Foster is not a great rebounder.

    Anyway again back to the three point shooting thing, this one really scares me. Will Troy ever go inside the three point arc again is the only question I have? I like the fact that he opens the floor up with his shot but I don't want him just firing 3's all day long.

    Look I'll say this. He is not a great player by any sense of the word, however IMO he is nowhere near as bad as many of you are making him out to be either. Is he overpaid? Yes. Are there several of our players overpaid? Also yes. But at the end of the day unless you are talking about why we can or can't make a trade based on high salary I still have no idea why so many of you care about what players get paid.

    Do I think Troy is the answer to what ails this team? No, but I do believe he can be a solid contributer to the long term success of our franchise.

    Mike Dunleavy. Again I am astounded about the heat this guy draws. I wonder maybe if Mike didn't start wearing loud clothes, showing gang signs and being more demonstrative on the floor if some of you wouldn't change your tune. In other words I wonder if he isn't a little to Vinella for some of you and by that I don't mean white, I mean plain. There is nothing fancy about Mikes game, he just goes out there and plays a solid game for the most part all game long.

    Could he be a better defender? Yes, but I also think Mike would be fine in the right defensive system. A system the Dick Harter will be bringing here very soon.

    In fact I look forward to Dick Harters defenses next year more than I look forward to almost anything else.

    I am just very very happy that we will once again be having good defensive coach on our team.

    I have come to the conclusion after hearing interviews with Mike Brown and frankly just going back and thinking about the last 4 seasons that Rick Carlisls was not a very good defensive coach. He was just a shot manager on the offensive end and that kept scores low and the ball in the Pacers hands for long periods of time, that does not make him a good defensive coach.

    I digress

    Back to Dunleavy. I think some of you are in for a long few years because I don't think Mike is going anywhere and I don't think that the new coach will be inclined to bench Mike.

    Jeff Foster. If a certain other Pacer is no longer here I can live with Jeff staying on in a diminished capacity. However if the other player is still here I'm sorry I want Foster gone, well ok I guess I better see what the new coach will do with him first. Isiah didn't go to Foster very often, only Rick with his system used Jeff as a safety blanket.

    Look it's not like I think the guy is a bad player, I don't, I just think his skill set does not work with the other player in our frontcourt. But like all Pacers he gets a fresh start at the beginning of the season, although I am not sure that right now his best value to us is the fact that he is one of the few players who you could get decent value in return for.

    Marquis Daniels. Daniels goes down and our team tanks. Do I think Quis is that good? No not really however the skill set he has was one thing other players on our squad lack. He could creat his own shot and unlike Jamaal when he creats his own shot they have a better than average chance that they will go in.

    However I'll just say it now. I hope the Pacers are looking to move him. The last thing we need on this club right now is another player who we need, but can't count on because of injury. Is his knee his fault? No, but right now that doesn't matter. If we can get somebody of equal or slightly less value I hope we are persuing this because what he has wrong with his knee will not go away. I like him, I think he could help the club, but at the end of the day I am willing to take a lesser player who will play more often than this.

    David Harrison. Needless to say when I saw that Rick Carlisle told the Denver paper that Harrison he thought Harrison was going to be a very good player one day I didn't know whether to laugh, cry or puke.

    I'll be honest I don't know what to think anymore. For a long time I blamed Rick, then for almost all of last season I blamed Harrison and I think that is where I still am at.

    However I just can not help but wonder if maybe there was a more stable atmosphere and David yanked in and out of games if maybe just maybe he wouldn't at least develop into a servicable backup.

    As it stands now I just don't see how David stays in the NBA beyond a couple of years other than his size.

    But the damned thing is he has some skills. Now did Rick not know how to utilize those skill? I don't know. I do know that he has to be the dumbest player I've ever seen in many ways but then I've also seen times where I keep dreaming that he will turn it around because of something he has done on the floor.

    First thing first I want the new coach/Bird/ Walsh and every member of the Simon family to have a meeting with David and say this. You won't be pulled for making a mistake, you will however be pulled immedatley and you will not go back in the game if you turn and complain to a ref. I don't care if he is hammered right now for the next couple of years David has to shut his mouth. He is to demonstrative and complains to much and now IMO he is a marked man.

    Still I don't know what to think about the guy.

    Darrell Armstrong. Ok, I soured very rapidly on Armstrong at the end of the year. No not because of his play. I never said anything bad against his play, in fact many times I wish he was running the point down at the end of the season.

