Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

[BlueNGold]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

He's basing it on looking at Lance's defense in it's entirety. You're right, Lance is a plus defender on the ball. In fact, Lance is very good on the ball and very good at containing penetration where he can utilize his strength and his length. He's definitely better at guarding bigger SF's than he is 2-guards where he can utilize his strength more and more.

He is not quite as good against players that have a good second, or even 3rd offensive move - as his lack of lateral quickness hurts him here (see D.Wade) He also struggles against guys that spot up, move off the ball, and/or can spread the floor - as he tends to ball watch so that he can get into position to rebound.

He's also not a guy that creates turnovers, blocks shots, etc.

So what you have is a very very good on the ball defender, an un-disciplined off the ball defender, and a guy that doesn't create turnovers. Eleazar seems to believe (and I could be wrong) that Lance's off the ball defense averages out his on-ball defense - which equates to an average defender.

Just my $0.02

I generally agree with this, but it's a little unfair talking about Lance's defense when he is inevitably compared to Paul George who may be the best overall wing defender in the league. Nobody is in the passing lanes like Paul. In reality, Hill might even be a better defender overall but Lance is still above average. People need to realize that we had the best D in the entire league last year and all of these guys are above or well above average on D. That includes West and Hibbert.

[McKeyFan]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

Question: with Waiters and Irving at odds and Cleveland open to another 2 guard, might Lance have found himself in contention for a spot on Cleveland had he not been such a thorn in Lebron's side?

[owl]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

You guys obviously have a different definition of a power post team. Power post teams impose their will on other teams. They repeatedly go to their bigs on post-ups even when other teams know that is what they are going to run and they execute. There is no emphasis on posting wings & point guards (exactly what current team in the NBA emphasizes this in their offense??) and there is minimal deception required to get the post-up guys the ball. Good teams with this approach have personnel that carve out space, personnel that can deliver the ball and they catch the ball and go to work. The 2-games Bynum played last year was the closest anybody saw this team effectively run that offense.

So very true. Now should the Pacers try and go inside out? Sure but last year teams packed the middle and dared the Pacers to shoot from outside. From three or two. Neither was very efficient. The Pacers need better shooters and they need some slashers but mostly they need some shooters to make teams pay for packing the middle.
Roy can do better but unfortunately Mahinmi will never be an offensive threat. With Copeland and Rudez and hopefully a better PG that can be improved upon.

[cgg]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

What are you basing that on? Lance is a plus defender, this is fairly well known.

I'm not touching the rebounding thing, because you actually said Roy will average 2 more boards per game for the whole season. Bookmarked!

Technically, he was one of three rotational players that the defense was better when he was off the court, with Scola and Turner.

[Downtown Bang!]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

Being a power post team is more than just the big's posting. It is being able to post 1 thru 5 if a guy is defended by a minus defender. Teams get away guarding Paul with guys that are 6 inches shorter all the time. Just remember Danny before his knee injury. Put an undersized guy on him and Danny instantly took him into the post. Paul either couldn't or wouldn't use his height advantage last season. Lance has good size at the 2, but didn't want to post either. He'd rather use his size off the bounce instead. GHill can post guys, but no one ever seemed to be able to get him the ball when he did. Being a power post team means posting all your guys, not just your bigs.

I couldn't disagree more with the last part of your post.
Our offense was at it's most effective when we would play from the inside out. Very few teams can defend Hibbert and West in the paint. I know Hibbert struggled at the end of the season but he's shown that he can be effective when we include him in the offensive plan. Hibbert and West are also very good passers for big men. We need to establish our post game to start every game which will open up the perimeter and we have the tools to do it. Our struggles started when Vogel gave the reins to Lance and Paul which turned us into a jump shooting team.

By crashing the boards and getting extra possessions. The 12'-13' team proved that can be successful. Hibbert has never been an efficient post player. But you get extra possessions and keep hammering. That team led the league in points in the paint. Led the league in Rebounding.

Don't you think we were the easiest team to defend in the league last year? All we did was settle for pull up long jumpers. Teams made us one-dimensional and the Pacers were all too happy to shoot the same shots we want to force our opponents into.. Long range 2's.

Thats why Vogel is the most maddening of coaches in my opinion. Defense: Cover the paint and perimeter and force long 2's. Offense: settle for long 2's. Even Scola and West's bread and butter jumpers were long 2's toward the end of the season because defenses were forcing our PnR higher and higher.

You guys obviously have a different definition of a power post team. Power post teams impose their will on other teams. They repeatedly go to their bigs on post-ups even when other teams know that is what they are going to run and they execute. There is no emphasis on posting wings & point guards (exactly what current team in the NBA emphasizes this in their offense??) and there is minimal deception required to get the post-up guys the ball. Good teams with this approach have personnel that carve out space, personnel that can deliver the ball and they catch the ball and go to work. The 2-games Bynum played last year was the closest anybody saw this team effectively run that offense.

Calling this team a power post team is like saying an NFL team that averages 3.6 yards a carry & can't convert short yardage is a power running team just because that is a scheme they try to run. The Pacers repeatedly tried to establish this type of offense last year with Hibbert & West and it failed miserably. The only time it has ever worked with any consistency is in the 2013 ECF against the defensively woeful Heat front line.

