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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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  • I can't reply to CJ's post because he posted a twitter...but the big drunk idiot had one thing right. They did assault him and more important they don't seem to know what assault is. Flipping someone off and cursing them is not illegal. Coughing at someone is not assault either, unless he claimed to have the virus or knew he had it. He did neither. I realize that may come as a surprise to some weak kneed, whiney azz liberals.

    Still, that guy was a complete and utter moron and no I have no relation or respect for him. Maybe even less than the whiney azz liberals.

    Comment


    • Nick Saban test positive.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Peck View Post

        If you would like I will start posting daily the organized protest/gatherings/riots held by the left, because I can if you wish. I am not saying one is better than the other, I just get tired of the hypocritical notion that every time someone right of Ho Chi Min gets together some of you get on here and show us how the virus is spreading like wildfire because of them yet have zero and I mean ZERO to say when it is shown that thousands and sometimes tens of thousands gather in confined spaces shoulder to shoulder often times not wearing a mask and yelling at the top of their lungs. The virus spreads air born, in close proximity and does not care about your political beliefs.
        There has been some studies on outdoor spread and the protest.

        “We’re not saying the protests didn’t cause more cases, an assessment that will require substantial, additional analyses” he added. “It’s just that if they were the key drivers, then you would expect the places that had the most protesters to have the biggest surge, and, in fact, the opposite is the case.”
        https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/0...l-study-finds/

        “There is a clear and significant negative correlation between the percentage of a state’s population who reported protesting and the subsequent increase in cases of COVID-19.”
        I think people have to be careful of false equivalence here. A campaign is different than justice reform. One could argue convincingly that a political campaign can be successful without assembly. However justice reform on this magnitude does not happen without assembly.
        Last edited by Gamble1; 10-14-2020, 07:48 PM.

        Comment


        • I'm just about decided I am not voting Holcomb this year. And him losing my vote is not going to be the same reason that he's losing a lot of votes to Rainwater. It's the opposite. I think he went from a good coronavirus response to a questionable one. Then sort of redeemed himself... but then has allowed Trumpism to dictate policy more than health and science. Today might be the last straw.

          Let me explain-
          The initial response was pretty solid I thought. Probably a little weak on pushing masks early as he could've, yet had science behind him.

          But Trump was fanning the flames for governors to "open it up!!!"... and of course "Liberate!...".

          The Indiana Back on Track plan seemed to jump thru the stages a little fast. Didn't promote mask wearing like it should've IMO either. But the first couple of stages seemed at least OK with the exception of allowing full church congregations as soon as it did. That could've waited and been implemented in stages with everything else.

          And then a couple of times, he went ahead and jumped the gun and proclaimed we were doing so good we're just going to move the next stage up from after the weekend to before it. That, to me, sent the wrong signals. Plus, the stages, allegedly were created at the steps they were for a reason. Moving a stage up, for example, to allow larger Memorial Day gatherings didn't seem all that smart in the big picture. And, like I said, sent the wrong signal anyway.

          My real issue with this part comes with June and July and the jump from stage 4 to 5. A jump from 250 person gatherings on July 3rd, to unlimited on July 4th. What??? I still believe the Back on Track plan was a race... a race to the race... Trying to carve out a way for the Indy Grand Prix, The BY400, and ultimately the Indy 500 to have fans. There would still be social distancing guidelines via the CDC to figure out, but the state itself wasn't going to be the one stopping them. Also, this would've allowed fairs and summer festivals a window too.

          Everyone who wasn't listening to Trump, knew this second wave was likely coming though. That summer window, if it came at all, would not be the end of this.

          The governor's plan effectively sent the signal that Stage 5 was the "All Clear" (or to steal his phrase from today "The checkered flag (on the pandemic)".

          But... we never got to Stage 5. We still haven't, truth be told.

          Instead, we went to a modified Stage 4.5. And that was a LOT more like what Stage 5 should've been anyway. Had it been structured that way to begin with, nobody would've seen it as the checkered flag on the pandemic.
          Then came the mask mandate.
          Then the AG stole some of Holcomb's thunder by declaring it unenforceable. I can't blame Holcomb for that. And at this point into things, Holcomb was doing the right things again for the most part.

          But Trump continued his onslaught denying the virus, or the seriousness of it. Making masks a political issue. Making taking the virus seriously a political issue. And still pressuring governors to "open up".

