All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

[PacersPride]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

The wheels on the bus go round and round.

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Im steering clear of this thread until the season starts. ive now goofed up once or twice and posted here. its truly gotten to the point of insanity all things roy hibbert. its pretty darn obvious its not just on one poster from this board keeping the "wheels on the bus going round and round." almot 1500 posts in a months time and we havent even hit the season yet.


for me: the bigger picture is no matter how much we sit and dissect every aspect of roy hibberts game it will always be the same conclusion.

Roy is for the most part an average to solid player - yet here at PD he is spoken of as if he is elite. jjust want to review this list for old times sake. just to illustrate where roy stacks up.


Elite Centers: these are guys you can build a franchise around.

Horford, Al Jeff, Drummond, D12, Jordan, Gasol, A Davis, Vucavic, Duncan, Cousins, Gobert.



Solid centers: some borderline on elite, others borderline average.

Brook Lopez, Noah, Mozgov, Bogut, Whiteside, Towns, Monroe, Kanter, Okafor, Chandler, Valancius, Gortat


Average centers:

Zeller/Olynyk, Zaza, Nurkic, Asik, Lopez, Mason Plumlee




scrutinize every aspect of roys game we like here at PD, will not change the fact he does not belong in the elite tier of centers, where he stacks up on the solid to average is varies among many for PD.

But one thing is certain, there are at least 5-6 centers on the solid tier that you are taking over Roy to begin a franchise.

Roy is anywhere from 15-20 something in terms of overall rankings among just centers. that is average by most standards in the league.

so why is it then we have 1500 comments in over a month during the season regarding roy, because for some reason many still consider roy elite yet ask them to rank where he stands among his peers at the respective position and all you are gonna hear is crickets.

Roy is about the 20th rank center in this league and yet all summer long were gonna hear that roy's overbloated contract and average skillset is irreplaceable.

Bird made it clear. Roy is not a Franchise cornerstone. Hell at what one time I believed he was as well, but I have since seen the light.

Many are going to see it one way or another this upcoming season when Roy ventures out West to play among the elite. The west is absolutely stacked.

some are gonna feel awful silly raving on day after day about an average overpaid center.


rant/

[spazzxb]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

So is he a good offensive player?

If it wasn't for the free throws.

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[Ace E.Anderson]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I don't think anyone is saying he's a franchise Center. You could design a defensive system around his strengths, but nobody thinks he's a franchise guy. Nor should they. His talent level doesn't call for that

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I don't think it's that difficult. A 12% 3pt shooter, isn't a threat regardless if he's a center or a point guard. I'm just trying to figure out if you really think every player that shoots 3s, because they'll be guarded as no one is left open every trip, is considered an offensive threat.

And if you're not saying that every 3pt shooter is a threat, what is the cut off line between threat and non threat?

Normally, if Hibbert floats to the 3 pt line as a shooter, he isn't guarded closely nor would a team change their game plan if Hibbert decided to shoot threes.

The Pacers changed their game plan for Antic! Meaning, Frank saw his Antic's shooting as a threat. I, myself, do not see Antic as a threat. But if a coach changes their game plan for a center that shoots 3s, and that game plan removes your slow All NBA defense Center from paint, or crossmatches changing what you have done all season (impose will) then that coach DOES see Antic as a threat to hit 3s and hurt the Pacers chances of winning.

How can this be debated? The Pacers saw this player as someone that could threaten their chances of winning with his shooting….

"When you're guarding a big that can shoot 3s, it's obviously a different feel," Hibbert said. "But we have time to prepare for it." - Hibert

"He's just one of those players that when you watch him play against us, the numbers really don't make sense. To me, he's a heck of a basketball player and someone we have to account for," Pacers coach Frank Vogel said.

"These type of guys are the toughest challenge for Roy, but he's done it (before). He's guarded a lot of 3-point shooters this year. ... He's seen this situation a number of times. We've worked on a lot of coverages to minimize the damage."

If Roy's "toughest challenge" isn't seen as a threat by Frank, where he changes philosophy, what is?

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

A player is a threat if the coach thinks he is and plans accordingly. That's what happened here, otherwise we wouldn't have been pulling bigs from the paint to cover him.

Every player in the NBA has a scouting report and will be guarded, where ever they end up on the court. That means every player would be considered a threat.

The definition has to be a little more specific than "well, he's guarded so "

[Jay@Section12]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Seriously, sometimes genius is offset by inexperience. As long as Frank is learning from his mistakes, he's getting better.

Exactly. And in the Spring of 2014, he made plenty of them due entirely to inexperience and then we had a devastating injury dismantle the next season so it hasn't been easy yet to for us outsiders to see if he's learned from them.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

If Roy's "toughest challenge" isn't seen as a threat by Frank, where he changes philosophy, what is?

Of course Roy's toughest challenge is guarding the perimeter. That doesn't mean by extension that Petro Antic is an offensive threat.

ANY big's toughest challenge defensively is guarding the perimeter. That's why they're bigs, not wings.

I think the fact that you just admitted that you don't personally find Antic a threat sums this up. You're arguing something you don't even believe. That's about as good of an admission as anything.

[BillS]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Every player in the NBA has a scouting report and will be guarded, where ever they end up on the court. That means every player would be considered a threat.

Ahh. So when a player is double teamed the defense is sneaking a sixth guy onto the floor?

Every player on an NBA team is not guarded every single minute on offense unless the opponents have 5 amazing one-on-one defenders. Offenses are usually designed to exploit a mismatch (which defenses try to plan for by bringing help, leaving someone open), slipping a defender to get an open look (by definition leaving a defender behind), or exploit the help defense listed first. Defenses are designed to make the open man the offense is trying to get be the least effective at the position he was left open.