Hibbert & West do need to score effectively in the painted area but those opportunities should not come off of power post entries. Those two are only going to be consistently effective game in and game out getting their touches by catching drop offs after penetration, duck-ins off the baseline (probably after penetration or excellent ball movement) and when slipping picks high to catch a pass on the move or faking picks low only to turn and catch the ball deep in the paint. Deception and action off designed motion is how these guys score effectively in the paint. This is not a power post game and because of the limitations of the two of them it requires they receive the ball at almost point blank range. Hibbert has his reputation as a underachieving offensive performer for a reason and there is also a reason West's nickname is the 18-foot assassin.

I agree the team will need to focus on rebounding in order to get extra possessions and easy put backs. The problem with that approach is the Pacers advantage on the boards the last 2 seasons came from George, Stephenson & Hill not from Hibbert & West. All three of those guys rebounded at a very high rate for their position. Trouble is the best one (cue Lance stealing rebounds comments) is playing in Charlotte next year. It is worth the effort but I'm not expecting the same results with Stuckey & Miles.

[Eleazar]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

So what you have is a very very good on the ball defender, an un-disciplined off the ball defender, and a guy that doesn't create turnovers. Eleazar seems to believe (and I could be wrong) that Lance's off the ball defense averages out his on-ball defense - which equates to an average defender.

I think he is an ok on-ball defender, who can be an excellent on-ball defender when he tries. Yeah, he is poor off the ball. For him it is just about effort, and he doesn't always put in the effort.

[Ace E.Anderson]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

What are you basing that on? Lance is a plus defender, this is fairly well known.

I'm not touching the rebounding thing, because you actually said Roy will average 2 more boards per game for the whole season. Bookmarked!

He's basing it on looking at Lance's defense in it's entirety. You're right, Lance is a plus defender on the ball. In fact, Lance is very good on the ball and very good at containing penetration where he can utilize his strength and his length. He's definitely better at guarding bigger SF's than he is 2-guards where he can utilize his strength more and more.

He is not quite as good against players that have a good second, or even 3rd offensive move - as his lack of lateral quickness hurts him here (see D.Wade) He also struggles against guys that spot up, move off the ball, and/or can spread the floor - as he tends to ball watch so that he can get into position to rebound.

He's also not a guy that creates turnovers, blocks shots, etc.

So what you have is a very very good on the ball defender, an un-disciplined off the ball defender, and a guy that doesn't create turnovers. Eleazar seems to believe (and I could be wrong) that Lance's off the ball defense averages out his on-ball defense - which equates to an average defender.

Just my $0.02

[Eleazar]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

I'd agree if he routinely bageled in rebounding, but he doesn't. He's never been an elite rebounder, but he's never been terrible. He always had his ups and downs, but last season was especially strange because hibbert played the best and worst basketball of his career (like usual), but he timed it oppositely of how he usually does.

If there's complaints to be had for hibbert, they can be made, but the worst game of his career is not the norm for his 6 years just because its embarrassing. Especially since he followed it up by averaging 20 points and 8 rebounds in his next 3 games.

Yup, Paul George laid an egg once. He then went on to have a break out season, and get an All-NBA nod.

[aamcguy]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

Doesn't matter. He is 7ft. How can u not grab 1 rebound? Idc about not scoring but not grabbing a single rebound? Trash

I'd agree if he routinely bageled in rebounding, but he doesn't. He's never been an elite rebounder, but he's never been terrible. He always had his ups and downs, but last season was especially strange because hibbert played the best and worst basketball of his career (like usual), but he timed it oppositely of how he usually does.

If there's complaints to be had for hibbert, they can be made, but the worst game of his career is not the norm for his 6 years just because its embarrassing. Especially since he followed it up by averaging 20 points and 8 rebounds in his next 3 games.

[BornIndy]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

You rang?

Lol

[aamcguy]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

Aamcguy

You rang?

[BornIndy]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

Give me an example of a player in our team (you can even include lance in this one) that has never had a dud of a game. Restrict it to playoff games if you would like. Tell me that player exists and I'll take 5 minutes and find a terrible game or 2.

Doesn't matter. He is 7ft. How can u not grab 1 rebound? Idc about not scoring but not grabbing a single rebound? Trash

[aamcguy]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

And there were also a couple of games the playoffs where he grab ZERO

Give me an example of a player in our team (you can even include lance in this one) that has never had a dud of a game. Restrict it to playoff games if you would like. Tell me that player exists and I'll take 5 minutes and find a terrible game or 2.

[Eleazar]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

What are you basing that on? Lance is a plus defender, this is fairly well known.

I'm not touching the rebounding thing, because you actually said Roy will average 2 more boards per game for the whole season. Bookmarked!

Yes, because Roy hasn't ever averaged 8.6RPG or more in a season. He didn't average 8.8 and 8.3 RPG the previous two seasons. When I say he will he will average 2 more, I am saying I think he will average somewhere between 8.2 and 8.8 RPG. Pre-ASB he was averaging 7.7 RPG. Which is 1.1 RPG higher than his season ending average.

(8.8 + 8.3)/2 = 8.55

[BornIndy]

Re: Zach Lowe on Lance and Pacer's loss

What do you mean can't get 1? He averaged 6.6 for the year. While not a great number, George hill, Paul George, and lance Stephenson were all above average rebounders for their positions.

And there were also a couple of games the playoffs where he grab ZERO