Re: This sounds very familiar...
Every fiber of my being is telling me to stay out of this, let it go and just move on. All people are entitled to their own opinions so maybe we should all just collectively hug and celebrate Pacer fandom.
But I've never known when to be smart I guess.
Jay all I can can say is that if the next line coming from you would be "supporting J.O. equals supporting the Pacers" I don't think I would be suprised.
Ok where to start, well where to start that the omnicient BBall hasn't already beaten me to.
Jay says: b) What's so wrong about having your best player - your franchise player - asking to get the ball where he can help his team the most?
There are so many answers to this my head is spinning trying not to just come back with some sarcastic response, but I'll give it a try.
1. Frankly, he's not that good. That's right I said it, he's not that good. What you guys are seeing now in terms of what bad teams look like around very good players is what it was like to be a fan of the Vancouver Grizzlies back in the 90's (that's right we all know where I'm going with this). Shareef Abdur-Rahim was everything for a few seasons that J.O. is right now minus the shot blocking. J.O. is just a 20 and 10 guy. Now that is nothing to sneeze at by any sense of the words, there aren't a lot of players who can do that. However you do not build your entire offensive structure over a guy who is just that. Now if J.O. average 26 ppg. & 12 RPG then your talking true star player, but he doesn't and never has.
The fact that he only get's 20 points a game should say something in itself, our entire offense when he is on the floor is designed so that he can get a shot on most plays.
2. We were 8 games into the season and had a 4-4 record. His wanting to change the offense to suite him (however you want to say it that was the end result) resulted in a cascade of bad things that sent the team into a tailspin that caused the trade that caused an even bigger dive in the standings.
Your buddy and mine (Foster) was brought back in to start. Al was moved to a position that he was no longer able to play at and Danny Granger was moved to the bench. Thus making Quis Daniels and Shawne Williams obtain several DNP-CD's because there was no place for them on the floor.
Now let's examine the Foster issue for a moment shall we? I don't like watching him play any more than you do but here is what I've come to realize.
The Pacers don't want him to be the starter either, every single year that he has started the team has tried to replace him to only wind up having to go back to him because everybody that they try and replace him with is either truely a forward or is crazy (Harrison).
Now here is my question to you. Why do they need to put Jeff in the game? Well because Jeff is in there to guard the better offensive players in the post on the other team? Why is this I ask?
Let's see I think there is another player on the team who is 6' 11" tall and weighs 260lbs and has a muscular frame. From what I'm told he was, until he was injured, (again) the leading cadidate for D.P.O.Y. (well if you listen to people on here anyway).
Why do we need Foster in there again? Prime example go back and watch the game vs. the Magic. Look at who guarded who.
Most of the time it was Jeff Foster on Dwight Howard and it was Jermaine O'Neal on Tonnie Battie.
Now go to the other end of the floor. Tonie Battie was on Jeff Foster and Dwight Howard was straight up on Jermaine O'neal.
Why is this? You and I both know the answer to this. Jermaine O'Neal does not like physical contact. This goes back to his first season here.
3. Help his team the most? That's an interesting way of putting it.
I'll ask you what I asked you two or three days after we heard about the "heated discussion".
Do you honestly think for one moment that J.O. would have marched into that office and demanded that the ball be fed more to (pick any player here) because he felt that the team was being hurt by focusing so much on himself? The answer is no, he went in there for Jermaine O'Neal and let's not kid ourselves otherwise.
The team was 4-4 with two new starters and several new bench players all trying to adapt to a new offense that everybody (other than J.O.) on the Pacers wanted to run.
We had one bad loss and boom, we must make sure that J.O. gets more low post shots.
Now I'm not opposed to J.O. getting more low post shots & frankly if you want to say that it's Rick's fault for not figuring out a better way to do it I won't argue with you. But for 4 years now (at least) getting J.O. more low post shots means that the Pacers must all assume the position (two players stand at the three point line on opposite ends of each other, p.g. must be at the elbow to execute an entry pass and Jeff Foster must be in position to sumo wrestle bigger players) all so J.O. can get some low post love.