          Eventually, Holcomb announced he was taking us to Stage 5. Our final stage. What many saw as the all clear stage due to the initial info around the Back on Track Plan. But THIS Stage 5 wasn't THAT Stage 5.

          It was more optics and politics than truly moving to a less restrictive phase. Crowd limits remained. Yes, there was still a way to hold larger crowds, if you had a plan your local health dept would sign off on.

          Thru all of this the door remained open to hold the Indy 500... with fans... a LOT of fans. That was, IMHO, stupid.

          This idea of the state allowing large gatherings if the local health dept would sign off on it was a part of that (still is) and is also stupid. There's too much local pressure, virus denial, and Trumpism to trust rural counties to do the right thing if presented with that option.

          I didn't and don't like that....

          And then today, with things going the wrong way... He more or less announced we'll stay in Stage 5... the mask mandate will remain. I think the optics of stepping back to 4.5 or even 4 would've served more good. Especially when you consider the things he DID say about how things were going the wrong direction. And yet there is a change now...

          He tossed the hot potato back to the counties to be the ones to take mitigation actions. They have recommendations, based on where your county color code puts you, but even with red, there's only a "state health dept CAN implement..." restrictions rule. Not a "WILL implement restrictions".

          This, to me, is a nod to Trump. A Trumpist style reaction. He didn't do the more prudent thing because he's trying to stem the bleeding of votes to Rainwater. Therefore, he put the pandemic mitigation response, at a time when the pandemic is going the wrong way, in the hands of local county officials. The same local county officials who are already in virus denial, or answering to Trumpian voters who are in virus denial. Does anyone really think a rural, GOP heavy county, is going to take any kind of proactive measures unless it's just absolutely forced to once it's already too late?

          The only real difference in this response and Trump's is Holcomb clearly said the right things. He noted the seriousness of the virus. He told people Stage 5 is not the checkered flag on the virus. He noted the importance of masks. They talked about the risk of even family gatherings. But yet, when he had the option to put some action behind those words, he didn't.

          So... That might've been my last straw for supporting him. I don't know anything about Rainwater, but the fact he's getting huge Trumpian support from what is essentially former GOP voters pretty much tells me what I need to know there I imagine.

          My apologies for such a short post...
          Last edited by Bball; 10-14-2020, 07:39 PM.
          Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

          ------

          "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

          -John Wooden

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Peck View Post

            If you would like I will start posting daily the organized protest/gatherings/riots held by the left, because I can if you wish. I am not saying one is better than the other, I just get tired of the hypocritical notion that every time someone right of Ho Chi Min gets together some of you get on here and show us how the virus is spreading like wildfire because of them yet have zero and I mean ZERO to say when it is shown that thousands and sometimes tens of thousands gather in confined spaces shoulder to shoulder often times not wearing a mask and yelling at the top of their lungs. The virus spreads air born, in close proximity and does not care about your political beliefs.
            The best close to home example is Malcolm Brogdon, who tested positive for COVID upon initial testing during the NBA return. The potential reason for that was a picture of Brogdon holding a megaphone at Black Lives Matter protest, maskless.

            Brogdon seems like a smart person. But that was an irresponsible decision.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bball View Post
              I'm just about decided I am not voting Holcomb this year. And him losing my vote is not going to be the same reason that he's losing a lot of votes to Rainwater. It's the opposite. I think he went from a good coronavirus response to a questionable one. Then sort of redeemed himself... but then has allowed Trumpism to dictate policy more than health and science. Today might be the last straw.

              Let me explain-
              The initial response was pretty solid I thought. Probably a little weak on pushing masks early as he could've, yet had science behind him.

              But Trump was fanning the flames for governors to "open it up!!!"... and of course "Liberate!...".

              The Indiana Back on Track plan seemed to jump thru the stages a little fast. Didn't promote mask wearing like it should've IMO either. But the first couple of stages seemed at least OK with the exception of allowing full church congregations as soon as it did. That could've waited and been implemented in stages with everything else.

              And then a couple of times, he went ahead and jumped the gun and proclaimed we were doing so good we're just going to move the next stage up from after the weekend to before it. That, to me, sent the wrong signals. Plus, the stages, allegedly were created at the steps they were for a reason. Moving a stage up, for example, to allow larger Memorial Day gatherings didn't seem all that smart in the big picture. And, like I said, sent the wrong signal anyway.