    No what did it to me was the game he melted down vs. the refs. and and to be restrained and drug off of the floor. I don't remember the circumstance, I don't remember the opponet, I don't remember the ref. All I know was that it was totally uncalled for and frankly a *****ty example for a guy who was supposed to be there to set the example.

    While I like him as a player and he seems to be involved in the overall bench, I don't think I will be offended if he is not back this year.

    Keith McCloud. I like him. Solid backup, solid player on both sides of the floor. If you tell me that Keith was our first backup p.g. next year I will tell you I have no problem with it. I don't think Keith is a starter, but as a backup I think he will be fine.

    This brings me to Jamaal Tinsley.

    Frankly I don't see where there can be a major improvement by him next year. However I will have a wait and see approach. If you tell me that Rick being gone will somehow cause him to not be injured then fine. If you tell me that Rick being gone will mean that Jamaal will now play pressure defense fine.

    Look I used to be a big Jamaal fan but I just soured on him. But I am willing (I guess) to see if maybe there wasn't a real problem between him and Carlisle. We'll see.

    I'm not going to talk about Marshall and Greene because we didn't get to see enough to know anything more than they probably didn't need to be on the floor a whole lot more than they were. Well that's not entirely true. In fact if Greene is in with another point guard he actually can be a defensive differance maker. Actually now that I think about is under O'Briens defenseive schemer I wonder if maybe we won't see more from Greene? We'll see.

    Maceo Baston. If ever there is player I feel sorry for this is him. Whenever he got the chance to play he showed he could play in the NBA, but because of Foster and the other player Baston barely ever got off of the bench. Then when he did start getting the time he broke his toe and wasn't able to play at the same level anymore.

    Look I like him and think he could be a solid contributer to winning team. But there is just no real room for him here next season if we don't make other moves. Now if we move another player for a center from L.A., as long as we don't take back anther power forward with him then he could get some time. But if we don't move the other player there is just not enough time to go around and he is to old to be waiting.

    While I like him for his sake I think he should opt out and just move on even if it is for less money.

    Ok, there I managed to talk about most of our players and didn't even once digress into talking about Walsh or O'Neal. It about killed me but I did it.

    I will make another post probably entitled "Everything I think is wrong with the team" and talk about them.

    Anyway let me hit anthother couple of topics before I move on.

    I am sending out my respect to the Detroit Pistons. I am not saying they are at an end, however I do think there are likely changes ahead on the horizen for them. I know most of the people on this board hate them, but I respect the job that Joe D. has done putting together a real honest to God team of good players. No superstars just very good players. For the past 6 years through three coach's Detroit has been one of the best teams in the league and frankly I think they have done a great job.

    Now to Rick Carlisle.

    I think I have resigned myself to the fact that I think I'm glad he is gone. I don't think he was a bad coach, far from it. But for whatever reason he just does not get along with his players and I am not 100% sure why.

    I do hope that whoever comes here will not employ the same old ball controlling offense that Rick used. There is nothing wrong with low post offense but it has to be a weapon, not the only weapon in the arsenal.

    At the end of the day it was just time to move on.

    Ok, I've got to get out of here for now. If you made it this far then you have more patience than most people or you are high and staring at the screen blankly.

    Rest assured though there is another part coming and in that I will be more inclined to take on tougher subjects.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

    Frankly Peck, you should have put in your JO comments. I am ready for a change and if JO brings a real center to this team then that is probably a
    good thing. The other thing this team desparately needs is a shooting
    gaurd, more so than a point IMHO. Good job.
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

      OK..Pacer Nation heeeee's BAAAaaaack! And none too soon. You have spurred the following "One-liners".

      "David Harrison will be our starting center by Christmas."
      I said that to you once at a forum party..........can I take it back now?

      Can the new coach prevent Tinsley from going "Tin Cup" on us? Can the new coach prevent Sinuspoutinitis?

      I join the Troy Murphy fan club.....because Brad Miller is too broken down and too expensive to bring back (and beside, any trade that would bring him back would prolly also require the return of a certain knucklehead).

      Troy should be our bu-5 while I think Jeff would look real good in a Spurs uni.
      I wonder if the Spurs would give us Tony Parker for Jeff Foster???? Hmmm where's the trade checker?

      I Like Ike...we need to have a full-time opening for him.

      Army certainly didn't score points as a coach with his meltdown.

      We still need a big-man coach.

      As big of a fan of the ABA as I was, I wouldn't mind if the NBA dropped the 3-pointer. While they're at it they can bring back the Center Jump....and do away with the idiotic "flagrant foul" rule.

