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Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

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  • #46
    Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

    I agree that Tinsley would thrive in this offense. I just don't care, because he can't stay healthy. I also think JO would thrive in this offense, assuming we keep running it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't trade him for KG.

    Peck, I'm not sure how to elaborate on what I said earlier. Maybe Jay can help. The short answer is that I don't want this team to go 15 deep with players expecting to play every night. I want 9 or 10 guys that can be part of the rotation, a couple decent third-stringers in case of injury, and that's about it. We've bragged for the last couple of years how good our third string was. That doesn't win us championships. I want our money tied up in the players that will actually be on the court.

    So when I say "depth is overrated" I don't mean I don't want 5 good players coming off the bench. I mean I don't want 10. If we have 10 bench players that deserve minutes, then we should trade quantity for quality and get better players that can actually get on the court.
    This space for rent.

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    • #47
      Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

      Originally posted by Jon Theodore
      I think it is too easy to say the problem lies solely with Carlisle or JO, it has to do with both. Perhaps my biggest issue with Jermaine, is one that I don't talk about much. Someone mentioned it, about the stare down he gives people when he dunks. YOUR 6'11 I HOPE TO GOD YOU CAN DUNK ON SOMEBODY.

      Now that I got that out of my system. Carlisle is not a good coach for a team like this. We need someone like Adelman or George Karl, somebody who will accept nothing less than stellar TEAM basketball.

      Also has been pointed out, I am willing to agree we are simply TOO DEEP. I think players like Tins/Jermaine who seem to be rather injury prone...should just sit out games periodically throughout the season...to PRESERVE them.

      If i was getting millions of dollars, I can't imagine having a problem with that. There are not enough minutes to go around, that is why we play better undermanned. We still desperately need to make that 2 for 1 trade people have been talking about for so long.

      Sidenote: POLLARD WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE!

      Trading Saras/Granger....a move that might upset a LOT of people...could land us a VERY good player. But that is a move you make if you think we are ready to CONTEND right now and are possibly willing to sacrifice the future. A lot of people don't feel we are contenders now and I am one of those people. Saras and Granger are my favorite Pacers, I do not advocate this move...just throwing it out there. Because I truly feel this team still needs an adjustment.

      Obviously, if i'm the coach I am moving Jermaine....but did I even need to state that?

      I think what we really should look at doing is possibly moving JO/Freddy for an elite guard. Somebody who you can count on to fill it up. I'm sure we could get a draft pick out of this deal too.

      But in conclusion, Peck that was the best post i've read on these forums, not much I can add.
      Thats cool. Really, thats a fine comment you just made there. Really, it is.












      Now get out.
      "Remember the pain of my fist. That is my power!"

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      • #48
        Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

        Regarding Tinsley:

        As much as I dislike Tinsley, I have to admit that I think he has the ability to excel in this type of up tempo offense.

        However, I've noticed one thing about Tinsley that is troubling and something that has changed in him over the past couple of years. He hardly ever passes on the fastbreak anymore. I wish I had a dollar for every 3-on-1 break where he has forced a layup when he could've easily taken the assist for an easier shot by his teammate.

        He does usually draw a foul in those situations but since he's not a good free throw shooter it would make more sense to just make the easy pass and get the points on the board. If he returns, that has to stop because the team right now is excelling because they are pushing the ball up the floor, looking, and finding the open teammate for easy buckets.

        Regarding JO:

        I agree with whoever brought up the 2003 playoffs series against the Celtics. JO was a beast on the boards and he pulled down 20+ rebounds in 4 out of the 6 games they played. He could lead the league in rebounding if Rick pressed him to do so.

        I believe that last year, with Ron out of the lineup, Rick made the mistake of leaning on JO to much when he returned. It's understandable because Reggie and Foster were still slowly returning from injury and didn't have their timing together and Jack was still out on suspension. To his credit, JO played at an all-time high until his shoulder was seperated by a cheap shot in Portland.

        During the playoffs, after JO returned, Rick went back to utilizing him the same way when he didn't have to. I put some of the fault on Reggie too because he returned to defering to JO at first, making the offense very predictable. They couldn't get out of the mind-set that JO should get 20-24 shots a game.

        When Artest went out again this year, they started to revert back to the old mind-set. Now that they have Peja and Fred, Granger, and Harrison have made their strides and proven themselves, I think the JO will return and just try to fit in. It's up to Rick to make sure they don't revert back to a stand-around-watch-JO-work style of offense.