              My real issue with this part comes with June and July and the jump from stage 4 to 5. A jump from 250 person gatherings on July 3rd, to unlimited on July 4th. What??? I still believe the Back on Track plan was a race... a race to the race... Trying to carve out a way for the Indy Grand Prix, The BY400, and ultimately the Indy 500 to have fans. There would still be social distancing guidelines via the CDC to figure out, but the state itself wasn't going to be the one stopping them. Also, this would've allowed fairs and summer festivals a window too.

              Everyone who wasn't listening to Trump, knew this second wave was likely coming though. That summer window, if it came at all, would not be the end of this.

              The governor's plan effectively sent the signal that Stage 5 was the "All Clear" (or to steal his phrase from today "The checkered flag (on the pandemic)".

              But... we never got to Stage 5. We still haven't, truth be told.

              Instead, we went to a modified Stage 4.5. And that was a LOT more like what Stage 5 should've been anyway. Had it been structured that way to begin with, nobody would've seen it as the checkered flag on the pandemic.
              Then came the mask mandate.
              Then the AG stole some of Holcomb's thunder by declaring it unenforceable. I can't blame Holcomb for that. And at this point into things, Holcomb was doing the right things again for the most part.

              But Trump continued his onslaught denying the virus, or the seriousness of it. Making masks a political issue. Making taking the virus seriously a political issue. And still pressuring governors to "open up".

              Eventually, Holcomb announced he was taking us to Stage 5. Our final stage. What many saw as the all clear stage due to the initial info around the Back on Track Plan. But THIS Stage 5 wasn't THAT Stage 5.

              It was more optics and politics than truly moving to a less restrictive phase. Crowd limits remained. Yes, there was still a way to hold larger crowds, if you had a plan your local health dept would sign off on.

              Thru all of this the door remained open to hold the Indy 500... with fans... a LOT of fans. That was, IMHO, stupid.

              This idea of the state allowing large gatherings if the local health dept would sign off on it was a part of that (still is) and is also stupid. There's too much local pressure, virus denial, and Trumpism to trust rural counties to do the right thing if presented with that option.

              I didn't and don't like that....

              And then today, with things going the wrong way... He more or less announced we'll stay in Stage 5... the mask mandate will remain. I think the optics of stepping back to 4.5 or even 4 would've served more good. Especially when you consider the things he DID say about how things were going the wrong direction. And yet there is a change now...

              He tossed the hot potato back to the counties to be the ones to take mitigation actions. They have recommendations, based on where your county color code puts you, but even with red, there's only a "state health dept CAN implement..." restrictions rule. Not a "WILL implement restrictions".

              This, to me, is a nod to Trump. A Trumpist style reaction. He didn't do the more prudent thing because he's trying to stem the bleeding of votes to Rainwater. Therefore, he put the pandemic mitigation response, at a time when the pandemic is going the wrong way, in the hands of local county officials. The same local county officials who are already in virus denial, or answering to Trumpian voters who are in virus denial. Does anyone really think a rural, GOP heavy county, is going to take any kind of proactive measures unless it's just absolutely forced to once it's already too late?

              The only real difference in this response and Trump's is Holcomb clearly said the right things. He noted the seriousness of the virus. He told people Stage 5 is not the checkered flag on the virus. He noted the importance of masks. They talked about the risk of even family gatherings. But yet, when he had the option to put some action behind those words, he didn't.

              So... That might've been my last straw for supporting him. I don't know anything about Rainwater, but the fact he's getting huge Trumpian support from what is essentially former GOP voters pretty much tells me what I need to know there I imagine.

              My apologies for such a short post...
              That's exactly the reason I'm not voting for Holcomb.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gamble1 View Post

                There has been some studies on outdoor spread and the protest.

                https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/0...l-study-finds/

                I think people have to be careful of false equivalence here. A campaign is different than justice reform. One could argue convincingly that a political campaign can be successful without assembly. However justice reform on this magnitude does not happen without assembly.
                Biden's campaign can do without assembly because no one would attend anyway.

                Assembly is very, very important in this election that will happen one time. People protesting criminal justice have had decades to do that in the past and have more decades later.