      Gee, I thought I was the only closet Marquis Daniel doubter.

      While I feel bad for David Craig and his demotion, the med staff made a bad series of blunders with Tins and Bender and someone had to pay the price.
      (I see people holding this against LB in other threads and needed to comment on it)

      If we are in a full-blown rebuild then I want to see our youngsters on the floor alot this year, let us see what they've got.

      I'm satisfied with the JOb hiring..for now.

      What happend to my Elmer Fudd pix down by the flag and can my avatar be made a bit bigger, please?

      OK...we've seen the trailor....when is the main feature coming?

      Post more often


      (what On-line store????)
      Last edited by indygeezer; 06-05-2007, 07:08 AM.
      Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

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      • #4
        Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

        Originally posted by indygeezer View Post
        (what On-line store????)

        Yeah!! Link? PM if necessary
        {o,o}
        |)__)
        -"-"-

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        • #5
          Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

          Originally posted by Peck View Post
          Oh hell let's start with Granger.

          Hmmmm....I'm curious about Danny. He has flaws and there are times he makes mistakes that you have to wonder about. But then again he has times where he leaves me wondering why are we not making the focus of the offense right now?

          I think I'm a little scared about the new coach's love with the three point shot and the fact that Danny can fall into the trap of just standing outside jacking up the three.

          However Danny did prove this year that he listens to criticism and after falling into the three point trap he settled down and started going to the rim. Danny going to the rim is a good thing.

          What I like the most about Danny is his willingness to take contact. There is nothing weak about Danny and the fact that he is fearless inside just makes him more of a threat IMO.

          I'll go out on a limb now and say this. I think this is the year that Danny takes over the leadership of the club. By that I don't mean team Captain, I mean the on floor leader of the club. I think he will average 18ppg and grab between 6-8 rpg. I believe that on the defensive end he will fit right into O'Brians plans as an aggressive ball hawk.

          I don't think Danny will every be a superstar but I do believe he can be one of the better players at his position in the east and he can be the anchor of a good team oriented offense.
          in total agreement about your danny assessment. i also worry about O'Bs offense and turning danny into an arc lurker. hopefully he'll have figured out that he is most successful when combining his threat of being able to hit outside shots with his driving to the rim.

          Shawne Williams. Look I'll just say it now. I like him. From the first time I saw him play last fall I was asking people with me what the hell people were talking about when they were calling him weak. If he is weak then I want to see what people think strong is? I know he didn't bench much in Orlando or something, but this guy does not play a weak game at all. He has a very good nose for the offensive boards and unlike another player on our team who is a good offensive rebounder Shawne can put the ball back into the basket.

          His defense will come along with the proper coaching and that is what I hope more than anything this year shows us, coaching that is consitant from game to game.

          I think Shawne will grow to a powerforward which will make keeping both him and Diogu hard to do in a few years but for now it is fine. I think Shawne can come in this year and play both forward spots and not suffer. I just don't ever want to see him play guard, EVER.

          Again this three point shooting scares the crap out of me, but I'll give it a chance and pray that Shawne doesn't just float around the arc.
          same concerns about floating around the arc. i am more on jay's bandwagon when it comes to shawne (i think its jay...) in believing that shawne is tremendously overhyped. i don't think he's a bust or anything, i just didn't see these flashes of brilliance last season. what i saw was a rookie that proved he was a solid draft choice, even if we did pass up on PGs and SGs.

          Ike Diogu. Again I'm not going to hide it, I like Ike. From the first time I he jumped up and absorbed his firt rebound as a Pacer I knew that he was what I would like. The only thing missing was a bestial roar when he grabbed it.

          He has a sweet touch around the basket and unlike others he loves the physical contact. For God's sake we used him to guard Shaq last season a couple of time.

          Does he have faults? Oh heck yes he does, but he is young and raw and most of all there is something there to work with. That is why I am not in a tizzy over not having a 1st round pick this year. I consider Ike to be our pick and unless you are talking a high lottery pick I don't think there are going to be a lot of players a whole lot better over the next couple of years.
          i really wish there was a switch we could flip on and turn ike into a barkley type of player - a guy who you rarely noticed was the same height as jordan but playing much bigger players. i want him to be a little smarter and more aggressive on the defensive end. oh, and for god sakes if you're going to be a talented post player you're going to have to learn to pass out of the double team.

          Diogu, Williams and Granger IMO make a hell of a potent combo of players. If for some reason we could add Bynum I think our front court is set for several years to come.
          we can only hope.