What J.O. needs are new team mates. He needs Steve Kerr to be the point guard, Reggie Miller to be the shooting guard, Glenn Rice to be the Small Forward and Ben Wallace to be the Center. That way everybody can knock down the three when he decides to finally pass out of the triple team and Ben doesn't need to many shots to be happy.
Helping the team, IMO, would be doing what the coach asks of you and not dictating how the game should be played.
You would have lost your mind if Ron Artest had demanded the same treatment and you would have been right to do so.
Jay then say's: "Too bad he doesn't get much support from his coaches and teammates."
To me this is the old Allen Iverson argument. Allen can't win because his team mates aren't good enough. Yet year after year after year good players are moved away because they can't play with Allen Iverson because he dominates the ball to much.
IMO, same thing goes for J.O.
Jermaine & Jalen can't play together, goodbye Jalen (yes I know no loss there), Jermaine & Ron can't get along, goodbye Ron (again he was nuts and disgrace our entire team so no loss there) now he can't play with Al (this I think will be his undoing with TPTB & I'll try and explain why in a moment)
Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest big man to ever play but he didn't win a damn thing until he melded in with a great team and focused on being part of a machine and not the machine itself.
Jermaine while being a great player will never be part of anything until he realizes that he is not the show.
Absorb this for a moment will you & trust me it pains me to say this as much as it will pain you to read it.
Jermaine O'Neal has not been on anything other than a poor or mediocre team without Ron Artest.
Now is it J.O.'s fault that Ron is nuts? No, but one of Ron's biggest problems here was that he was stiffled offensively. Now you and Ragnar and other are immediately going to scream Rick Carlisle.
But before you do answer me this.
In Detroit Rick did not have a post dominated offense. He may still have been a control freak (I won't deny that) but the Pistons were not a low post half court offense. After the brawl and after Jermaine's injury (whatever one it was that time) the Pacers were not a low post half court offense.
If you will recall Rick was in charge of our offense during the Bird years, you would hardly call us a low post half court offense. Half court yes, but certainly not the grind it out dribble dribble dribble back to the basket turn around fadeaway jump shot that we get from Jermaine. Jackson was the low post offense on that team and he used it to start the offense not to grind it to a halt.
The only time that Rick Carlisle has had a low post grind it out bore the opponet and the fans to sleep offense is when Jermaine O'Neal is on the floor.
Even then for 8 games Rick tried something else.
Yet that wasn't good enough for someone was it? 8 games 8 new players a .500% record and it was time to put his foot down and get more low post shots, translations everybody else must adjust to me.
Jay says: "You want him gone? You really believe the team can play without him like they did in the second half against San Antonio for a 30-game college season? Ha. (No f'ing way.) And certainly not for an 82-game NBA season.
Subtract JO from this team for a pick and other future-type considerations, this is an 16-22 win team. For a few seasons. You want a ping-pong balls, that's a sure way to get ping-pong balls. This is not the time for addition-by-subtraction. Getting rid of Artest, Jackson, and Saras were the right times for addition-by-subtraction, but not JO."
Oh the sweet sweet irony. I believe it wasn't but three years ago someone else said almost the same thing, but they were talking about Ron Artest.
Here is the truth though. With J.O. or without J.O. this team is going nowhere. It needs a real and true fresh start. Now that doesn't mean winning 20 games for a few years for the hopes to get the #1 pick to change our lives.
But until we either get rid of a player who demands that we all force the ball into him whenever things go wrong or completely restructure the team so that it suite him (see my above team of Wallace, Kerr, Rice & Miller) we will be stuck in the one thing that is as bad as stinking. (mediocrity)
Being Mediocre means you make the playoffs (Walsh's dream) yet you do nothing there. It means you win anywhere from 38 to 42 games and your fan base while not being electric will not be the empty seats we have now.
However being mediocre means you can't get the good players in the draft because they generally go higher than you pick.
I don't know why I'm wasting my time on this, everybody's mind is made up.
Look at it like this, at least I didn't compare him to John Koncak.
