Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

[Unclebuck]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

No one I know of thought we were getting a starting point guard when we traded for George Hill. Now you could argue that he isn't really starting point guard quality, but the fact is he has been the starting point guard on a team that has gotten to the ECF two straight years. That is worth a lot more than the average 15th first round pick.

[Kstat]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

I would argue that it was good value, and that neither team really lost. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. We certainly liked Leonard's potential too. We were high on Hill. Since the trade, both organizations have been near the top of the heap. Certainly, one claimed some gold, but it's not like the Pacers have been the Bucks since they traded for Hill.

I don't know that the Pacers really "lost" the trade because they got exactly what they expected from George Hill.

Did the Spurs get the better player? Yes, and it's not even close. I don't know that it really impacts how you look back in the deal, though. The Pacers had Paul George and I don't see how both he and Leonard were going to co-exist.

Leonard is one of the unlikeliest finals MVPs in the 45 years they've handed out the award. It isn't like this was a cant-miss prospect.

[Since86]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

If that's the best argument you can give, there's not much of a discussion here.

Maybe this will work better.

Nu-uh! I'm right, poo-poo head.

[TinManJoshua]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

Absolutely. They probably were going to move Hill anyway. Getting Leonard was just a bonus.

I would argue that it was good value, and that neither team really lost. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. We certainly liked Leonard's potential too. We were high on Hill. Since the trade, both organizations have been near the top of the heap. Certainly, one claimed some gold, but it's not like the Pacers have been the Bucks since they traded for Hill.

[khaos01207]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

I already told you comparing him now to his rookie year is pointless. He was barely an NBA player his rookie year.

He's not more in control, he's just more in tune to playing at an NBA speed. His feel for the game hasn't changed at all. He still freeLANCES way too often.

Lance's ideal role was in 2013 when he really wasn't part of the offense and he was asked to be a support starter, which he was brilliantly. He was a much better fit than Granger with the other 4 starters. Last season he played a similar role to start the year but it all went downhill when he got snubbed from the all star game and he spent the rest of the year trying to pad his stats and pissing everyone in the organization off.

Heh.

[Since86]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

Let's try this with a real life scenario.

Gus drives a 2014 Audi A6. Gus loses his job and can no longer afford payments. Gus trades in his Audi for a 2002 Audi. Who would argue Gus likes his 2002 Audi more than his 2014? Need more information you say? No you don't. Gus got rid of his 2014 and picked a 2002, so he automatically likes his 2002 better. Forget his payment troubles forced him into the decision, no, he just liked that 2002 more.

Could Gus like his 2002 better than his 2014? Sure! But you're gonna have to actually list reasons other than simply stating he made the switch so therefore he likes his 2002 better.

It's a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc (correlation does not prove causation).

[Kstat]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

They NEEDED a big defensive wing (Leonard) over another scoring guard (Hill). That's not the question (at least IMO). But what they also needed was salary cap relief due to the extensions of Parker, then Manu/Duncan coming up.

Absolutely. They probably were going to move Hill anyway. Getting Leonard was just a bonus.

[Kstat]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

There's absolutely no way of proving it.

If that's the best argument you can give, there's not much of a discussion here.

[Ace E.Anderson]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

point is taken but salary cap or no I am 100% certain the Spurs wanted Leonard over Hill. Leonard was the type of athletic wing defender they were missing.

They NEEDED a big defensive wing (Leonard) over another scoring guard (Hill). That's not the question (at least IMO). But what they also needed was salary cap relief due to the extensions of Parker, then Manu/Duncan coming up.

[Kstat]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

I don't know how you can't say he's not under way more control than his rookie year. To say that isn't remotely true is false. Pointing to assist/TO ratio is not a good indicator, because he's not been in a PG role. I"m not talking about assist/TO ratio --- I'm talking just being in control of himself --- reigned in, working within the offensive system. I don't see why he can't be groomed to push the ball, and initiate the offense and build from there.

I already told you comparing him now to his rookie year is pointless. He was barely an NBA player his rookie year.

He's not more in control, he's just more in tune to playing at an NBA speed. His feel for the game hasn't changed at all. He still freelances way too often.

Lance's ideal role was in 2013 when he really wasn't part of the offense and he was asked to be a support starter, which he was brilliantly. He was a much better fit than Granger with the other 4 starters. Last season he played a similar role to start the year but it all went downhill when he got snubbed from the all star game and he spent the rest of the year trying to pad his stats and pissing everyone in the organization off.

[Since86]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

point is taken but salary cap or no I am 100% certain the Spurs wanted Leonard over Hill. Leonard was the type of athletic wing defender they were missing.

There's absolutely no way of proving it. You cannot seperate the two issues. I could argue that they would rather have Hill over Leonard, if salaries didn't matter. My position is just as valid as yours. Trying to change what happened to an opinion, over fact, tells me you're more worried about being "right" than being factual.

[Ace E.Anderson]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

Yeah, and the guy becomes the MVP of the finals. I'll stick to my take on them liking his potential to become this sort player more than they liked what Hill brought to the table. They are a team that has made the right decision time after time after time. This is another example of that.

You certainly can stick to your take of them liking his potential, but why not at least acknowledge all of the reports regarding how it was a tough decision to be made? I think 86 was right in that the biggest reason why they looked to trade Hill was because they knew how much money it would cost to keep him. When you add the fact they were going to be able to add a bigger wing defender (which they lacked at the time) on a rookie contract, it helped make the decision even easier.

Potential not withstanding, Leonard was a small ball 4 in college. He had basically zero perimeter game, and it was only last year that he showed glimpses of being the shooter that he is (much credit goes to him for developing that shot). The Spurs nor any other team were thinking he would come in and be a "scorer". He's a very good player who has the perfect role for his skill set. But looking back on draft night, I don't think the Leonard we see today is the Leonard the Spurs thought they would get only because he's a completely different player than he was in college.

[Kid Minneapolis]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

That isn't even remotely true.

His A/TO is actually worse this year than it was last year, and that isn't taking into account his antics on and off the floor. He constantly killed what little flow the offense had by breaking plays and doing his own thing.

Comparing his numbers to his first couple of years when he barely even saw the floor isn't saying much.

Lance is a secondary ballhandler, ideally a third or a safety valve. The less he handles the ball the better he will look because he's very good at doing the little things but he's terrible at being a lead guard.

I don't know how you can't say he's not under way more control than his rookie year. To say that isn't remotely true is false. Pointing to assist/TO ratio is not a good indicator, because he's not been in a PG role. I"m not talking about assist/TO ratio --- I'm talking just being in control of himself --- reigned in, working within the offensive system. I don't see why he can't be groomed to push the ball, and initiate the offense and build from there.

[Kstat]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

In a perfect world, where teams don't have to worry about salary caps, your point would be rock solid. But too bad the NBA is a salary cap driven league, and the Spurs felt the need to cut salary. Had they had not felt that need, they might have never decided to make a trade in the first place.

It's nice to try and re-write history and change the chronological order of events 4 years after the fact, but some of us actually remember.

point is taken but salary cap or no I am 100% certain the Spurs wanted Leonard over Hill. Leonard was the type of athletic wing defender they were missing.

[TinManJoshua]

Re: Would we be a better team right now if we would have kept K. Leonard?

He's already been "reigned in" considerably, whether anyone wants to admit that or not. The difference between Lance from a control-perspective between rookie-Lance and this-year-Lance is ginormous.

The sad part of that is that "reigned-in" Lance still turns the ball over in P & R situations and in transition a quarter of the time.