An answer for Fortaz......

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  • foretaz

    Re: An answer for Fortaz......

    Originally posted by sixthman
    Great point.

    Ron's hard work and understanding of how to play the game are also signs of intelliegence, something many of these evaluators of Artest's character also imply he lacks.

    I have to laugh though at an irony:

    Peck hates Artest, he says, because many on this board excuse Ron for his sins; I defend Artest, partly, because many on this board make judgements about Ron that I do not think are fair or accurate.

    I suspect the truth about Ron is somewhere in the middle. Ron is not an evil bully, nor is he a saint.

    I can only say I have met the man twice now outside of a basketball setting or public appearance and both times were positive experiences. Ron is not in the slightest intimidating. And I can be intimated by celebrities pretty easily. Unassuming, but friendly enough, would be an accurate description.

    I'm an old guy, so maybe I get a pass from Ron. But I don't think that is the case. For those of you old enough to know Hallie Bryant, IU great from Indianapolis and Harlem Globetrotter legend and front man, chatting with Ron Artest reminded me of when I first met a young Hallie Bryant. There is that same charisma. A high likability quotient. Hallie is more verbal, but Ron has that same ease of accessibility and genuinness that have served Hallie so well.

    Just wanted to make that observation in hopes of making the point that there really is a middle ground here about Ron Artest that some might miss.
    this is a very, very telling post...

    these players, all of them, are treated much more like objects than they are humans...its almost like theyre not real human beings ... they have no real personal connection to us....theyre members of our team...and we want our team to win...cause winning provides us with pleasure...and losing provides us with pain.....

    sometimes it appears theyre nothing more than very expensive whores-strictly here for our pleasure and enjoyment...and by the reactions of many-an overpriced whore that provided them with little or no satisfaction whatsoever....

    if u have that opportunity as u did....its amazing how ur perspective can change...once these objects are realized as actual real human beings...it changes things....it makes it real life drama instead of surreal entertainment....and these players are just living life and dealing with all its challenges just like we are....theyre not immune to problems just because they play basketball for a living or make more money than most....

    in many cases they have a whole set of different problems...ones that partially exist because there might have been those along the way that tried to exploit them , once again treating them as an object and a means to an end instead of a real human being....

    i often wonder, when discussing ron, if he were a family member how people would respond....but until u actually have that physical connection its very difficult to fully appreciate things for what they really are....

    as long as we keep treating them like high priced hookers whose only purpose is our enjoyment, we will probably always feel like we never get our moneys worth....only when we realize theyre human beings just like us, with problems similar to us, will we ever truly be able to appreciate all the enjoyment that they can provide...

    Comment

    • Jay@Section12
      Administrator/ The Real Jay
      • Jan 2004
      • 17727

      Re: An answer for Fortaz......

      Sure, but the point is that none of those are contenders. Ron can be the S.A.R./ Clark Kellogg of those teams - their best player but unable to lead them anywhere.
      Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
      Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
      Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
      Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
      And life itself, rushing over me
      Life itself, the wind in black elms,
      Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

      Comment

      • Bball
        Jimmy did what Jimmy did
        • Jan 2004
        • 26903

        Re: An answer for Fortaz......

        Originally posted by foretaz
        i guess i dont understand this concept of a fan wanting to be right...i understand fans wanting to win championships...wanting to win games...but wanting to be right about a player they feel is a distraction on creates disruptions on the team they hold in such high esteem? i dont get that...i think i would want to be wrong on that..not right...

        I think you just hit the nail on the head without realizing it... I don't think any one of the people who are preaching against, or worrying about, Ron Artest WANT to be right. They (and I include myself in that group) want to be wrong and sincerely hope he can get his act together. He is a terrific basketball player when he applies himself and doesn't let his head unravel. He's (IMHO) the Pacers best player and the Pacer that makes the players around him better. OTOH, he's also been the PMLTS (Pacer most likely to snap). We can't just overlook some of the childish antics we've been privy to (claiming illness or injury when he doesn't want to go to school... errrr I mean play basketball because he's mad at the teacher...errrrr coach and classmates...errrrr teammates (see my point?). It will take a lot of work on his part to convince some of us he has gotten past all that.

        But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Pacer fan who doesn't hope he has grown past that and hopes their predictions of future eruptions (based on past behavior) aren't wrong.

        Nobody WANTS to be right when they are predicting gloom and doom for the Pacers (no Pacer fan anyway). IE: I hope I am wrong about Bender (BUST!) but he keeps proving me right year after year.