          Troy Murphy. Sweet Lord almighty as bad as Stephen Jackson was treated at the fieldhouse this poor S.O.B. is treated just as bad on here. Is there even one person who will come out and defend Troy?

          Here let me make this statement. I consider Troy Murphy and Jeff Foster the exact same player with the exact opposite skill sets. As repulsive as many of you find Troy's lack of defense I find Fosters lack of offense as repulsive. I consider them the same at rebounding which is to say I don't think either of them are great rebounders, yes that's right I said it Jeff Foster is not a great rebounder.

          Anyway again back to the three point shooting thing, this one really scares me. Will Troy ever go inside the three point arc again is the only question I have? I like the fact that he opens the floor up with his shot but I don't want him just firing 3's all day long.

          Look I'll say this. He is not a great player by any sense of the word, however IMO he is nowhere near as bad as many of you are making him out to be either. Is he overpaid? Yes. Are there several of our players overpaid? Also yes. But at the end of the day unless you are talking about why we can or can't make a trade based on high salary I still have no idea why so many of you care about what players get paid.

          Do I think Troy is the answer to what ails this team? No, but I do believe he can be a solid contributer to the long term success of our franchise.
          the problem is murphy is making the salary of a guy that should be playing big minutes for a team, but when he was playing for us last season the only time you noticed him was on the defensive end when he would let people like webber or rasheed walk all over him. my hope is that with a full year in a new situation that murphy can return to a solid double double guy and with harter/obrien preaching defense murphy can drink that koolaid. the biggest problem is his salary and length of his contract. it puts us in a bind when we would need to re-sign danny, ike and bynum if we land him. murphy isn't exceptional at anything and the warriors were having a difficult time moving him before we strolled along so i don't think he's going to have any trade value right now. he could be a contributor but i think he could contribute equally by relieving us of his salary in a trade. i'm willing to see what he does with the new coach and a full season in indiana if we can't move him though.

          Mike Dunleavy. Again I am astounded about the heat this guy draws. I wonder maybe if Mike didn't start wearing loud clothes, showing gang signs and being more demonstrative on the floor if some of you wouldn't change your tune. In other words I wonder if he isn't a little to Vinella for some of you and by that I don't mean white, I mean plain. There is nothing fancy about Mikes game, he just goes out there and plays a solid game for the most part all game long.

          Could he be a better defender? Yes, but I also think Mike would be fine in the right defensive system. A system the Dick Harter will be bringing here very soon.
          i think mike is a good team defender and that harter's coaching can only improve that and hopefully improve one-on-one defense too. i am much more willing to accept dunleavy's contract because while i certainly think its too high, he is quite serviceable. he doesn't disappear like murphy. he takes too many threes for his low percentage so i would like to see him take a step in ala luol deng in chicago and he might see his numbers soar. he certainly helps the offense not necessarily as a playmaker but as a part of it that helps it run more smoothly albeit not showing up in the boxscore. by the way how different is Vinella than Vanilla? i guess im looking for some context...

          ultimately if some team was begging for mike i'd have to seriously consider moving him for financial reasons but i certainly don't find him dead weight.

          In fact I look forward to Dick Harters defenses next year more than I look forward to almost anything else.

          I am just very very happy that we will once again be having good defensive coach on our team.

          I have come to the conclusion after hearing interviews with Mike Brown and frankly just going back and thinking about the last 4 seasons that Rick Carlisls was not a very good defensive coach. He was just a shot manager on the offensive end and that kept scores low and the ball in the Pacers hands for long periods of time, that does not make him a good defensive coach.
          i don't think rick has ever been considered a defensive coach per se. i think rick has been considered an offensive genius who has a style that works with a really strong defense. look at the seasons with mike brown as an assistant or when they both (carlisle and harter) were assistants for bird. it was when brown left and we had o'neill and then TPTB pushed him out in favor of person (WTF?!???) that rick's offensive style combined with the players on the roster that the pacers offense seemed to show holes.

          i am firmly in the "I LOVE RICK CARLISLE" camp. and i don't understand the concept of getting rid of him and making sweeping changes to the lineup at the same time. i think this last year was unsuccessful because you took away the PG that could score (AJ) and made danny granger develop into the stud 3pt shooter (Al didn't start shooting them until closer to the trade and I doubt Rick wanted Troy to camp out around the arc) because of trading AJ, Austin and Peja.