                Besides, it probably doesn't matter. The article you post asserts that outdoor assembly may be no big deal. From what I have seen, Trump rallies have often been outdoors...so...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gamble1 View Post

                  There has been some studies on outdoor spread and the protest.



                  https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/0...l-study-finds/



                  I think people have to be careful of false equivalence here. A campaign is different than justice reform. One could argue convincingly that a political campaign can be successful without assembly. However justice reform on this magnitude does not happen without assembly.
                  You do realize that early in the summer the state of New York prohibited their tracer group from asking if a person attended a rally/march or protest right? I mean I made a post at the time saying how irresponsible it was. So I will take every single report about the outside spread of the virus in that state or any surrounding state with a giant grain of salt.

                  Also let us not pretend that whatever our personal political beliefs are are more important than another. To you maybe the rallies mean a lot and people should just go at their own risks, to other people whoever is the next President of the U.S. is equally if not more important and they choose to go at their own risk. False equivalency is a subjective term and you are using your own political view points to make them.

                  I'm saying what you and I both know to be true. The virus spreads airborn. Masks only mitigate the spread and do not stop the virus if you are wearing a mask and the person who has Covid is not. Social distancing can also help and in fact may be as important if not more so than masks.

                  I do not care what rally you are at, whether it's a Trump rally a Biden rally or a proud boys march or an Antifa/Black Bloc march if you are yelling and coughing on or near each other and you have Covid-19 you are spreading it and you are irresponsible.

                  That is all I am saying.


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Peck View Post

                    You do realize that early in the summer the state of New York prohibited their tracer group from asking if a person attended a rally/march or protest right?
                    I'm not sure that means what you think it means though...

                    Let's say someone is a beer-bellied, bearded, 4 WD truck owner that lives in a trailer with a confederate flag license plate. Should they ask him if he attended an anti-mask protest? Or a Trump rally? Or a KKK rally? See where I'm going with this?

                    Why would a contact tracer, out of the blue, ask a person if they attended a protest or rally? Wouldn't they just ask them to tell them where they've been in the past X days? Ask who they've interacted with. Ask how long they were there. Read it back to them and ask if they've forgotten anything/anywhere...

                    Doesn't asking them where they've been in the last X days pretty much cover asking them if they were attending a protest?

                    I thought about they could just ask everyone if they 'attended a protest', but while not singling anyone out, it could have implications about what they are doing with the information to be asking it in the first place. Especially when the question "Can you tell me where you've been in the last X days?" would cover it anyway.



                    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                    ------

                    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                    -John Wooden

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Peck View Post

                      You do realize that early in the summer the state of New York prohibited their tracer group from asking if a person attended a rally/march or protest right? I mean I made a post at the time saying how irresponsible it was. So I will take every single report about the outside spread of the virus in that state or any surrounding state with a giant grain of salt.


                      That is all I am saying.
                      The report I am quoting here was funded by the national science foundation. This is a federal funded grant that is conducted by independent academics. This isn't relying on a state institution or health department for the numbers other than the positive test for covid. Even so it involved 50 states so sure do not believe the eastern states numbers the results are still the same.

                      The conclusion is that if protest were a significant driver in virus spread it should correlate with where the protest were highest in turnout. That didn't happen. In fact the opposite happened which is counter intuitive and is why these are not equivalent. I fully expected the protest to be a driver but the data does not support that conclusion.

                      Some of Trumps rallies are also still being held indoors so again a false equivalence.

                      Trumps rallies outside probably have had a limited impact. They also are small in scale in comparison to the protest. My bet is that there is an order of magnitude difference between outside vs inside spread. Most of the early studies could not find community spread outside and even now 6 months later it is hard to find it.

                      Circling back though I think it is clear that there has been a big time reluctance to accept mitigation from one side. You may see it different but I think it has been shown. I think most have probably gotten it wrong (including me) about outside transmission and falsely accused people of spreading the virus when it probably hasn't been the major player for the infection rate.
                      Last edited by Gamble1; 10-15-2020, 12:01 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Gamble1 View Post

                        The report I am quoting here was funded by the national science foundation. This is a federal funded grant that is conducted by independent academics. This isn't relying on a state institution or health department for the numbers other than the positive test for covid. Even so it involved 50 states so sure do not believe the eastern states numbers the results are still the same.