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        • #49
          Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

          IMO, I think JO will not only willingly but enthusiastically fit into this type of offense.

          Part of that is probably wishful thinking. But why not? JO has always said the right things, and I think he means to do them as well. He's already gotten his "max" deal, no need to pad his stats. He's popular enough that he will get lots of all-star votes. He's good enough that if he retires here #7 has a good chance to go into the rafters.

          What's to play for, but a ring?

          And in this type of offense, JO might not get more shots, but they will be easier ones. Having a real center in there will certainly cut down the wear-and-tear on the defensive end. But this offense will save a whole bunch of wear-and-tear on the offensive end. Grinding it out in the post every other play wears a guy down. He appreciate that big-time, I think.

          If this type of basketball is "winning basketball", and I think it is, I can't find a reason for JO not to fit in just fine. I do worry about Rick falling back to the dump-it-to-JO style, though.
          You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
          All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

          - Jimmy Buffett

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          • #50
            Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

            Originally posted by Doug
            IMO, I think JO will not only willingly but enthusiastically fit into this type of offense.

            Part of that is probably wishful thinking. But why not? JO has always said the right things, and I think he means to do them as well. He's already gotten his "max" deal, no need to pad his stats. He's popular enough that he will get lots of all-star votes. He's good enough that if he retires here #7 has a good chance to go into the rafters.

            What's to play for, but a ring?

            And in this type of offense, JO might not get more shots, but they will be easier ones. Having a real center in there will certainly cut down the wear-and-tear on the defensive end. But this offense will save a whole bunch of wear-and-tear on the offensive end. Grinding it out in the post every other play wears a guy down. He appreciate that big-time, I think.

            If this type of basketball is "winning basketball", and I think it is, I can't find a reason for JO not to fit in just fine. I do worry about Rick falling back to the dump-it-to-JO style, though.

            If we let JO pose after rebounds and blockouts do you think he'd work on them in a fundamental sense?

            On a serious note- I don't have any doubt we'll be going back to the 'dump it down to JO offense' as soon as he returns.

            We're going to pretend he's Shaq, and he's going to pretend he's Shaq, and we'll bog things down again. There's a lot of talk whether it's Carlisle or JO... well... maybe it is both!? Maybe Carlisle ultimately does want to go to JO and hopes he'll get better, as will the team, playing that style. I can believe Carlisle wants to go to JO like he does (I don't like it but I could believe it) BUT I find it hard to believe JO is living up to expectations when they play that way. So we (TPTB) keep pretending... And we keep doing it because no one wants to tell the emperor he has no clothes.

            -Bball
            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

            ------

            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

            -John Wooden

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            • #51
              Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

              Originally posted by Bball
              If we let JO pose after rebounds and blockouts do you think he'd work on them in a fundamental sense?

              On a serious note- I don't have any doubt we'll be going back to the 'dump it down to JO offense' as soon as he returns.

              We're going to pretend he's Shaq, and he's going to pretend he's Shaq, and we'll bog things down again. There's a lot of talk whether it's Carlisle or JO... well... maybe it is both!? Maybe Carlisle ultimately does want to go to JO and hopes he'll get better, as will the team, playing that style. I can believe Carlisle wants to go to JO like he does (I don't like it but I could believe it) BUT I find it hard to believe JO is living up to expectations when they play that way. So we (TPTB) keep pretending... And we keep doing it because no one wants to tell the emperor he has no clothes.

              -Bball
              Bball, please! I hope you're wrong. I don't know how much more I could tolerate if they go back to that slogging, grinding, plodding attack. Tinsley and JO are both very capable of playing in the current system I think. They at least have to give it a try.
              I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

              -Emiliano Zapata

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              • #52
                Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                Is it the dump down to the low post that evertone hates or is it the dump down to J.O that everyone hates.

                In other words if the Pacers had Shaq circa 2000, would you be OK with dumping it down to Shaq.

                is it the system or is it the player you don't like

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                  Dumping down to Shaq usually resulted in a dunk during that time, and he led the league in FG% MANY times. With JO, it usually leads to a low % baseline fadeaway jumper. So yes, it's the player. JO just doesn't seem to fit that style of play. With one exception. JO played well during that stretch of 04-05 when he returned from suspension. He was automatic there for about 30 games. If that was the case, and coming into this season I honestly thought it would be, I'd love to see it. Now, JO should run the court and be more of an Amare type player. He's capable of it, and it's what this team is built for right now. This would still allow JO to score plenty of points in transition. It also wouldn't hurt if he'd teach himself to be even a mediocre passer. Of course, that never hurts any player.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                    Originally posted by Unclebuck
                    Is it the dump down to the low post that evertone hates or is it the dump down to J.O that everyone hates.

