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An open honest discussion about...

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  • #1

    An open honest discussion about...

    Jeff Foster.

    Look in years past I've been extremely critical of Jeff. Well, somewhere over the past two seasons I've come to peace with the idea that Jeff was not really ever my problem. I have in my mind what a person who plays defense in the pivot should be & well frankly Jeff isn't it. It's not that he plays poorly, that is far from the truth. In fact Jeff is a good defender. Now I will never be accused of being like U.B. in my support of his defensive abilities, but I do have a basic appreciation of him game.

    He has a great attitude, appears to be an outstanding team mate & is willing to do things that maybe others aren't so willing to do.

    He is a good rebounder to boot.

    Now having said that & I have intentionally waited till after he has had a good game to ask/discuss the following.

    Can the Pacers really afford to have a player on the floor who is so void of offense for the length of time he is out there?

    Yes, somebody has to do the dirty work & no not everybody can have 8-10 plays run for them a game. But his inability now to hit basic layups not only causes my neveres to stand on end but at what point in time does it hurt the team?

    Now before anybody goes there let me address this first. How can a person who was a fan of Dale Davis ever dare to criticize a player for lack of offense.

    Simple, Jeff Foster makes Dale Davis seem like George Gervin.

    Dale, as inept at offense that he was, still could be counted on to hit layups for the most part & even on rare occasions could step all the way back about 3 feet & hit a shot.

    It seems to me Jeff right now cannot hit, well frankly anything other than a dunk & he is even starting to scare me with this.

    Why does this matter? Well for one because teams don't have to guard him they can rotate players around to help guard other players.

    Another reason? This may very well be part of the reason we are seeing Jamaal Iverson on our team. Rick or maybe Jamaal may feel the need to increase scoring from other positions to compensate for the pure utter lack of offense that comes from our center spot.

    I guess what I'm saying is, what can be done to improve this? For reasons that have been well documented here the team is probably going to start him until something makes them not so we are stuck with this.

    For those of you basketball guru's (I'm looking your way thunderbird) is there some fundamental flaw you see that causes Jeff to be so poor on offense. I'm telling you Granville Waiters was an offensive machine compared to what Jeff is right now.

    I've read in the past from Scott H. that he believes that Jeff was flawed by the team because of their over emphasis that they placed on him rebounding, defending & helping to open up space for the shooters.

    I've read others who seem to think it's just purely confidence that causes Jeff to do what he does.

    I'm saying I have no idea, but to quote the immortal general from "War Games" I'd p!ss on a spark plug right now if I thought it would help.

    What can be done, what is being done & what should be done to get his offense to the point of at least just being bad.

    Now here is where I am going to probably lose several of you but please understand I do NOT mean this as an insult to Jeff, it's just an honest opinion.

    There are a very few special players that are so good at one thing or another that they can be a weak offensive player & still get along. Ben Wallace comes to mind.

    Jeff, while good at rebounding & defense, is in no way a star at either nor is he so good at those that he can afford to be weak on the offensive end.

    That is just my opinion on the matter.

    Now what is yours?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: An open honest discussion about...

    Honestly, I think Jeff is a victim of his own celebrity, meaning that he really should be a 2nd unit big man, but due to the dearth of legit big men in the league, he gets to start, and we are stuck with him. I think this is also why we gambled on Harrison the year we did, because we knew the situation at Center was tenuous at best. If Jeff were coming off the bench, he could spend 20+ MPG leaving it all out on the floor, mopping up for the 2nd unit guys who aren't as good shooting the ball. That's his ideal role, but I don't think he'll ever play that role, unless we luck into an oustanding big man in the near future.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: An open honest discussion about...

      Originally posted by Eindar View Post
      Honestly, I think Jeff is a victim of his own celebrity, meaning that he really should be a 2nd unit big man,-snip-. If Jeff were coming off the bench, he could spend 20+ MPG leaving it all out on the floor, mopping up for the 2nd unit guys who aren't as good shooting the ball. That's his ideal role, but I don't think he'll ever play that role, unless we luck into an oustanding big man in the near future.
      But JO could play center. Isn't he an outstanding big man? Al could play PF. Granger could play SF. Jeff could come off the bench.

      So it does go deeper.

      It's not just that Jeff doesn't score per se'.... it's that he misses bunnies. Did Rodman miss bunnies like that? Dale Davis? Ben Wallace?

      I'm not sure what the problem is... but I'm interested in hearing the theories.

      I missed tonight's game entirely so Jeff could've went 10-10 from the floor with 5-5 3's for all I know.

      -Bball
      Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

      ------

      "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

      -John Wooden

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: An open honest discussion about...

        Eh, let's get real. We all know, and have had it proven for us, that JO's body won't hold up if forced to guard the other team's best post threat every night.