        -Bball
        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

        ------

        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

        -John Wooden

        Comment

        • Sollozzo
          Member
          • Jan 2004
          • 27435

          Re: An answer for Fortaz......

          Originally posted by Unclebuck
          Pistons are such a strange team (I mean that in a good way) it is too difficult to figure out a pecking order with them.

          Suns: I think Ron is better than Marion, no doubt in my mmind about that. He'd be #3 there.

          Heat: Ron would be #3 there for now

          Rockets: I think Ron is a better tplayer than Yao, so I'd say he'd be number 2 there.

          But how many teams would Ron be the most important player. lets not take into account the distractions just for fun. Wow this list is longer than I thought. This is about every team in the league

          Hawks
          Bobcats
          Grizzles
          Blazers
          Jazz
          Nuggets
          Mavs - yes more important than Dirk
          Clippers
          Warriors
          Kings
          Bucks
          Bulls
          Celtics
          Raptors
          Knicks
          Wizards
          Hornets
          Magic
          Pacers - what?

          I agree about Detroit. The Pistons are certainly the strangest team to ever win an NBA championship. I mean that in a good way as well.

          I agree that Ron is a better player than Yao as well. But Yao would be more important regardless. The Rockets are going to live and die by Yao.

          I disagree about the Mavs. I think Dirk is more important.

          I agree about the Pacers. Yes, that's right, I said it. I prefer that he be traded, but I know that wont happen. So our success next year mostly hingest on how he comes back, plays, and if he controls himself. That, and a combination of JO maturing.

          Like I mentioned in a previous post, I hope I'm eating crow at this time next year. That means that Ron would have kept it together for an entire season, and the Pacers 05-06 season would have been a huge success.

          Maybe you and I think more alike than I thought. Well, we are both huge Seinfeld fans.

          Comment

          • foretaz

            Re: An answer for Fortaz......

            Originally posted by Bball
            I think you just hit the nail on the head without realizing it... I don't think any one of the people who are preaching against, or worrying about, Ron Artest WANT to be right. They (and I include myself in that group) want to be wrong and sincerely hope he can get his act together. He is a terrific basketball player when he applies himself and doesn't let his head unravel. He's (IMHO) the Pacers best player and the Pacer that makes the players around him better. OTOH, he's also been the PMLTS (Pacer most likely to snap). We can't just overlook some of the childish antics we've been privy to (claiming illness or injury when he doesn't want to go to school... errrr I mean play basketball because he's mad at the teacher...errrrr coach and classmates...errrrr teammates (see my point?). It will take a lot of work on his part to convince some of us he has gotten past all that.

            But I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Pacer fan who doesn't hope he has grown past that and hopes their predictions of future eruptions (based on past behavior) aren't wrong.

            Nobody WANTS to be right when they are predicting gloom and doom for the Pacers (no Pacer fan anyway). IE: I hope I am wrong about Bender (BUST!) but he keeps proving me right year after year.


            -Bball

            well....i might volunteer this....for people who want to be wrong about this situation they sure have a funny way of showing it....

            it appears more to me that they want to have it both ways....they wanna win....but dont want to give 'proper' support...so that when we lose it doesnt hurt as bad because theyre able to say 'i told u so'.....

            its a bit of a sellout to me...but thats just my opinion....

            who cant be supportive of things when they are done the way we see fit...or agree with....

            true support and faith revolves around those issues that we dont agree with or find difficult to understand....u dont have to like these things, but supporting them seems to be almost a responsibility as a true fan....

            i dont look at it much different than a coaching strategy, for instance....i may not agree with certain philosophies...i might not like a certain assistant...but im a pacer fan....and to maintain any sort of sanity, its a necessity to trust and believe that every member of the organization from the owners right down to the ballboys want the same things....primarily based on winning a championship...and furthermore i gotta believe that everyone is doing everything they can do make that happen....

            cause if i dont do that....what am i really doing??? am i saying ill only support them if they do things my way?....or i will support them but begrudginly so? hell whats the point then??? seems im only a step away from only supporting them when they win....i just dont like that road and where it goes....

            if u support the team u support it....u might not like or agree with everything but u still support it....thats why its called being a fan...its rather fanatical....

            to pick and choose players or coaches or philosophies just doesnt seem hardly fair....im not saying anyone or anything is above criticism...i think its very possible to criticize while being supportive....but not only is some of what goes on not constructive criticism, it basically is nothing more than pure disdain and hate....and to me thats difficult to fathom when ur talking about ur team of choice...

            Comment

            • Since86
              Member
              • Dec 2004
              • 27818

              Re: An answer for Fortaz......

              Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
              I disagree about the Mavs. I think Dirk is more important.

              Anyone that plays defense that good, or well?, and can actually put the ball in the cup, would most definately be the most important factor on that team. Might not be the leading scorer, which has become the definition of MVP, but that team is DYING not having a stopper on the outside.
              Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

              Comment

              • Sollozzo
                Member
                • Jan 2004
                • 27435

                Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                Originally posted by Since86
                Anyone that plays defense that good, or well?, and can actually put the ball in the cup, would most definately be the most important factor on that team. Might not be the leading scorer, which has become the definition of MVP, but that team is DYING not having a stopper on the outside.

                Dirk has proven he can be the leader of a franchise.

                Has Ron?

                Comment

                • Suaveness
                  Member
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 13482

                  Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                  Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
                  Dirk has proven he can be the leader of a franchise.

                  Has Ron?
                  I thought JO was the leader of the franchise
                  Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

                  Comment

                  • SoupIsGood
                    flexible and robust
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 17463

                    Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                    Originally posted by foretaz



                    it appears more to me that they want to have it both ways....they wanna win....but dont want to give 'proper' support...so that when we lose it doesnt hurt as bad because theyre able to say 'i told u so'.....

                    ..
                    No. We want to win, therefore, we want to get rid of the player who simply doesn't fit within the team concept.

                    Talent alone could get us deep in the playoffs, but a team has to really mesh together to win it all.

                    Unless we had Shaq, or something crazy like that.

                    As for the Blind Faith argument, I think you are confusing Basketball with Religon.
                    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

                    Comment

                    • foretaz

                      Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                      Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
                      Dirk has proven he can be the leader of a franchise.

                      Has Ron?
                      im sorry....but i have to ask....how has dirk proven he can be the leader of a franchise?????

                      and im not trying to be smart....but if he has proven he can be the leader, where has he lead it?

                      Comment

                      • Since86
                        Member
                        • Dec 2004
                        • 27818

                        Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                        Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
                        Dirk has proven he can be the leader of a franchise.

                        Has Ron?

                        That wasn't the statement though. The leader isn't the most important player. Ron would most definately be the most important player on the Mavs team.

                        BTW, where as Dirk led the Mavs too?
                        Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                        Comment

                        • Sollozzo
                          Member
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 27435

                          Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                          Originally posted by Since86
                          That wasn't the statement though. The leader isn't the most important player. Ron would most definately be the most important player on the Mavs team.

                          BTW, where as Dirk led the Mavs too?

                          The conference finals, which is as far as this current Pacers core has gone.

                          Comment

                          • Since86
                            Member
                            • Dec 2004
                            • 27818

                            Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                            Originally posted by PacerFanAdam
                            The conference finals, which is as far as this current Pacers core has gone.

                            I don't think I've ever saw a resume with "0-? in conference final series." With that said, I believe the same thing about this current Pacers team. They are contenders, that have never gotten over the hump.
                            Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                            Comment

                            • foretaz

                              Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                              Originally posted by SoupIsGood
                              No. We want to win, therefore, we want to get rid of the player who simply doesn't fit within the team concept.
                              who says he doesnt fit?? the coaching staff says he does...the management says he does...they would seem to be the two most knowledgeable and qualified to do so...let alone the most qualified to do something about it if they felt differently? if its the fans eyes.....well...first of all not all fans want that...in fact, not that it matters, but its the minority that want that...however thats irrelevant....please explain to me, however, how a fan is more qualified to make this decision than the coaching staff and the management?? this actually makes a fine argument for the theory that coaches should coach, management should manage, and fans should cheer and shut the hell up about everything else....

                              Talent alone could get us deep in the playoffs, but a team has to really mesh together to win it all.

                              Unless we had Shaq, or something crazy like that.

                              As for the Blind Faith argument, I think you are confusing Basketball with Religon.

                              show me where i said anything about blind??? please dont put words in my mouth....if ur gonna quote me, please dont delete my words and then choose others that u would rather use....

                              its hardly blind to have faith that qualified individuals do their job....im assuming if ur old enuff that someone has faith that u will do ur job...or ur teacher has faith u will do ur homework....

                              in both instances being able to see and religion have nothing to do with it....

                              Comment

                              • SoupIsGood
                                flexible and robust
                                • Jun 2004
                                • 17463

                                Re: An answer for Fortaz......

                                Dirk is not a leader, he is an agitator, if the playoffs this season are any indication. It seemed everytime I saw the neurotic mess he was lashing out at one of his team mates.
                                You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

                                Comment

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