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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

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There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

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Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

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  • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

    Originally posted by Since86 View Post
    I think this whole "bench players leave and suddenly get good" argument has become more of projection than what actually happened.
    Maybe it's more of a "good players come here to be an important piece off the bench and then grossly under-perform".

    Comment


    • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

      I don't think the players that left necessarily got better - but I do feel that they were put in a better position to succeed. Obviously Green needs to play more up-tempo in order to play well. Obviously DJ needed to play in a pick and roll type of offense where he could create/handle the ball in order to play well. I feel the jury was out on these guys BEFORE we signed them. But instead of being placed within situations that catered to their skill set - Vogel tried to make them play as post feeders/spot up shooters - and that's just not either of their game.

      Tyler was Tyler for the most part in Toronto, and Plumlee, was just in a numbers jam as a rookie. Should he have played more, we honestly don't know - but he definitely looks like the type of big we could use right now. Young and OJ are about out of the league, and Pendy changed his name and got himself a ring.

      I don't know if the blame should be on the coaching staff or on the F.O for signing players that did not fully fit the system - but it's obvious (at least in the case of DJ and Green) that those guys were put into a system that didn't cater to their skills.

      Comment


      • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

        Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
        Augustin busted in a mere 10 games in Toronto before getting cut to facilitate the Rudy Gay trade. Hardly a large sample size. In his full seasons with teams, he was generally pretty good in Charlotte, was of course good with the Bulls, yet of course sucked as a Pacer. I'm going to put far more weight of several Charlotte seasons and 61 games in Chicago than I am 10 games in Toronto.
        The guy that surprised me with his struggles the most is DJ. He's a good ball handler, pretty good shooter, and was more of a true PG than we've had in a long time. He didn't need to play uptempo (just see his game in Chicago) he just needed the ball in his hands to make things happen .Green I can understand due to a style mismatch. But I thought FOR SURE DJ was going to be killer in a Pacer Uni just because of the skills (3 pt shooting, passing) that he brought to the table.

        Comment


        • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

          Originally posted by PacerDude View Post
          Maybe it's more of a "good players come here to be an important piece off the bench and then grossly under-perform".
          And I'm still trying to figure out how that falls on the coaches shoulders. How is that not the responsibility of players?
          Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

          Comment


          • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

            The problem with the whole Augustin thing is that he was playing his way out of the league before we offered him that one year. His resurgence in Chicago wasn't just recovering from one single, terrible year. He was trending downward in Charlotte of all places previous to coming here.

            Comment


            • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

              Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
              That's six players who either had some of the worst seasons of their careers here, or who barely got a chance to touch the court. Tyler definitely played better here than in Toronto, and CJ Watson was one of the better point guards in the league this season. Nevertheless, I see far more examples of bad bench production than I do success stories. Collectively, there just seems to be a pattern of bench talent not being able to produce here, particularly on the offensive end of the court. Don't care about OJ, Ben Hansbrough, or Pendergraph since those guys are bottom feeder players wherever they play.
              I see a pattern of players being only able to fit a certain role, and their inability to execute what is asked of them. I'm still trying to figure out how professional basketball players not being able to defend, or make good decisions (like ET) falls on the coaches shoulders.

              If Green can only play in a free moving style, where he's given the latitude to force bad shots early in the clock, then how is it a coaches fault when he can't play a more controlled, possession style of game?
              Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

              Comment


              • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                It's on the FO more than the coaching staff IMO. It's the F.O job to do their due diligence and know if/how a player can fit into a coaching scheme/system.

                Comment


                • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                  Originally posted by TinManJoshua View Post
                  The problem with the whole Augustin thing is that he was playing his way out of the league before we offered him that one year. His resurgence in Chicago wasn't just recovering from one single, terrible year. He was trending downward in Charlotte of all places previous to coming here.
                  No way. DJ avg 11 and 6 on CHA the year before coming to the Pacers (although he shot poorly) and 14 and 6 in 10/11. Those aren't killer All Star stats, but they aren't AJ Price playing yourself out of the league numbers either.

                  Also, that CHA team had zero talent.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                    I think it's on the players, more than the FO. It's not like they were asked to carry a role they couldn't perform because they didn't have the skill sets. They were asked to perform smaller roles, rather than larger ones. If a player can't manage a smaller role, for whatever reason, then why is that the coaching staffs fault?

                    If Evan can't keep his man in front of him, or can't make good decisions when he has the ball in his hands, then why should he forced fed minutues? Why would his lack of production, as a result of HIS shortcomings, be a criticism on the coach? There's only so much a coach can do. These are professional basketball players. You should be able to put them in a smaller role than they're used too, without their basketball wheels falling completely off.
                    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                      Originally posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
                      No way. DJ avg 11 and 6 on CHA the year before coming to the Pacers (although he shot poorly) and 14 and 6 in 10/11. Those aren't killer All Star stats, but they aren't AJ Price playing yourself out of the league numbers either.