                        The conclusion is that if protest were a significant driver in virus spread it should correlate with where the protest were highest in turnout. That didn't happen. In fact the opposite happened which is counter intuitive and is why these are not equivalent. I fully expected the protest to be a driver but the data does not support that conclusion.

                        Some of Trumps rallies are also still being held indoors so again a false equivalence.

                        Trumps rallies outside probably have had a limited impact. They also are small in scale in comparison to the protest. My bet is that there is an order of magnitude difference between outside vs inside spread. Most of the early studies could not find community spread outside and even now 6 months later it is hard to find it.

                        Circling back though I think it is clear that there has been a big time reluctance to accept mitigation from one side. You may see it different but I think it has been shown. I think most have probably gotten it wrong (including me) about outside transmission and falsely accused people of spreading the virus when it probably hasn't been the major player for the infection rate.
                        So you are basically saying that outdoor events are probably not much of an issue. I agree. It's funny that people were freaking about Florida opening up its beaches now in retrospect.

                        I think demographics (including, loosely, health conditions, race, age), population density, weather and indoor events are the main issues. A lot of this is related to infectious dose, which I think is the #1 driver. Yet I also believe that a small infectious dose could save someone later. I realize that doesn't fit the narrative.

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                        • Not surprising as they all had contact with the clown of Pence


                          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                          • Originally posted by Bball View Post
                            I'm just about decided I am not voting Holcomb this year. And him losing my vote is not going to be the same reason that he's losing a lot of votes to Rainwater. It's the opposite. I think he went from a good coronavirus response to a questionable one. Then sort of redeemed himself... but then has allowed Trumpism to dictate policy more than health and science. Today might be the last straw.

                            Let me explain-
                            The initial response was pretty solid I thought. Probably a little weak on pushing masks early as he could've, yet had science behind him.

                            But Trump was fanning the flames for governors to "open it up!!!"... and of course "Liberate!...".

                            The Indiana Back on Track plan seemed to jump thru the stages a little fast. Didn't promote mask wearing like it should've IMO either. But the first couple of stages seemed at least OK with the exception of allowing full church congregations as soon as it did. That could've waited and been implemented in stages with everything else.

                            And then a couple of times, he went ahead and jumped the gun and proclaimed we were doing so good we're just going to move the next stage up from after the weekend to before it. That, to me, sent the wrong signals. Plus, the stages, allegedly were created at the steps they were for a reason. Moving a stage up, for example, to allow larger Memorial Day gatherings didn't seem all that smart in the big picture. And, like I said, sent the wrong signal anyway.

                            My real issue with this part comes with June and July and the jump from stage 4 to 5. A jump from 250 person gatherings on July 3rd, to unlimited on July 4th. What??? I still believe the Back on Track plan was a race... a race to the race... Trying to carve out a way for the Indy Grand Prix, The BY400, and ultimately the Indy 500 to have fans. There would still be social distancing guidelines via the CDC to figure out, but the state itself wasn't going to be the one stopping them. Also, this would've allowed fairs and summer festivals a window too.

                            Everyone who wasn't listening to Trump, knew this second wave was likely coming though. That summer window, if it came at all, would not be the end of this.

                            The governor's plan effectively sent the signal that Stage 5 was the "All Clear" (or to steal his phrase from today "The checkered flag (on the pandemic)".

                            But... we never got to Stage 5. We still haven't, truth be told.

                            Instead, we went to a modified Stage 4.5. And that was a LOT more like what Stage 5 should've been anyway. Had it been structured that way to begin with, nobody would've seen it as the checkered flag on the pandemic.
                            Then came the mask mandate.
                            Then the AG stole some of Holcomb's thunder by declaring it unenforceable. I can't blame Holcomb for that. And at this point into things, Holcomb was doing the right things again for the most part.

                            But Trump continued his onslaught denying the virus, or the seriousness of it. Making masks a political issue. Making taking the virus seriously a political issue. And still pressuring governors to "open up".

                            Eventually, Holcomb announced he was taking us to Stage 5. Our final stage. What many saw as the all clear stage due to the initial info around the Back on Track Plan. But THIS Stage 5 wasn't THAT Stage 5.

                            It was more optics and politics than truly moving to a less restrictive phase. Crowd limits remained. Yes, there was still a way to hold larger crowds, if you had a plan your local health dept would sign off on.

                            Thru all of this the door remained open to hold the Indy 500... with fans... a LOT of fans. That was, IMHO, stupid.