          Jeff Foster. If a certain other Pacer is no longer here I can live with Jeff staying on in a diminished capacity. However if the other player is still here I'm sorry I want Foster gone, well ok I guess I better see what the new coach will do with him first. Isiah didn't go to Foster very often, only Rick with his system used Jeff as a safety blanket.

          Look it's not like I think the guy is a bad player, I don't, I just think his skill set does not work with the other player in our frontcourt. But like all Pacers he gets a fresh start at the beginning of the season, although I am not sure that right now his best value to us is the fact that he is one of the few players who you could get decent value in return for.
          i like his energy but his inability to finish a layup disturbs me. if we could somehow genetically combine murphy and foster together, he'd be worth the combined salary of the two. i think depending on the other moves we make, we should probably consider moving foster.

          Marquis Daniels. Daniels goes down and our team tanks. Do I think Quis is that good? No not really however the skill set he has was one thing other players on our squad lack. He could creat his own shot and unlike Jamaal when he creats his own shot they have a better than average chance that they will go in.

          However I'll just say it now. I hope the Pacers are looking to move him. The last thing we need on this club right now is another player who we need, but can't count on because of injury. Is his knee his fault? No, but right now that doesn't matter. If we can get somebody of equal or slightly less value I hope we are persuing this because what he has wrong with his knee will not go away. I like him, I think he could help the club, but at the end of the day I am willing to take a lesser player who will play more often than this.
          i am a quis fan. i don't really think he's overpaid for the production he showed us last year. yes he was injured but that seems to be a theme for our players. even jamaal was basically healthy for all of last season, so i'm not willing to write the guy off yet, when he offers a lot of promise within this new system.

          David Harrison. Needless to say when I saw that Rick Carlisle told the Denver paper that Harrison he thought Harrison was going to be a very good player one day I didn't know whether to laugh, cry or puke.
          what the hell was he supposed to say? "actually, i think david has been a tremendous disappointment as a player and the fact that my former or soon-to-be former employers felt the need to keep him on my roster was a crime against the game of basketball itself. he won't stop *****ing to the refs, he's out of shape and has an IQ somewhere roughly between a cucumber and the worlds largest ball of twine." rick is certainly more of a politician than that... i don't know if you can say the book is completely shut on david. i just would like another team to wait on his progress.

          I'll be honest I don't know what to think anymore. For a long time I blamed Rick, then for almost all of last season I blamed Harrison and I think that is where I still am at.

          However I just can not help but wonder if maybe there was a more stable atmosphere and David yanked in and out of games if maybe just maybe he wouldn't at least develop into a servicable backup.

          As it stands now I just don't see how David stays in the NBA beyond a couple of years other than his size.

          But the damned thing is he has some skills. Now did Rick not know how to utilize those skill? I don't know. I do know that he has to be the dumbest player I've ever seen in many ways but then I've also seen times where I keep dreaming that he will turn it around because of something he has done on the floor.

          First thing first I want the new coach/Bird/ Walsh and every member of the Simon family to have a meeting with David and say this. You won't be pulled for making a mistake, you will however be pulled immedatley and you will not go back in the game if you turn and complain to a ref. I don't care if he is hammered right now for the next couple of years David has to shut his mouth. He is to demonstrative and complains to much and now IMO he is a marked man.

          Still I don't know what to think about the guy.
          i'd be willing to give him ONE more shot IF we bring in bynum and a big-man coaching expert to work with bynum, ike and david. and we have the talk you mentioned above. outside of that, its only a million or so, buy him out or cut him if we can't send him somewhere.

          Darrell Armstrong. Ok, I soured very rapidly on Armstrong at the end of the year. No not because of his play. I never said anything bad against his play, in fact many times I wish he was running the point down at the end of the season.

          No what did it to me was the game he melted down vs. the refs. and and to be restrained and drug off of the floor. I don't remember the circumstance, I don't remember the opponet, I don't remember the ref. All I know was that it was totally uncalled for and frankly a *****ty example for a guy who was supposed to be there to set the example.

          While I like him as a player and he seems to be involved in the overall bench, I don't think I will be offended if he is not back this year.
          as i recall rick was thrown out of the same game. i tend to believe with army that he was trying to fire the team up. we were in the midst of our 11-game losing streak i think. i think he may have taken it too far, but i wasn't offended by it. i'm more offended by mike d'antoni's constant straight-legged, hands-in-pockets convulsing he does after every whistle.