        As for Foster missing layups, I think he's got some sort of mental block about it. This is also why he can nail a 15-foot jumper in preseason games, and can't make an uncontested layup in an actual game. I seriously think the only thing that will help him improve in this area is therapy.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: An open honest discussion about...

          In my opinion, I think he is too quick for his own good.. whenever he gets a pass near the goal or gets an offensive rebound, he doesnt square off (like what dale does) but shoot it quickly (maybe afraid of getting block) which i think causes him to miss..

          maybe this is because he doesnt have that strong lower body strength, and gets off balance when getting bump, so he compensate by jumping quickly...

          maybe this explains why (as PECK would say) Jeff dont get those though rebounds...

          just my opinions...

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: An open honest discussion about...

            I think Jeff jumps too quick on his rebounds. Due to his height and tremendous leaping ability he is simply worried about hitting his head on the rim. This causes him to involuntarly close his eyes at that crucial time. It causes him to miss.

            I had the same problem in high school.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: An open honest discussion about...

              I get concerned about his offense as well. I also think he shoots "too fast". How often on those missed lay ups does he come up short/soft? Usually it rockets off the rim or backboard.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: An open honest discussion about...

                I've said for 3 and a half seasons now - that if the Pacers find a better big guy than Jeff that I'd be in favor of Jeff coming off the bench. But I was very confident that no one we acquired would beat Foster out and once again no one has beaten Foster out of the starting spot. So Jeff is starting again.

                In responding to Peck's post I could go down a list of all of Jeff's positives, but I feel like I've done that many, many times - so let me just get to the bottom line on Jeff. And yes I'm going to play a little dumb here. For whatever reason - the Pacers team plays better when Jeff is on the court. I believe there are some very concrete reasons for that - but I've stated them all in the past, so I'm going to end it right there

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: An open honest discussion about...

                  Originally posted by Eindar View Post
                  As for Foster missing layups, I think he's got some sort of mental block about it. This is also why he can nail a 15-foot jumper in preseason games, and can't make an uncontested layup in an actual game. I seriously think the only thing that will help him improve in this area is therapy.
                  He's got the layup yips. Maybe Rick can loan him his long putter......
                  PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: An open honest discussion about...

                    Originally posted by Peck View Post
                    Jeff Foster.

                    Look in years past I've been extremely critical of Jeff. Well, somewhere over the past two seasons I've come to peace with the idea that Jeff was not really ever my problem. I have in my mind what a person who plays defense in the pivot should be & well frankly Jeff isn't it. It's not that he plays poorly, that is far from the truth. In fact Jeff is a good defender. Now I will never be accused of being like U.B. in my support of his defensive abilities, but I do have a basic appreciation of him game.

                    He has a great attitude, appears to be an outstanding team mate & is willing to do things that maybe others aren't so willing to do.

                    He is a good rebounder to boot.

                    Now having said that & I have intentionally waited till after he has had a good game to ask/discuss the following.

                    Can the Pacers really afford to have a player on the floor who is so void of offense for the length of time he is out there?

                    Yes, somebody has to do the dirty work & no not everybody can have 8-10 plays run for them a game. But his inability now to hit basic layups not only causes my neveres to stand on end but at what point in time does it hurt the team?

                    Now before anybody goes there let me address this first. How can a person who was a fan of Dale Davis ever dare to criticize a player for lack of offense.

                    Simple, Jeff Foster makes Dale Davis seem like George Gervin.

                    Dale, as inept at offense that he was, still could be counted on to hit layups for the most part & even on rare occasions could step all the way back about 3 feet & hit a shot.

                    It seems to me Jeff right now cannot hit, well frankly anything other than a dunk & he is even starting to scare me with this.

                    Why does this matter? Well for one because teams don't have to guard him they can rotate players around to help guard other players.

                    Another reason? This may very well be part of the reason we are seeing Jamaal Iverson on our team. Rick or maybe Jamaal may feel the need to increase scoring from other positions to compensate for the pure utter lack of offense that comes from our center spot.

                    I guess what I'm saying is, what can be done to improve this? For reasons that have been well documented here the team is probably going to start him until something makes them not so we are stuck with this.

                    For those of you basketball guru's (I'm looking your way thunderbird) is there some fundamental flaw you see that causes Jeff to be so poor on offense. I'm telling you Granville Waiters was an offensive machine compared to what Jeff is right now.

                    I've read in the past from Scott H. that he believes that Jeff was flawed by the team because of their over emphasis that they placed on him rebounding, defending & helping to open up space for the shooters.

                    I've read others who seem to think it's just purely confidence that causes Jeff to do what he does.

                    I'm saying I have no idea, but to quote the immortal general from "War Games" I'd p!ss on a spark plug right now if I thought it would help.

                    What can be done, what is being done & what should be done to get his offense to the point of at least just being bad.

