Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

[rabid]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

Disagree 100%.

Unclebuck is right, look around the league. The stability of this franchise is something we should appreciate. Bird is not a miracle worker, and he's made mistakes, but looking at the overall body of work I'm impressed. People want instant results and can't appreciate the long game.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been a fan of this team for 30 years, so I know all about the "long game."

I've been supportive of Bird this whole time, even when I haven't always agreed with each of his moves. But starting with the 2015 offseason I had serious concerns, and post-Vogel-firing (and hiring Nate as the "new voice" without even interviewing any other coaches) my concerns have only deepened.

I'm now of the opinion that it's time to move on from Bird. No, the team isn't in "terrible" shape, and no, not all of his moves have been bad (we drafted Turner after all), but that doesn't mean we couldn't do better under different leadership. (FWIW I don't expect Bird to get fired, but I do hope he realizes he should consider retiring soon). I just don't see moves that are improving the team over time.

I'm trying to imagine this team contending in 2-3 years under Bird and I just don't see it with the current trajectory.

EDIT: Bird tried to make PG a power forward. I rest my case.

[Infinite MAN_force]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

PG kind of disagrees with all of this if you listen to his comments.

I'm not saying we are there, I'm acknowledging it isn't easy to get "there". Given the circumstances, Bird has done much better at his job than at least 3/4 of the league.

People expect miracles, nobody out there is going to deliver you a miracle, be realistic. It ain't easy to build a contender in small market Indiana. This organization has done a very good job for 25 years and has been close many times, you can't ask for much more than that.

The grass isn't always greener folks.

[Eleazar]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

Granger was completely toast as a player at that point. Turner was 5 years younger and producing. From a basketball standpoint, it was a no brainier given that a weak bench was why we lost the 2013 ECF's. From an emotional standpoint, it's a different argument I suppose.

That team had issues that went far beyond keeping Granger around, I.e. Hibbert basically completely collapsed as a player.

Yet from a basketball stand point Granger played better for the Pacers that season than Turner did. Anyone who was willing to look beyond the PPG number had serious doubts about the trade from the very beginning.


Anyways back on topic, like the Colts I am ready to see new blood in the front office to take this team in a new direction.

[Infinite MAN_force]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

You can disagree but you're wrong. The discussion about whether or not Bird needs to go has been going on for a while now. So either you don't know those conversations have been happening or you're ignoring them in order to paint those who you disagree with as reactionary. You can disagree without purposefully distorting the other side and the longevity of the position.

What's reactionary is the fact that this discussion is about the trade deadline. Be real.

No Deal > Bad Deal

[Trader Joe]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

CLOSED POLL??? NOW WE RIOT

[Trader Joe]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

It was cowardly and unprofessional for the front office to not make any statement yesterday after the sort of turmoil they stirred up for the team and the fan base. To me, that is the final straw, regardless of how you think the Pacers should have handled trading PG (I'm team keep PG, but understand the appeal of the Boston package), for Bird to not speak AT ALL yesterday, is ridiculous and he is a coward.

[vnzla81]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

I'm not saying we are there, I'm acknowledging it isn't easy to get "there". Given the circumstances, Bird has done much better at his job than at least 3/4 of the league.

People expect miracles, nobody out there is going to deliver you a miracle, be realistic. It ain't easy to build a contender in small market Indiana. This organization has done a very good job for 25 years and has been close many times, you can't ask for much more than that.

The grass isn't always greener folks.

I think you are missing the point, the point here is that if the Pacers don't build a contender soon and instead keep dragging their feet PG will leave.


I mean PG has been nice to let the Pacers know that if they don't build a contender he is gone, in other words PG doesn't give a f*** how decent the Pacers have been in past years.

[vnzla81]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

It was cowardly and unprofessional for the front office to not make any statement yesterday after the sort of turmoil they stirred up for the team and the fan base. To me, that is the final straw, regardless of how you think the Pacers should have handled trading PG (I'm team keep PG, but understand the appeal of the Boston package), for Bird to not speak AT ALL yesterday, is ridiculous and he is a coward.

He became Phil Jackson.

[dgranger17]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been a fan of this team for 30 years, so I know all about the "long game."

I've been supportive of Bird this whole time, even when I haven't always agreed with each of his moves. But starting with the 2015 offseason I had serious concerns, and post-Vogel-firing (and hiring Nate as the "new voice" without even interviewing any other coaches) my concerns have only deepened.