Losing your rim defender to a guy shooting poorly from outside was a poor move by Frank. Granted, with the intricacies of NBA defensive rules it isn't as easy as it sounds just to leave your big in the paint when everyone on offense rotates to the perimeter, but it can be done.

Teams absolutely plan based on the player who is the least threat and routinely leave that player open if the expected harm is extremely low.

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Every player in the NBA has a scouting report and will be guarded, where ever they end up on the court. That means every player would be considered a threat.

The definition has to be a little more specific than "well, he's guarded so "

“I think Pero Antic is a good player,” said Pacers coach Frank Vogel. “I know he’s not very well-known but he’s a very good player. It’s not Pero Antic, it’s the uniqueness of their team’s offensive attack. That’s what makes him become a focal point.”

"We just need to do a better job of recognizing what (Antic) does," Paul George told the Indy Star. "Our bigs are so good at protecting the paint and now they have to go out and (defend) a spread five man. It's a tough cover."

“Having a spread four and a spread five, getting Big Dog out of the paint helped them a little bit,” said Lance Stephenson.

So we know the team saw Antic as a threat. This can't be debated a "tough cover" and "focal point" aren't terms thrown out for every player. Then Bruno highlights the trouble on defense…

Defensively, the Pacers’ problem with Antic has started on the perimeter, where George Hill has struggled mightily to contain the quickness of Hawks point guard Jeff Teague. That has left Hibbert in no-man’s land, caught between chasing his man to the perimeter and providing help in the lane. When Hibbert chooses to provide help, the defenders assigned to rotate and cover Antic have been either too small to contest his shot or too late in arriving to disrupt his rhythm.

So you can post shooting percentages all day. But Hibbert struggled with Atlanta on defense, and when he didn't perform on offense it left us no choice but to play him 21 mpg. When Hibbert played well, the Pacers won.

http://blogs.1070thefan.com/2014/04/16/pacers-hibbert-must-counter-hawks-pero-pressure/

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I think the fact that you just admitted that you don't personally find Antic a threat sums this up. You're arguing something you don't even believe. That's about as good of an admission as anything.

No! I'm arguing the threat of Antic (which the Pacers game planned for) made Roy play like crap on defense. And anyone who watched Roy float around in that series could see that.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Ahh. So when a player is double teamed the defense is sneaking a sixth guy onto the floor?

Huh? Freddie is saying that because Antic was guarded at the 3pt, that automatically means he's a threat. I don't know where you get anything about double teamed from that.

Every player on an NBA team is not guarded every single minute on offense unless the opponents have 5 amazing one-on-one defenders. Offenses are usually designed to exploit a mismatch (which defenses try to plan for by bringing help, leaving someone open), slipping a defender to get an open look (by definition leaving a defender behind), or exploit the help defense listed first. Defenses are designed to make the open man the offense is trying to get be the least effective at the position he was left open.

Did I say "every minute?" Nope. I'm trying to figure out a specific definition of the word "threat" from Freddie. And all he's said so far is that Antic was guarded while at the 3pt line, so that makes him an offensive threat. That's it.

Teams absolutely plan based on the player who is the least threat and routinely leave that player open if the expected harm is extremely low.

Yes they do, which is why we saw Roy having to run out to Antic/Millsap on the 3pt line when ATL would run their PnR's. The threat for the Hawks was Teague's penetration. The Pacers designed their gameplan to stop that, and give up perimeter shooting. It worked.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

So we know the team saw Antic as a threat. This can't be debated a "tough cover" and "focal point" aren't terms thrown out for every player. Then Bruno highlights the trouble on defense…



So you can post shooting percentages all day. But Hibbert struggled with Atlanta on defense, and when he didn't perform on offense it left us no choice but to play him 21 mpg. When Hibbert played well, the Pacers won.

http://blogs.1070thefan.com/2014/04/...pero-pressure/

A few pages ago we talked about PR talk by coaches? This would be an example.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

No! I'm arguing the threat of Antic (which the Pacers game planned for) made Roy play like crap on defense. And anyone who watched Roy float around in that series could see that.

They game plan for everyone.

If Antic made Roy play like crap on defense, I bet the Lakers hope every player he faces makes him look like crap. I think they'd take, and I'd take, "crap" if it resulted in sub 20% shooting. You can pick whatever word you'd like, but no matter which one you do, none will change the fact we're talking about 12% from 3pt line and 17% overall.

If that's playing crap defensively, I hope every player in a Pacers jersey plays crap defense.

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

They game plan for everyone.

If Antic made Roy play like crap on defense, I bet the Lakers hope every player he faces makes him look like crap. I think they'd take, and I'd take, "crap" if it resulted in sub 20% shooting. You can pick whatever word you'd like, but no matter which one you do, none will change the fact we're talking about 12% from 3pt line and 17% overall.

If that's playing crap defensively, I hope every player in a Pacers jersey plays crap defense.

So you disagree that this happened…

Defensively, the Pacers’ problem with Antic has started on the perimeter, where George Hill has struggled mightily to contain the quickness of Hawks point guard Jeff Teague. That has left Hibbert in no-man’s land, caught between chasing his man to the perimeter and providing help in the lane. When Hibbert chooses to provide help, the defenders assigned to rotate and cover Antic have been either too small to contest his shot or too late in arriving to disrupt his rhythm.

Because this is exactly what I saw.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

No matter how much spin you put on this, none of it will change the fact that Antic/Millsap and the Hawks as a team played pretty badly offensively. Sub40% shooting as a team would have been last in the NBA by a very wide margin. Only on PD can that be an example of how Roy Hibbert can't play defense against teams like the Hawks.