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Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

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  • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

    Originally posted by Ichi View Post
    Monta is a good passer. Maybe we design a lot of cutting opportunities for him for easy buckets or (if the defense helps out) kickouts. Seriously, there is something that could be done with Ellis on the court if he is willing to accept it. He is good from the corner 3 as well. Baseline cuts with some screening action could go a long way.
    But this is coming from someone that thought he And G Hill had solid seasons last year. I liked Monta considering it was his first year with the team.
    It's not hard to see how he can help the team. Get steals, push the ball for fast beak points, move/cut on weaker defenders, get open drives for lay ups or kick it out to PG and Teague for threes.

    Not directed at you Ichi, but we all agree Monta isn't a perfect fit. That's done. So I'm thinking of how you make it work while some just throw their hands in the air and think it's impossible.
    Last edited by freddielewis14; 08-24-2016, 06:17 PM.

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    • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

      Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
      It's not hard to see how he can help the team. Gets steal, push the all for fast beak points, move/cut on weaker defenders, get open drives for lay ups or kick it out to PG and Teague for threes.

      Not directed at you Ichi, but we all agree Monta isn't a perfect fit. That's done. So I'm thinking of how you make it work while some just throw their hands in the air and think it's impossible.
      Yeah, I'm fully aware he isn't a perfect fit, but I think if we have some clever offensive design, our starting 5 can be a potent offensive punch.

      Comment


      • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

        Originally posted by Ichi View Post
        Yeah, I'm fully aware he isn't a perfect fit, but I think if we have some clever offensive design, our starting 5 can be a potent offensive punch.
        Don't want to sound like I was directing that at you. I know we're on the same page, and I totally agree.

        Comment


        • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

          Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
          Don't want to sound like I was directing that at you. I know we're on the same page, and I totally agree.
          Oh of course. I mean, I'd take a Reddick, Matthews, C Lee, etc type guy over him for our team anyday.

          Comment


          • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

            Originally posted by Ichi View Post
            Monta is a good passer. Maybe we design a lot of cutting opportunities for him for easy buckets or (if the defense helps out) kickouts. Seriously, there is something that could be done with Ellis on the court if he is willing to accept it. He is good from the corner 3 as well. Baseline cuts with some screening action could go a long way.
            But this is coming from someone that thought he And G Hill had solid seasons last year. I liked Monta considering it was his first year with the team.
            I think that's where we differ. I do not think that Hill nor Monta had good seasons last year. They didn't have bad seasons by any chance, but they didn't have good seasons either IMO.

            Neither guy was really able to excel together due to the poor fit and lack of imaginative offensive scheme. i can see a similar scenario with Teague and Monta. In fact, it may be a tad worse due to Teague being thought of as some marquee acquisition. He will not want to play off the ball nearly as much as Hill did. Nor should he. But the question is whether or not Monta will want to/be effective at playing off the ball so much.

            But if you thought Monta had a good season last year, then I could see how you would be encouraged. I just expected more when we acquired him.
            Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 08-24-2016, 07:44 PM.

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            • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

              Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
              I think that's where we differ. I do not think that Hill nor Monta had good seasons last year. They didn't have bad seasons by any chance, but they didn't have good seasons either IMO.

              Neither guy was really able to excel together due to the poor fit and lack of imaginative offensive scheme. i can see a similar scenario with Teague and Monta. In fact, it may be a tad worse due to Teague being thought of as some marquee acquisition. He will not want to play off the ball nearly as much as Hill did. Nor should he. But the question is whether or not Monta will want to/be effective at playing off the ball so much.

              But if you thought Monta had a good season last year, then I could see how you would be encouraged. I just expected more when we acquired him.
              I expected more out of Monta too, and I'm surprised to hear you blame Vogel on Monta.

              Sure, it played a role, but most of it is on Monta. He just wasn't the same same player he was a year ago. Not the finisher, not the shooter.

              But again, he does not have to be the second best player this year. He doesn't have to be a shooter. He doesn't have to lead the team in assists. If he starts, all he has to do is get steals and push the ball on fastbreaks. On offense all he has to do is take advantage of getting the weakest defender, which will likely mean fewer jumpshots and finding PG and Teague off screens and penetration.

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              • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
                I expected more out of Monta too, and I'm surprised to hear you blame Vogel on Monta.