                    Now here is where I am going to probably lose several of you but please understand I do NOT mean this as an insult to Jeff, it's just an honest opinion.

                    There are a very few special players that are so good at one thing or another that they can be a weak offensive player & still get along. Ben Wallace comes to mind.

                    Jeff, while good at rebounding & defense, is in no way a star at either nor is he so good at those that he can afford to be weak on the offensive end.

                    That is just my opinion on the matter.

                    Now what is yours?
                    OK, you asked for my oinion, so back up. I don't understand why fans, particuarly intelligent fans like yourself, could even write a post like this. Man wake up, take Jeff away from this current Pacer team and you would have a disaster on your hands. Does Jeff miss layups, yes, but it is being magnified by the fact that he only shoots four or five times a game. Most of his so called bunnies are not uncontested shots as you would have everyone to believe. In last night's game, Jack missed two bunnies on one possession and then stayed back to protest the lack of a foul call, leaving his team to go four on five, these are the things that we should be posting about not some thread that bashes Foster even though you say you are not. Don't hide behind your words, if you want Foster traded, say so, no problem with that, but to start a thread with false praise for him and then proceed to trash him bothers me a great deal. I think it is crazy to lay Tins trying to be Iverson at Jeff's doorstep.


                    I know that you started this thread to get more posters to post and that is fine, but I do believe that your are off base in your assessment of Jeff's importance to this team. I don't think that Pacer fans will realize the full impact of Jeff on this team, untill he is gone and that is sad.

                    Just like you have said, it's just my opinion, and I am not trying to insult anyone.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: An open honest discussion about...

                      Originally posted by ALF68 View Post
                      OK, you asked for my oinion, so back up. I don't understand why fans, particuarly intelligent fans like yourself, could even write a post like this. Man wake up, take Jeff away from this current Pacer team and you would have a disaster on your hands. Does Jeff miss layups, yes, but it is being magnified by the fact that he only shoots four or five times a game. Most of his so called bunnies are not uncontested shots as you would have everyone to believe. In last night's game, Jack missed two bunnies on one possession and then stayed back to protest the lack of a foul call, leaving his team to go four on five, these are the things that we should be posting about not some thread that bashes Foster even though you say you are not. Don't hide behind your words, if you want Foster traded, say so, no problem with that, but to start a thread with false praise for him and then proceed to trash him bothers me a great deal. I think it is crazy to lay Tins trying to be Iverson at Jeff's doorstep.
                      I need you to explain something for me. What made you decide that Peck was giving "false praise"? What also made you decide he wants us to trade Jeff? Why is it that you (apparently) think you can't both acknowledge the strengths of a player while discussing a weakness? I'm not trying to be a smartass here I am just not sure where you are coming from.


                      I know that you started this thread to get more posters to post and that is fine, but I do believe that your are off base in your assessment of Jeff's importance to this team. I don't think that Pacer fans will realize the full impact of Jeff on this team, untill he is gone and that is sad.

                      Just like you have said, it's just my opinion, and I am not trying to insult anyone.
                      I agree with you that we won't truly see how valuable Jeff is/was until he is gone. I think what he does bring is important and valuable.

                      I also see him miss shots that I don't think most big men miss, and like others that does concern me and I wish there was a way he could fix that.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: An open honest discussion about...

                        Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                        I need you to explain something for me. What made you decide that Peck was giving "false praise"? What also made you decide he wants us to trade Jeff? Why is it that you (apparently) think you can't both acknowledge the strengths of a player while discussing a weakness? I'm not trying to be a smartass here I am just not sure where you are coming from.




                        I agree with you that we won't truly see how valuable Jeff is/was until he is gone. I think what he does bring is important and valuable.

                        I also see him miss shots that I don't think most big men miss, and like others that does concern me and I wish there was a way he could fix that.


                        Call me crazy if you want, but I don't see how anyone can read his post and not conclude that he thinks that Jeff should be traded or at least be playing less minutes. As for his praise of Jeff, only he knows if it was genuine or false. I think that he has decided that Jeff is more of a detriment to the team and that his lack of offense outweighs his other contributions. Just Wrong in my honest opinion.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: An open honest discussion about...

                          "Can the Pacers really afford to have a player on the floor who is so void of offense for the length of time he is out there?"

                          Yes, while I don't consider Jeff completely void of offense, I think a team with 4 other offensive minded players on the court can not only afford an offensive limited player, but needs a player on the court that fills the role Jeff does for this team.

                          "There are a very few special players that are so good at one thing or another that they can be a weak offensive player & still get along. Ben Wallace comes to mind.

                          Jeff, while good at rebounding & defense, is in no way a star at either nor is he so good at those that he can afford to be weak on the offensive end."

                          I can't think of a player since Rodman that comes closer to being a great rebounder then Jeff, good is a bit of an understatement.