          Keith McCloud. I like him. Solid backup, solid player on both sides of the floor. If you tell me that Keith was our first backup p.g. next year I will tell you I have no problem with it. I don't think Keith is a starter, but as a backup I think he will be fine.
          ditto

          Frankly I don't see where there can be a major improvement by him next year. However I will have a wait and see approach. If you tell me that Rick being gone will somehow cause him to not be injured then fine. If you tell me that Rick being gone will mean that Jamaal will now play pressure defense fine.

          Look I used to be a big Jamaal fan but I just soured on him. But I am willing (I guess) to see if maybe there wasn't a real problem between him and Carlisle. We'll see.
          i guess i'm with you here too. i see it as jamaal's problem not rick's but he used to be fairly talented, maybe the change of coach will help.

          Maceo Baston. If ever there is player I feel sorry for this is him. Whenever he got the chance to play he showed he could play in the NBA, but because of Foster and the other player Baston barely ever got off of the bench. Then when he did start getting the time he broke his toe and wasn't able to play at the same level anymore.

          Look I like him and think he could be a solid contributer to winning team. But there is just no real room for him here next season if we don't make other moves. Now if we move another player for a center from L.A., as long as we don't take back anther power forward with him then he could get some time. But if we don't move the other player there is just not enough time to go around and he is to old to be waiting.

          While I like him for his sake I think he should opt out and just move on even if it is for less money.
          i think he can find a place on another team, which will disappoint me because i like the guy. but as you said, if we're loaded at that area and need backcourt help we're going to have to let him move on.
          This is the darkest timeline.

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          • #6
            Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

            Great Post. That's probably the closest I've ever come to agreeing with nearly everything somebody's posted.

            I'm glad to see that somebody agrees with me that Shawne Williams is not a guard. I'd put Granger in the same category. They're 3's who can play 4 in a small ball lineup, not 3's who can play 2 (like Dunleavy).

            I like Ike and I firmly believe that if this player you refuse to mention is gone and Ike gets 30 minutes a game that we'll be very happy with his production. Undersized PF's are faring very well in today's NBA. Ike may well be cut in the mold of Elton Brand or Zach Randolph.

            Where I disagree with you is about Marquis Daniels. I'll be sad if he's not on the roster next year. Not hari-kiri sad, but a little bit blue. I'd love to see what he can do at the point, and JOb has said he'll play him there. I'd give him one more year to see if he can get healthy and then move him if he can't. I do believe that the Pacers would have been a playoff team if he'd played all season.

            All that being said, I do believe the Pacers should bring in a combo guard who's a good shooter and defender so that a Daniels injury would not be so devastating. Acie Law, Charlie Bell, and Delonte West are guys who come to mind.
            "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

            - Salman Rushdie

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            • #7
              Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

              Originally posted by owl View Post
              Yeah!! Link? PM if necessary
              Check his avatar.....
              PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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              • #8
                Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                Couple of points.

                Hopefully Dunleavy will be used as a facilitator - someone whom the offense will run through as opposed to someone who will be standing at the 3 point line waiting to end the play - I hope Mike starts the plays. I could see the majority of our offense running through either Daniels or Mike. Especially with our shinny new point guard who will be a defender first and a shooter second.

                As far as to whether Rick is a good defensive coach or not. He let others handle the defense. During his first stint here as an assistant - Harter handled the defense (same thing at Portland) and then when Rick became head coach, Kevin O'Neill handled the defense in Detroit and during the one season here - and of course Mike Brown ran the defense when he was here for two seasons. Rick stayed out of the nuts and bolts of the defense.

                However, and this is a big however - I consider Rick a good defensive head coach. Because he emphasized it and spent a lot of time on defense - just because he didn't do the defense himself doesn't mean that he didn't believe defense was the key - he just let others coach that part of the game, but as the head coach he sets the tone anbd defense was always important.

                The defense was so bad this year proves this whole theory - when Rick doesn't have a good defensive coach things fall apart. In fact I think Rick somewhat took over the defense the last 4 or 5 weeks of the season in an attempt to salvage it.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                  A few thoughts of my own...think of it as my introduction to this board.

                  I'll start with the big issue that is on everyone's mind: JO. But I will say that I am tired of talking about the trade, and I hope everyone else is, too. We got what we got and it's over. Harrington was never fitting into the offense and he was never that good anyway. Jackson had to get out of town. Saranus was terrible. Honestly the player that I miss the most was Powell. He has potential to be pretty decent in the future.