                    In other words if the Pacers had Shaq circa 2000, would you be OK with dumping it down to Shaq.

                    is it the system or is it the player you don't like
                    In the context of which you speak I'll answer.

                    The player.

                    Shaq did not fade away for 15' floaters after holding the ball for 10 seconds.

                    Shaq, in 00, had also learned how to make quick decisions on passing.

                    Shaq could be counted on for games in the high 20's every night on less than 20 shots a game.

                    Shaq was the most dominate physical specimine to ever play the game (maybe Wilt in his later years was as strong but who knows).

                    So player for player I'll say it's the player.

                    Now if you wanna say system vs. player that is a differant story.


                    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                    • #55
                      Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                      Able,

                      I can understand your defense of JO. I think you bring up some pretty good arguments that would place the onus on Rick for the style of play we use. As a matter of fact I tend to agree.

                      What I don't understand is your defense of Tinsley. Maybe his injuries have nothing to do with conditioning. Perhaps he is the most ardent player on our team at taking care of himself. I don't think any of us really know the answer to that question.

                      But what I do know is this... he is injured a lot. I was listening to the Radio show Pacers overtime with Kevin Lee and he mentinoed that Tinsley just may not have an NBA body that can take the abuse. But even if he is the most unlucky son of a gun in the world, it still doesn't change the fact that he can't play an awful lot of the time.

                      And even when he does play, he does have a tendency to revert into 1 on 1 play and risky moves. He has the best handle on the team and that is without question. But if he can't consistently show up for games, in spite of the reasoning, it just hurts this team. Maybe this is the last flare up, but if history is a good indicator, the odds are not in his favor.
                      “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
                      motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
                      Reggie Miller

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                      • #56
                        Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                        Originally posted by Peck
                        In the context of which you speak I'll answer.

                        The player.

                        Shaq did not fade away for 15' floaters after holding the ball for 10 seconds.

                        Shaq, in 00, had also learned how to make quick decisions on passing.

                        Shaq could be counted on for games in the high 20's every night on less than 20 shots a game.

                        Shaq was the most dominate physical specimine to ever play the game (maybe Wilt in his later years was as strong but who knows).

                        So player for player I'll say it's the player.

                        Now if you wanna say system vs. player that is a differant story.
                        Yessss! and it counts!
                        J.O'Neal isn't S.O'Neal --whole different offensive game. Isn't a low post game a lot more effective if the player attacks the basket at least HALF of the time? We can get Tisdale out of retirement if we want his kind of post-up shots
                        And I'm STILL (I'll admit I'm slow) adjusting to the Pacers new spot in the food chain. If I can't follow a championship run by my team this year, at least let their style of play be entertaining basketball!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                          I'll just say this if it hasn't been said before... Wait and see.
                          I am not a patient man but i am interested to see how Peja
                          and JO play together. We have proven that Tinsley isn't required
                          for this team to win games. I am fan for him being traded and one
                          last comment. MAggette twisted his ankle on a shot and Tinsley got stepped on.

                          The ICU is no place for an effective point guard.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                            JO will still post up in this offense if it is continued upon his return and he'll be an important threat there. IMO it's just that it won't go down into him to initiate every single possession he's on the floor. Plus, he will have to make quicker decisions if he's doubled when they do post him. A good example of recognizing the double and making a good pass happend two or three times last night when the worked Jack and Peja on the right side. Peja had a smaller defender and as soon as Jack's guy sagged to far down, Peja immediately kicked it back for a nice 3 point look. Jack converted at least two or three on that same set up. Kudos to Peja! Except for the one time he tried to dump it back out really early and the ball slipped out of his hands. OOPS!
                            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                            -Emiliano Zapata

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                            • #59
                              Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                              In order for JO to be effective in this system he will have to forego posturing and glaring, and embrace running, passing, jumping, and rebounding. There will be scant time for the former and a needed emphasis on the latter.
                              Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Odd thoughts about beating the Blazers.....

                                The current offense seems to be the "Best fit" for the current makeup and lineup of the team.

                                Once everyone is back.......what would be the "Best fit" offense for that lineup?

                                IMHO....it pretty much comes down to:

                                Do we change the offense to fit the players?

                                or

                                Do we change the players to fit the offense?


                                and based off of Carlisle's coaching history....even dating back to his Pistons' days......which does he tend to do?
                                Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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