                            This idea of the state allowing large gatherings if the local health dept would sign off on it was a part of that (still is) and is also stupid. There's too much local pressure, virus denial, and Trumpism to trust rural counties to do the right thing if presented with that option.

                            I didn't and don't like that....

                            And then today, with things going the wrong way... He more or less announced we'll stay in Stage 5... the mask mandate will remain. I think the optics of stepping back to 4.5 or even 4 would've served more good. Especially when you consider the things he DID say about how things were going the wrong direction. And yet there is a change now...

                            He tossed the hot potato back to the counties to be the ones to take mitigation actions. They have recommendations, based on where your county color code puts you, but even with red, there's only a "state health dept CAN implement..." restrictions rule. Not a "WILL implement restrictions".

                            This, to me, is a nod to Trump. A Trumpist style reaction. He didn't do the more prudent thing because he's trying to stem the bleeding of votes to Rainwater. Therefore, he put the pandemic mitigation response, at a time when the pandemic is going the wrong way, in the hands of local county officials. The same local county officials who are already in virus denial, or answering to Trumpian voters who are in virus denial. Does anyone really think a rural, GOP heavy county, is going to take any kind of proactive measures unless it's just absolutely forced to once it's already too late?

                            The only real difference in this response and Trump's is Holcomb clearly said the right things. He noted the seriousness of the virus. He told people Stage 5 is not the checkered flag on the virus. He noted the importance of masks. They talked about the risk of even family gatherings. But yet, when he had the option to put some action behind those words, he didn't.

                            So... That might've been my last straw for supporting him. I don't know anything about Rainwater, but the fact he's getting huge Trumpian support from what is essentially former GOP voters pretty much tells me what I need to know there I imagine.

                            My apologies for such a short post...
                            I actually think Holcomb has done a great job. He is a never Trumper governing a state that is very pro trump. He has shown pretty good leadership in this fight. He has approached COVID as an ongoing crisis management situation. He even explained it yesterday on his conference. They are tracking county by county and city by city any flare ups. They will then be sending out response teams to those areas to make sure the hospitals are adequately stocked. And those response teams will go directly in to nursing home facilities to help mitigate the spread.

                            As to what he said yesterday about going back on restrictions, he was 100% right. We need Hoosiers to alter they're everyday behavior, we need businesses to follow protocols.
                            I mean I am really unsure what you think he could really do differently. He had made some course corrections for the 5 stage plan as we learn more and more about the virus. That perfectly acceptable.

                            They had 12,000 at the colts game, and as far as I have read no real outbreaks from it. So yes if you plan properly why shouldn't you get exemptions. I see your point about local counties bending the rules on exemptions.

                            I guess I just don't understand the expectation. I mean we aren't getting rid of this virus anytime soon, situation calls for us to live with it and try to mitigate its damage. While also trying to keep the state's economy going. That means you have to put the reopening plan into some stress tests and adjust accordingly.

                            I listened to one statement about it all from the Libertarian candidate and he essentially doesn't have a position. "Let every Hoosier family decide for themselves" good lord. That would be calamity.

                            Lets be real, this State can not survive another lock down.
                            Last edited by graphic-er; 10-15-2020, 11:57 AM.
                            You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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                            • Pence is clean. Apparently Kamala's people are reckless?

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                              • I would think outside spread is more limited, but it depends on the situation and type of gathering. Has there been clarity on Memorial Day, July 4th, and Labor Day bumps? I'd think most of those events would've been outdoors.

                                Are you sitting beside someone on a boat on the lake for extended periods? Sitting together in a group on the porch? Shoulder to shoulder watching a fireworks display? Having a family reunion with hugging and handshakes and dropping your guard? Packed like sardines on a dancefloor at a wedding? Packed like sardines watching a band at a concert? Standing in a long line with your ticket to get in to an event? Standing in line at the restroom of a well-attended event?
                                Are people wearing masks, respecting social distancing guidelines, and respecting your space?
                                How does the temperature and weather factor in? High humidity and hot versus low humidity and cool? Light rain versus just cloudy and no sun? Night versus day?

                                I'd say there's more margin for error outside, but if people go into virus-denial mode (or just let their guard down and forget about it), then you could be in trouble. ...But that doesn't mean it's not a problem.
                                Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                                ------

                                "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                                -John Wooden

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