I'm now of the opinion that it's time to move on from Bird. No, the team isn't in "terrible" shape, and no, not all of his moves have been bad (we drafted Turner after all), but that doesn't mean we couldn't do better under different leadership. (FWIW I don't expect Bird to get fired, but I do hope he realizes he should consider retiring soon). I just don't see moves that are improving the team over time.

I'm trying to imagine this team contending in 2-3 years under Bird and I just don't see it with the current trajectory.

The problem lies within your last paragraph. Lower the expectations. Don't base our success on a Finals appearance. We've had one in our NBA history. And that's because we had to wait for Jordan to leave.

Simon plays for an ECF appearance. Wanting to be a contender isn't fair to Larry, the players, or the fans. We just need to compete for a shot at 2nd in the East.

PG's leg (back when PG was good), Lance's agent, and the funerals of West and Hibbert threw a wrench in there for a minute. We're still trying to recover. We're a small market so we have to be patient. This is why Larry is the man for the job until he says he doesn't want the job anymore. He knows how to work within a budget. And he knows do the complete opposite of what anyone on PD wants.

This season isn't working out the way we hoped. But even before the season, we were still one offseason away from the ECF. We have 4 starters + Al and some average talent. One more offseason gives us that 5th starter + Al and average talent. That 5th starter will make all the difference.

If Larry can get 2 starters and a pick for PG in June (or July), we're right where we want to be. Other than PD acting like PG when PG gets traded... PG acts like a middle school girl, by the way.

This is only an argument if our payroll is the same as the Top 10 teams in the league. As long as we're fighting an uphill battle, most of you need to take a step back and reevaluate what's really going on.

I'll end with an example from our last ECF team. Give Larry one more $10M player (remember when $10M was a lot?) and the entire situation changes. We might get by MIA one time. We might be able to slightly recover from PG's leg or Lance's agent.

The guy has clearly made some mistakes (here's looking at you Monta), but overall he's perfect for the Pacers. He wants what Simon cares about... the playoffs. I'm actually surprised he hasn't quit yet. It has to be frustrating to be so close with limited resources all the time and not be able to get that extra toy from your owner to push it to the next level.

Or maybe that's why he stays. He enjoys the fight with one hand tied behind his shoulder blade. And he likes hearing you people complain...

[Infinite MAN_force]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

I think you are missing the point, the point here is that if the Pacers don't build a contender soon and instead keep dragging their feet PG will leave.


I mean PG has been nice to let the Pacers know that if they don't build a contender he is gone, in other words PG doesn't give a f*** how decent the Pacers have been in past years.

Sure, the team needs to put something resembling a contender around George or he's going to leave, I think he's been pretty straight forward about that.

However, Paul George is not a free agent this offseason. I've already pointed out there are means to make major improvements this offseason given the cap situation, a draft pick, and at least one tradeable veteran player who isn't necessarily part of the core on a reasonable contract.

My larger point, folks, is that the trade deadline is SEVERELY overrated in terms of improving the team. Wait for the offseason.

[freddielewis14]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

It was cowardly and unprofessional for the front office to not make any statement yesterday after the sort of turmoil they stirred up for the team and the fan base. To me, that is the final straw, regardless of how you think the Pacers should have handled trading PG (I'm team keep PG, but understand the appeal of the Boston package), for Bird to not speak AT ALL yesterday, is ridiculous and he is a coward.

I voted yes in the poll.

But you really think Bird is a coward, afraid to talk to the media? I don't think he cares.

[Since86]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

What's reactionary is the fact that this discussion is about the trade deadline. Be real.

No Deal > Bad Deal

There isn't a single post in this thread that has said they've based their decision on yesterday. So run with that.

[dgranger17]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

It was cowardly and unprofessional for the front office to not make any statement yesterday after the sort of turmoil they stirred up for the team and the fan base. To me, that is the final straw, regardless of how you think the Pacers should have handled trading PG (I'm team keep PG, but understand the appeal of the Boston package), for Bird to not speak AT ALL yesterday, is ridiculous and he is a coward.

Nothing happened, in case you didn't notice. Seriously, look it up. No deal was made. Why in the hell would he have to say anything to anyone? Is it because PG cried? If so, that only gives Larry more fuel to stay quiet. Can't blame him.

[freddielewis14]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

Has Bird been a bad GM over the last 7 years would be a good poll, because I think that's a different question than should he be fired.

[Infinite MAN_force]

Re: Should the Pacers fire Larry Bird?

Am I wrong to suppose everyone is pissed that we didn't make a deadline deal? If we made *some* deal would everyone feel a little more gooey inside? This is a bad approach.