                Sure, it played a role, but most of it is on Monta. He just wasn't the same same player he was a year ago. Not the finisher, not the shooter.

                But again, he does not have to be the second best player this year. He doesn't have to be a shooter. He doesn't have to lead the team in assists. If he starts, all he has to do is get steals and push the ball on fastbreaks. On offense all he has to do is take advantage of getting the weakest defender, which will likely mean fewer jumpshots and finding PG and Teague off screens and penetration.
                I assume when you say all he has to do, I agree with that mostly btw, but when you say assume I'M assuming you mean "best we can expect from Monta Ellis" stuff, not filling a role.

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                • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                  Originally posted by Heisenberg View Post
                  I assume when you say all he has to do, I agree with that mostly btw, but when you say assume I'M assuming you mean "best we can expect from Monta Ellis" stuff, not filling a role.
                  LOL, maybe I'm reading this weird but I'm confused

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                  • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                    Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
                    I expected more out of Monta too, and I'm surprised to hear you blame Vogel on Monta.

                    Sure, it played a role, but most of it is on Monta. He just wasn't the same same player he was a year ago. Not the finisher, not the shooter.

                    But again, he does not have to be the second best player this year. He doesn't have to be a shooter. He doesn't have to lead the team in assists. If he starts, all he has to do is get steals and push the ball on fastbreaks. On offense all he has to do is take advantage of getting the weakest defender, which will likely mean fewer jumpshots and finding PG and Teague off screens and penetration.
                    I'm not blaming Vogel at all. If anything I blame Bird for bringing in an older player coming off surgery who wasn't a fit with the rest of the roster.

                    I agree, Monta isn't the player he used to be. But our lack of creative offense only helped to make Monta's decline even more obvious.

                    If all he is doing is playing the role that you just specified, then we won't be getting much of a return. You want your starting 2guard to only focus on those areas when he's surrounded by stars around him. That's not the case here. We will need more production that that out of the 2 spot if we want to be a good team. Our lack of quality depth at the 2 only makes that fact more pronounced

                    Comment


                    • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                      Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
                      LOL, maybe I'm reading this weird but I'm confused
                      I'm saying Monta's what we got, and probably the best we got. so that's what HE needs to be/do, not like what you want out of the position.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                        Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
                        I'm not blaming Vogel at all. If anything I blame Bird for bringing in an older player coming off surgery who wasn't a fit with the rest of the roster.

                        I agree, Monta isn't the player he used to be. But our lack of creative offense only helped to make Monta's decline even more obvious.
                        The bold is a contradiction, no?

                        Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
                        If all he is doing is playing the role that you just specified, then we won't be getting much of a return.
                        I disagree, generating half a teams steals is a big deal. Being capable of driving on weaker players and putting pressure on the defense is a big deal.

                        I think people forget, Monta wasn't a great scorer last year, but still was a vital part of a 45 win team. It's reasonable to think as a 4th or 5th option facilitator he can be very effective.

                        I don't care what his stats are if we're winning.

                        Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
                        You want your starting 2guard to only focus on those areas when he's surrounded by stars around him. That's not the case here. We will need more production that that out of the 2 spot if we want to be a good team. Our lack of quality depth at the 2 only makes that fact more pronounced
                        We are going to be a good team if healthy, Monta doesn't change that.

                        That said, I think Monta is surrounded by players that can play at a star level. I have said that the role I'm speaking of obviously hinges on Teague, PG, Thad and Turner playing at a high level. Hence why Monta would be 5th or 6th in scoring (possibly after Al Jefferson).

                        Comment


                        • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                          Originally posted by Heisenberg View Post
                          I'm saying Monta's what we got, and probably the best we got. so that's what HE needs to be/do, not like what you want out of the position.
                          Correct, it would be better with another shooter, defensive minded great passing wing and Monta off the bench. If we landed that we would be in Finals talk.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                            Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
                            The bold is a contradiction, no?
                            You're misunderstanding because I'm not explaining well enough. Monta's struggles were due to the fact that his physical skills are diminishing. Playing within an offense that is a bit more imaginative would have helped a bit, but I think he would have still struggled as a high usage statrting 2 guard. He was already beginning to slip a bit with Dallas post ASB.