Every fiber of my being is telling me to stay out of this, let it go and just move on. All people are entitled to their own opinions so maybe we should all just collectively hug and celebrate Pacer fandom.
But I've never known when to be smart I guess.
Jay all I can can say is that if the next line coming from you would be "supporting J.O. equals supporting the Pacers" I don't think I would be suprised.
Ok where to start, well where to start that the omnicient BBall hasn't already beaten me to.
Jay says: b) What's so wrong about having your best player - your franchise player - asking to get the ball where he can help his team the most?
There are so many answers to this my head is spinning trying not to just come back with some sarcastic response, but I'll give it a try.
1. Frankly, he's not that good. That's right I said it, he's not that good. What you guys are seeing now in terms of what bad teams look like around very good players is what it was like to be a fan of the Vancouver Grizzlies back in the 90's (that's right we all know where I'm going with this). Shareef Abdur-Rahim was everything for a few seasons that J.O. is right now minus the shot blocking. J.O. is just a 20 and 10 guy. Now that is nothing to sneeze at by any sense of the words, there aren't a lot of players who can do that. However you do not build your entire offensive structure over a guy who is just that. Now if J.O. average 26 ppg. & 12 RPG then your talking true star player, but he doesn't and never has.
The fact that he only get's 20 points a game should say something in itself, our entire offense when he is on the floor is designed so that he can get a shot on most plays.
2. We were 8 games into the season and had a 4-4 record. His wanting to change the offense to suite him (however you want to say it that was the end result) resulted in a cascade of bad things that sent the team into a tailspin that caused the trade that caused an even bigger dive in the standings.
Your buddy and mine (Foster) was brought back in to start. Al was moved to a position that he was no longer able to play at and Danny Granger was moved to the bench. Thus making Quis Daniels and Shawne Williams obtain several DNP-CD's because there was no place for them on the floor.
Now let's examine the Foster issue for a moment shall we? I don't like watching him play any more than you do but here is what I've come to realize.
The Pacers don't want him to be the starter either, every single year that he has started the team has tried to replace him to only wind up having to go back to him because everybody that they try and replace him with is either truely a forward or is crazy (Harrison).
Now here is my question to you. Why do they need to put Jeff in the game? Well because Jeff is in there to guard the better offensive players in the post on the other team? Why is this I ask?
Let's see I think there is another player on the team who is 6' 11" tall and weighs 260lbs and has a muscular frame. From what I'm told he was, until he was injured, (again) the leading cadidate for D.P.O.Y. (well if you listen to people on here anyway).
Why do we need Foster in there again? Prime example go back and watch the game vs. the Magic. Look at who guarded who.
Most of the time it was Jeff Foster on Dwight Howard and it was Jermaine O'Neal on Tonnie Battie.
Now go to the other end of the floor. Tonie Battie was on Jeff Foster and Dwight Howard was straight up on Jermaine O'neal.
Why is this? You and I both know the answer to this. Jermaine O'Neal does not like physical contact. This goes back to his first season here.
3. Help his team the most? That's an interesting way of putting it.
I'll ask you what I asked you two or three days after we heard about the "heated discussion".
Do you honestly think for one moment that J.O. would have marched into that office and demanded that the ball be fed more to (pick any player here) because he felt that the team was being hurt by focusing so much on himself? The answer is no, he went in there for Jermaine O'Neal and let's not kid ourselves otherwise.
The team was 4-4 with two new starters and several new bench players all trying to adapt to a new offense that everybody (other than J.O.) on the Pacers wanted to run.
We had one bad loss and boom, we must make sure that J.O. gets more low post shots.
Now I'm not opposed to J.O. getting more low post shots & frankly if you want to say that it's Rick's fault for not figuring out a better way to do it I won't argue with you. But for 4 years now (at least) getting J.O. more low post shots means that the Pacers must all assume the position (two players stand at the three point line on opposite ends of each other, p.g. must be at the elbow to execute an entry pass and Jeff Foster must be in position to sumo wrestle bigger players) all so J.O. can get some low post love.