                      Also, that CHA team had zero talent.
                      There's a reason why DJ signed with the Pacers for a 1yr $3.5M deal, and it wasn't because people were busting down his door for his services.
                      Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                        Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                        And I'm still trying to figure out how that falls on the coaches shoulders. How is that not the responsibility of players?
                        Why not both ?? They both need to adapt to each other. Maybe they're being too knee-jerk about the bench's performance (or lack of) early and don't learn to trust them later in the season. Using Pop as an example - he shuffles things around during the season, gives starters rest, puts guys in a position to perform and gain confidence.

                        And no - that's not an indictment on Vogel - I'm pretty sure that was something that Pop learned over the course of his career and working with different players. And it kind of help to have had Robinson, Duncan, Parker, etc ......... But I digress .........

                        Continuity helps too. Diaw - 2 yrs. Mills - 3 yrs. Manu - Forever. Moving things around during the regular season sets a nice mindset for the playoffs.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                          Originally posted by PacerDude View Post
                          Why not both ?? They both need to adapt to each other. Maybe they're being too knee-jerk about the bench's performance (or lack of) early and don't learn to trust them later in the season. Using Pop as an example - he shuffles things around during the season, gives starters rest, puts guys in a position to perform and gain confidence.

                          DJ played in 76 games last year.
                          Green played in 60 games, with an average of 18mpg.
                          Scola played in all 82 games.
                          Evan was force fed minutues until the playoffs, when they couldn't risk the gamble anymore.

                          How is any of those "knee jerk?"


                          Copeland is the only player listed so far, that I'd agree with you.
                          Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                            Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                            I see a pattern of players being only able to fit a certain role, and their inability to execute what is asked of them. I'm still trying to figure out how professional basketball players not being able to defend, or make good decisions (like ET) falls on the coaches shoulders.

                            If Green can only play in a free moving style, where he's given the latitude to force bad shots early in the clock, then how is it a coaches fault when he can't play a more controlled, possession style of game?
                            Each player's shortcomings can be explained away individually. But collectively, they paint a picture of a team that gets the lowest bench return of any elite team in the last couple of seasons. Augistin, Green, Turner, Scola......that is some solid bench talent, but collectively they massively underperformed. The best coaches in the league utilize their bench players strengths as opposed to driving to fit a square peg into a round hole. You can say that they are professional basketball players and therefore should be able to do anything, but there is a reason they are bench players. They aren't perfect and have strengths and weaknesses. Our team has generally failed to get the strengths out of the bench. Then you have guys like Plumlee and Copeland who barely got a chance. Overall, it's very hard to absolve a coach of some blame for such poor bench results. I don't view it as an either/or thing. Clearly the players deserve some blame, but I didn't see much creativity from the coaching staff.

                            Who exactly are the bench players out there who could succeed in this system? Walsh and Bird delivered some decent talent to Vogel over the past couple of years, yet the results haven't been good. So who out there could fit into a system that is obviously rigid and not conducive to bench success?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                              Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                              There's a reason why DJ signed with the Pacers for a 1yr $3.5M deal, and it wasn't because people were busting down his door for his services.
                              CHA originally extended a qualifying RFA offer of $4.385 the first day they were able to do so. He was originally going to be traded to the Pacers (rumor) but eventually asked CHA to rescind the offer so he could become an UFA. He signed with the Pacers the next day.

                              He already knew he was coming to play here, and took the contract that he was offered. We don't know how much he could have commanded, but he knew he would have to take a smaller contract to come here (this was the summer we re-signed Hill, Roy, and signed Green and traded for Ian) He took less money to leave CHA and come to a team that seemed to be on the come-up in IND. No he's not a star like talent, but he's not the scrub that we saw score 5 ppg while he was here neither.

                              I'm not arguing that DJ is some great player, I'm arguing he was brought to a team and a system that didn't fit his strengths.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

                                Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                                Each player's shortcomings can be explained away individually. But collectively, they paint a picture of a team that gets the lowest bench return of any elite team in the last couple of seasons. Augistin, Green, Turner, Scola......that is some solid bench talent, but collectively they massively underperformed. The best coaches in the league utilize their bench players strengths as opposed to driving to fit a square peg into a round hole.
                                So start giving direct examples, of these round holes. You talked about Scola being a jumpshooter. True, but I'd argue that jump shooting WAS his strength. He shot 45.6% from 16ft to the 3pt line in 12-13. This season he shot 43.9% from there. The problem wasn't where he was getting his shots, the problem was that he was completely unpredictable. He'd go 5-6 in one game, and then 0-7 in another.

                                How about ET. What was he asked to do, that he couldn't do?
                                How about DJ?
                                How about Green?
                                I think they were given the correct roles. I think it was a square peg trying to be put in a square hole, and the peg just broke.



                                Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                                Who exactly are the bench players out there who could succeed in this system?
                                Tyler.
                                Sam Young.
                                Butler.
                                Ian.

                                What's kind of funny about this is, if Plumlee would have gotten Ian's minutes (besides how it would have been a lateral move at best) is that it would have been more evidence of how Frank didn't give bench players enough rope. If Copeland would have gotten Scola's minutues, it would have been more evidence of how it was knee-jerk. Some of your examples aren't anything about the actual players themselves, but rather a product of trying to find game minutes for your end of the bench.
                                Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                                Comment

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