                            Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
                            I disagree, generating half a teams steals is a big deal. Being capable of driving on weaker players and putting pressure on the defense is a big deal.

                            I think people forget, Monta wasn't a great scorer last year, but still was a vital part of a 45 win team. It's reasonable to think as a 4th or 5th option facilitator he can be very effective.

                            I don't care what his stats are if we're winning.
                            Monta was a pretty good player on an average team (although he wasn't very good in the playoffs) I'm not disputing that. I don't see him playing the role that you specified (4th or 5th option facilitator). But we won't know until we see them play. I'm simply going off of his 10+ years in the league.


                            Originally posted by freddielewis14 View Post
                            We are going to be a good team if healthy, Monta doesn't change that.

                            That said, I think Monta is surrounded by players that can play at a star level. I have said that the role I'm speaking of obviously hinges on Teague, PG, Thad and Turner playing at a high level. Hence why Monta would be 5th or 6th in scoring (possibly after Al Jefferson).
                            We have one bonafide AS on this team. Teague played in one AS game during a season where pretty much everything fell into place for Atlanta. I wouldn't call it a fluke, but he's been in a very PG friendly offense and hasn't exactly been an annual AS type of player for most of his career. I think Turner is still a year or two-ish away from playing at that kind of level consistently. Thad Young has NEVER sniffed an AS appearance. And Al Jefferson stopped being at that level a year and a half ago.

                            I'm not in love with our roster by any means, but we should be able to win between 45 and 50 games. I know we won 45 games last year, but we have to take into consideration all of our new faces. It will take a while for everyone to find their role, get comfortable with the system, etc.

                            I won't argue it anymore. If you think Monta is going to all of a sudden become a low usage facilitator, then I'll just disagree. Again, we can't know until we see the team play. I'll be more than happy to admit that I'm wrong if that were to occur, but something tells me that I won't be.

                            I'll either get to say "I told you so!", or I'll be wrong and we will be a very good team. Either way, I win

                            Comment


                            • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                              Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
                              You're misunderstanding because I'm not explaining well enough. Monta's struggles were due to the fact that his physical skills are diminishing. Playing within an offense that is a bit more imaginative would have helped a bit, but I think he would have still struggled as a high usage statrting 2 guard. He was already beginning to slip a bit with Dallas post ASB.



                              Monta was a pretty good player on an average team (although he wasn't very good in the playoffs) I'm not disputing that. I don't see him playing the role that you specified (4th or 5th option facilitator). But we won't know until we see them play. I'm simply going off of his 10+ years in the league.




                              We have one bonafide AS on this team. Teague played in one AS game during a season where pretty much everything fell into place for Atlanta. I wouldn't call it a fluke, but he's been in a very PG friendly offense and hasn't exactly been an annual AS type of player for most of his career. I think Turner is still a year or two-ish away from playing at that kind of level consistently. Thad Young has NEVER sniffed an AS appearance. And Al Jefferson stopped being at that level a year and a half ago.

                              I'm not in love with our roster by any means, but we should be able to win between 45 and 50 games. I know we won 45 games last year, but we have to take into consideration all of our new faces. It will take a while for everyone to find their role, get comfortable with the system, etc.

                              I won't argue it anymore. If you think Monta is going to all of a sudden become a low usage facilitator, then I'll just disagree. Again, we can't know until we see the team play. I'll be more than happy to admit that I'm wrong if that were to occur, but something tells me that I won't be.

                              I'll either get to say "I told you so!", or I'll be wrong and we will be a very good team. Either way, I win
                              Yea, I'm not saying Monta will play the role I've specified, I'm only saying nothing he's done proves he can't. He can drive, he can steal, he can pass.

                              I didn't say All Star btw, I just said Teague, Turner, PG and Thad (Al Jeff of the bench) can play at a high enough level were Monta only has to play the role I'm talking about.

                              I think this is an ECF team as is and can win a championship if we found another wing to start (3 and D) and played Monta off the bench, so you know how I feel about the roster.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Summer of 2016 off season trade/draft rumor mill thread.

                                I think we are jumping the gun a bit on Monta. Last year he was still catching up from the injury and getting used to a new team. I want to give the man a chance. If things aren't going great by the deadline re-visit trade scenarios.

                                Comment

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