What J.O. needs are new team mates. He needs Steve Kerr to be the point guard, Reggie Miller to be the shooting guard, Glenn Rice to be the Small Forward and Ben Wallace to be the Center. That way everybody can knock down the three when he decides to finally pass out of the triple team and Ben doesn't need to many shots to be happy.
Helping the team, IMO, would be doing what the coach asks of you and not dictating how the game should be played.
You would have lost your mind if Ron Artest had demanded the same treatment and you would have been right to do so.
Jay then say's: "Too bad he doesn't get much support from his coaches and teammates."
To me this is the old Allen Iverson argument. Allen can't win because his team mates aren't good enough. Yet year after year after year good players are moved away because they can't play with Allen Iverson because he dominates the ball to much.
IMO, same thing goes for J.O.
Jermaine & Jalen can't play together, goodbye Jalen (yes I know no loss there), Jermaine & Ron can't get along, goodbye Ron (again he was nuts and disgrace our entire team so no loss there) now he can't play with Al (this I think will be his undoing with TPTB & I'll try and explain why in a moment)
Wilt Chamberlain was the greatest big man to ever play but he didn't win a damn thing until he melded in with a great team and focused on being part of a machine and not the machine itself.
Jermaine while being a great player will never be part of anything until he realizes that he is not the show.
Absorb this for a moment will you & trust me it pains me to say this as much as it will pain you to read it.
Jermaine O'Neal has not been on anything other than a poor or mediocre team without Ron Artest.
Now is it J.O.'s fault that Ron is nuts? No, but one of Ron's biggest problems here was that he was stiffled offensively. Now you and Ragnar and other are immediately going to scream Rick Carlisle.
But before you do answer me this.
In Detroit Rick did not have a post dominated offense. He may still have been a control freak (I won't deny that) but the Pistons were not a low post half court offense. After the brawl and after Jermaine's injury (whatever one it was that time) the Pacers were not a low post half court offense.
If you will recall Rick was in charge of our offense during the Bird years, you would hardly call us a low post half court offense. Half court yes, but certainly not the grind it out dribble dribble dribble back to the basket turn around fadeaway jump shot that we get from Jermaine. Jackson was the low post offense on that team and he used it to start the offense not to grind it to a halt.
The only time that Rick Carlisle has had a low post grind it out bore the opponet and the fans to sleep offense is when Jermaine O'Neal is on the floor.
Even then for 8 games Rick tried something else.
Yet that wasn't good enough for someone was it? 8 games 8 new players a .500% record and it was time to put his foot down and get more low post shots, translations everybody else must adjust to me.
Jay says: "You want him gone? You really believe the team can play without him like they did in the second half against San Antonio for a 30-game college season? Ha. (No f'ing way.) And certainly not for an 82-game NBA season.
Subtract JO from this team for a pick and other future-type considerations, this is an 16-22 win team. For a few seasons. You want a ping-pong balls, that's a sure way to get ping-pong balls. This is not the time for addition-by-subtraction. Getting rid of Artest, Jackson, and Saras were the right times for addition-by-subtraction, but not JO."
Oh the sweet sweet irony. I believe it wasn't but three years ago someone else said almost the same thing, but they were talking about Ron Artest.
Here is the truth though. With J.O. or without J.O. this team is going nowhere. It needs a real and true fresh start. Now that doesn't mean winning 20 games for a few years for the hopes to get the #1 pick to change our lives.
But until we either get rid of a player who demands that we all force the ball into him whenever things go wrong or completely restructure the team so that it suite him (see my above team of Wallace, Kerr, Rice & Miller) we will be stuck in the one thing that is as bad as stinking. (mediocrity)
Being Mediocre means you make the playoffs (Walsh's dream) yet you do nothing there. It means you win anywhere from 38 to 42 games and your fan base while not being electric will not be the empty seats we have now.
However being mediocre means you can't get the good players in the draft because they generally go higher than you pick.
I don't know why I'm wasting my time on this, everybody's mind is made up.
Look at it like this, at least I didn't compare him to John Koncak.
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