                  But, anyway, as of right now to me the trade is just

                  But back to JO. I think it's time to let him go. With our roster right now, no GM could possibly retool it to the point where we are a championship contender in 2-3 years. And honestly, with all the injuries JO has sustained, there are only 2-3 years left where he'll be putting up 18 and 10 like he is now. I think it's best for both parties to ship him off to LA. LA lives and dies by what Kobe says, and Kobe wants a title NOW without really thinking about the future. If they are able to get JO and also able to get Camby for Brown's expiring like some people say they are, then they have a 2-3 year window to win at least one more title. Granted, after that their franchise might be wrecked for the next 5-7 years and Kobe might want out, but they'll possible get Kobe's title to him right to order, and that's really all they're focusing on right now.

                  I do JO to LA only if we get Bynum and the pick. There is a chance that this kid has the ability to lead our franchise for years to come. It's a gamble, but his play last year suggests that he's rapidly improving. I think that if Bynum develops into a good center, we have a real weapon that many times don't have, because really how many good centers are there out there right now? Say Bynum develops into the league's next great big man...I don't care how unattractive our market may seem to some fans, having a prized center like Bynum in an age where good C's are a premium will attract some free agents to this team. Say Bynum becomes our main contributor in a few years, and then you've got Danny putting in 16-18 a game and Ike contributing down low, being a 12 and 8 player or so. Not to even mention the possible role that Shawne would be playing if he develops into anything Even if at that point our team is like, on the level that say Chicago is right now, that means that we're on the brink of winning a title if we add a little more talent, and say that appeals to someone who can hit a three, like say, an aging Ray Allen who signs on 3 or 4 years down the line. Bynum makes things interesting and could revolutionize everything. Or, he could turn out just to be an alright center. I think he's worth taking the gamble on. It would give us way more than any deal with New York ever could. The NY deal maybe gets us in the playoffs for a few straight years, but I don't see it ever giving us a championship, which is what I want. I've see the team in the ECF enough. I'm ready for the next step, even if it does take maybe a few years of sucking. And I just don't see Boston giving up Al Jefferson for O'Neal, ever.

                  I say the pick because this draft seems to be pretty stacked, and if Bynum screws up, at least maybe we have a good PG or SG for the future. Surely TPTB can't screw up on Bynum AND the pick right?

                  And Odom is a nice little prize. He averaged 16 and 10 on a team with the most aggressive first option in the league. If he can play the 4 for us, I don't really see what's wrong with that.

                  I really like Keith McLeod. He's a good backup PG, nothing more and nothing less. I like him because he seems like a relatively reserved guy who isn't going to cause any AJ-esque drama. In other words, unlike AJ, he knows that he's a backup. I'd sign him for two more years and then let him go on with his inevitable journeyman career if we can find someone a little bit faster and a little bit better in that period of time.

                  Baston is probably going to have to go. Which is a shame because like others I tend to like the guy. I don't think Obie is going to put us in a breakneck offense that often, 3 second rule nonewithstanding. Baston was a run and gun type player in Israel. He'd be a good backup for a team like the Suns or the Warriors or something.

                  Here let me make this statement. I consider Troy Murphy and Jeff Foster the exact same player with the exact opposite skill sets. As repulsive as many of you find Troy's lack of defense I find Fosters lack of offense as repulsive. I consider them the same at rebounding which is to say I don't think either of them are great rebounders, yes that's right I said it Jeff Foster is not a great rebounder.
                  I get what you're saying. It's an interesting dilemma. Players like Dennis Rodman, Jeff, or a Dale Davis type who are good defensive players but horrible offensive players are seen by the fans as "blue collar players" who "work hard to help the team" despite their inferior skill sets. Players with good offensive skills and bad defensive sills are more likely to be seen as lazy and thus disliked by the fans. Maybe it is a bit of a double standard but I think you can see what I'm saying.

                  I like Quis and I hope we hold onto him. He was good in limited time last year due to injury. Like it has been said, he has a skill set that most of the players on this team lack. I am concerned about his knee. Offseason indications point to the knee being "good" but what else would the Pacers say? That his knee is in terrible shape and he's the next Bender? I would shop him around a bit but if we can't get anything definitively good for him, then hold on and see what happens.

                  There will probably be more to come from me as well.

                  The state of Pacer nation is as such that Kravitz is now referring to "what is left of it." If Andrew Bynum ever takes this team to great heights, then we were the fans that were on what was once a very empty bandwagon.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                    I agree on most accounts, but I disagree with the part about your Murphy and Foster evaluation. I've watched Murphy ever since he was a rookie (I lived in Oakland at the time), and I've also watched Foster his whole career. Believe me, they're very different rebounders. Murphy doesn't get those tough rebounds, or those tip-tip-tip rebounds, and he's not nearly the offensive rebounder Foster is. Murphy tends to get long rebounds, or rebounds that only a guy 6'11" or taller can get anyway. He's good at getting position, but he's not good at out toughing anybody to get the rebound.