                          "Simple, Jeff Foster makes Dale Davis seem like George Gervin."

                          I haven't checked for a while, but the last time I did their #'s wouldn't agree with this overall, but Dale did have the edge on fg%. Dale took a lot few bunnies, and took it to the rim with more authority.
                          I think that's a big issue here. Dale served the same role as Jeff, and became our standard for this role, but they are different players. Dale was a bull, and Jeff gets his rebounds, and defends with more speed. I think this a bigger value in today's NBA then it would have been with 90's Pacer teams. Jeff could learn a lot from Dale in the way he played his limited offensive role, but I don't know if he has that in him. A coach should just push Jeff to go for the dunk whenever possible. At this stage I don't see Jeff improving his shot much. I would hope the coaching staff, and Jeff have worked on simply lay up drills, and set him up for this in practice games. I coach an elementary team, and those things show results over time. I think it's either a confidence issue, or a nervous energy issue that overcomes him when he gets the ball. I'll bet Rick has thought about this more then any of us. Sorry, I can't think of any ideas that shouldn't have already been tried. I am willing to live with Jeff in our starting lineup.
                          Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

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                          • #14
                            Re: An open honest discussion about...

                            Originally posted by Peck View Post
                            Jeff Foster.

                            I've read in the past from Scott H. that he believes that Jeff was flawed by the team because of their over emphasis that they placed on him rebounding, defending & helping to open up space for the shooters.
                            That's funny you wrote that, cause I got halfway through your post and my fingers started twitching to respond. I watched Jeff play in college. I even saw him play in person. He was a different player. I would have guessed he would have been more of like Christian Laettner with shorter range or Austin Croshere with better rebounding skills. But it became apparent to me that we always had too many shooters and not enough rebounders, so Jeff was designated that role. At one point, we had Jalen, Reggie, Mullin and Smits..all shooters with no aptitude for rebounding. I think that was the beginning of Jeff being pigeonholed. I don't think Jeff ever had a chance to develop his game because he was basically asked to do the lion's share of the rebounding and pic setting, since essentially, no one else could do it well.

                            After the team of shooters, we had the team of young'uns during Isiah's time. We ran plays for everyone to develop their offensive skills except Jeff. I think Jeff further was asked to do the anchor stuff, so the other guys could develop.

                            It always drove me nuts because Dale never could shoot. His role on the team was a continuation of what he did in collge. Jeff COULD shoot, but we retarded his growth for the greater good of the team.

                            I find it one of the great shames of the Pacers.

                            So, Can the Pacers really afford to have a player on the floor who is so void of offense for the length of time he is out there?

                            No.

                            Jeff has gone from filing a void with trying to replicate the efforts Dale, to the team using him as a crutch to fall back upon as everyone else works on their shot. We've seen how defenses routinely leave Jeff open. Hell, he gets a lot of his rebounds because he IS left open and can get a running start on the boards.

                            I'll say something that may sound contradictory. Jeff shouldn't get so many minutes, but other than his shooting, I think he is just about the most complete player on the team. He's great at getting the ball back out aafter boards and keying breaks on defensive boards. He's one of the few who sets a pick properly and he's a better defender than advertised. He's actually got a well, rounded game....except he can't shoot.

                            I think the damage has been done to his basketball self perception and that probably can't change now, but I wouldn't mind him playing with the second unit and getting a few plays called for him. For the sake of the team, he needs to be nurtured towards getting a midrange shot.

                            So how do we fix it?

                            well, my answer would be something Jermaine would NEVER go for. Play him at C, Al at PF (I'm not going to get into the co-existing thing right now), Danny at SF, ect.

                            If Al and JO had it pounded in their heads to be netter rebounders the way Jeff has, I think it would happen, but they're more worried about getting the right spacing to get the ball and their shot, etc.

                            I could ramble on and on, so I'll stop for now, but I'm probably going to blather on more about this a little later on.
                            Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

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                            • #15
                              Re: An open honest discussion about...

                              let me ask a couple of questions about Jeff's poor contributions on offense

                              1) Is pick setting a part of offense.

                              2) Is offensive rebounding a part of offense.

                              3) Is other teams game planning for Jeff's offensive rebounding - is that part of the offense - does that in some direct and indirect way help the Pacers offense.


                              One thing that I always bugs me is when people say stuff like this,
                              Well for one because teams don't have to guard him they can rotate players around to help guard other players
                              That might be true to an extent, teams certainly back off of Jeff when he's outside of 12 feet- but I've never seen a team purposely leave Jeff wide open inside of 12 feet because they know as soon as the Pacers shoot they have to block Jeff out or he'll get the rebound. I've seen when teams don't do it, Jeff gets every rebound, the other coach calls a timeout and an adjustment is made and as least one player is then assigned to block Jeff out. Last year in the Nets series I saw at times two guys blocking Jeff out

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