                    Foster is more of a banger. He's much tougher, and he's much quicker to the ball. He gets in the right position and can out tough and out quick most of his opponents to the ball. He also is excellent at tapping the ball out to give us another possession. I'd consider him a great rebounder.

                    The thing I do like about Murphy is his ability, and willingness to drive to the basket, something rare for a big man. I also like when he comes off a pick n roll and fades to the corner for a 20 footer. He can hit all day long from 20 feet at either corner. I hate when he camps out at the three. I also don't think his defense is as bad as advertised. I just think he needs a coach that's 100% committed to defense like OB and Harter.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                      dcpacersfan, nice "first" post.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                        I'm glad that JO and Management were left out. There are other things in Pacerland.

                        It looks like fans are ready to embrace the potential of Danny, Shawn, Ike, the rumored #19 pick and the new pg everyone is sure we are going to get. Reminds me of the good old days when JO, Al and Jon were going to lead the Pacers to multiple championships. Well those were happier times and I look forward to hearing potential used as a compliment. I just wonder how long it will last.

                        Here's my thing about Mike and Troy. On a team rebuilding I think they are good enough to take minutes away from players we are trying to develop, bad enough to not get us out of the first round in the East and paid enough to restrict our player movement. On a club rebuilding around three forwards they don't fit.

                        I think Peck was taking a did at Foster by comparing him to Murphy. Kinda like JO=Gooden.
                        Last edited by Arcadian; 06-05-2007, 01:22 PM.
                        "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

                        "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                          Originally posted by Peck
                          or do I spend virtually every single breath of mine complaining to no end about them? (DW and JO)
                          Didn't you already choose this option about 5 years ago?




                          However Danny did prove this year that he listens to criticism and after falling into the three point trap he settled down and started going to the rim. Danny going to the rim is a good thing.
                          True. Back in December when I was noticing his bad trend to stand at the arc only, even on breaks, I ran a chart comparing his total points to his 3PA vs FGA ratio. The results at the time showed a clear trend that when he MIXED IT UP MORE he scored more. The nights when all he did was shoot the 3 his scoring was way down typically. The 3 is a weapon in his arsenal, but so is the post and hopefully he can get his dribble-drive on par with those 2 aspects, or even add in a nice catch and shoot ala Dunleavy. To be the #1 scorer for an NBA team you have to have at least 3-4 scoring options in your bag.

                          BTW, you're happy that RC is gone, but who do you think told Danny to drive more? You think he read online posts and decided to tell Rick to shove it? Hardly. Adjustments to player's games have to be attributed to the coaching staff most of all, at least during the regular season.

                          And on that same line, it was clear that Dunleavy started out as a 3pt guy when he got here and once Rick saw that failing he adjusted the play calls to Dun's strength, the catch and shoot mid-range shot where his 2P% went through the roof.

                          We also saw wimpy Troy get less playing time after he showed his lack of defense or tough rebounding (his P48 really lagged behind Foster's in similar minutes).

                          To me all of that and more is mostly on Rick. I like JOBs track record as a defensive coach, but his offenses have ranged from blah to bad. His teams win by keeping the score low and counting on isos and 3pt jacks to get just enough points to win. If you hated 03-04 I'd advise not showing up next season.

                          I liked the 03-04 team so I can live with JOB's approach. I just think too much stock is placed in the coaching change fixing things. You still have to have the car no matter what kind of driver you are.
                          Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 06-05-2007, 01:53 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                            Peck, good post.

                            I think the idea that people hate Dunleavy is overblown. I like Dun fine, I just don't like him as our starting shooting guard. He can't shoot and he's not a guard. Other than that, he's a very nice player. I'd be fine with him as a starting SF if we didn't have Granger, but we do. I'd be fine with him as a backup SF, but I'd like Shawne to get those minutes to see if he's going to develop anything. So where does that put Dun?

                            With Murphy, I just don't see what he brings us. What good is being 7 feet tall if you hang out at the 3pt line? I'd be thrilled if we moved both Foster and Murphy and gave Baston and Ike more minutes, to be honest.

                            Anyway, good to have some more odd thoughts.
                            This space for rent.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd thoughts from the Summer of our discontent

                              Nice first post Peck - uh - I mean welcome back!
                              The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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