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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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(OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

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  • (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/sp...partner=EXCITE

    By OSCAR ROBERTSON

    Published: February 15, 2004


    The question I am asked most frequently by youngsters who submit questions to my Web site is, "What can I do to increase my vertical leap?" It doesn't matter what age they are; everyone wants to dunk.

    (I agree, just look at the farce of a rookie game)

    I think this question captures in a nutshell the state of basketball today, and the influence of the N.B.A. on the game as it is played everywhere else.

    Advertisement


    Professional basketball has been trivialized and dumbed down to the level of a highlight reel. Marketing and entertainment rule the day rather than putting the best product on the floor.

    Basketball is not a vertical game. The game is won between the foul line and the basket, an area where so few players today choose to, or are able to, operate. Dunking is such a tiny part of the game. My answer to these youngsters is always the same: concentrate on mastering all the fundamentals and becoming a complete player. I'm sure that's not the answer they want to hear.

    N.B.A. basketball is mostly muscle and flash. Stylin' all the way to the hoop. Dunks and 3-pointers, with nothing in between. Shooting percentages continue to plummet. When people tell me that scores are lower today because defenses are better, I have to laugh. Once I resisted the idea of the N.B.A. permitting zone defenses. Anymore, what does it matter? Defenses can't guard anyone properly and offenses can't score. One guy freelances while the other four stand and watch. There's no movement, no creation of an open shot on the weakside, no positioning for an offensive rebound.

    I pity coaches at any level who believe in and want to teach fundamentals, when youngsters see players on TV with no fundamentals being paid huge sums of money. Why be concerned with traveling, double dribbling, palming or carrying the ball, or failing to box out under the hoop when there are no consequences in the N.B.A. for such behavior?

    Players today are bigger, faster, stronger and more agile. But many of them can't dribble, can't shoot from outside, can't create shots off the dribble, can't guard anyone and are lost without the ball. Or even with it.

    I can already hear the cries of protest: I'm "old school" and out of touch. You've got that right. Many of my colleagues and I who were fortunate to play during the golden age of the N.B.A. — the mid-60's to the early 70's — are saddened by what the game has become today. And it's not about the money. I believe an athlete should be able to earn whatever the market will bear. But I also believe he or she actually ought to earn the money by delivering true value in return, i.e., a level of play that advances rather than diminishes the game.

    And why has the game of professional basketball changed so radically? Other pro sports haven't. To become a position player in major league baseball, you still need most or all of these skills: hitting, hitting with power, speed, defense and a strong arm. In football, offensive and defensive strategies come and go, but the basic attributes required to play each position haven't changed all that much.

    Once upon a time in basketball, regardless of your position, you were expected to be able to dribble with either hand, master all the basic passes, play aggressive defense whether man or zone, at least be able to guard and contain an opponent to some degree, at least box out your opponent if not rebound, command at least three or four reliable shots from various distances, and execute basic offensive maneuvers like running routes without the ball, setting screens, running the pick-and-roll and creating a shot off the dribble.

    Most of today's so-called star N.B.A. players have fairly one-dimensional games. Why? Potential stars skilled in one or two areas of the game are identified at a very early age and coddled and wooed from middle school on up. Few coaches will require them to develop a complete game or warm the bench until they do. So they reach the N.B.A., often after only a year or two of college if at all, without more than a minimal concept of the overall game of basketball. The exceptions like Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony are a distinct minority.

    Thus, just as America imports cheap labor from other countries to do the jobs Americans don't want to do, the N.B.A. turns increasingly to foreign players who do have fundamental skills and an all-around approach to the game that fewer and fewer American players — even though they may be superior athletes — can be troubled to learn.

    The N.B.A. has made a conscious decision to function as a marketing and entertainment organization, and seems much more concerned with selling sneakers, jerseys, hats and highlight videos than with the product it puts on the floor. The league wants to extend its footprint worldwide, which is good, but only to the extent of creating individual heroes who can drive sales of licensed products in their countries, a shortsighted approach that does nothing to grow the overall level of play. Team play is no longer considered sexy. Individual showmanship is. But one player, no matter how gifted, does not build and sustain a championship franchise.

    I always thought that the game itself was the product and that team success took precedence over the achievements of individual stars. Such thinking today is passé. The N.B.A. has bet the farm on marketing those players it believes appeal to the hip-hop culture, which has the same relationship to true culture as N.B.A. basketball does to real basketball. Even if basketball people were allowed once again to influence the strategic direction of the N.B.A., it would take them years to reverse the damage.

    As we take a break for another All-Star weekend, which is basically a made-for-TV miniseries, the focus is more on artificial contests created especially for television — the only thing missing is a three-legged race — than on the teams on the court, and on getting certain individual players onto the floor rather than creating teams that match up well against each other.

    Now All-Star voting is in the hands of the fans, and extended worldwide via the Internet. Thus we have the spectacle of Yao Ming, already an international marketing icon if not quite yet a fully developed basketball player, starting at center for the West instead of Shaquille O'Neal. Personally, I think voting should be returned to the players. Even if we don't have marketing degrees.


    Oscar Robertson, a 12-time All-Star, is the author of "The Art of Basketball" (Oscar Robertson Media Ventures, 1998) and "The Big O: My Life, My Times, My Game" (Rodale Press, 2003).
    -----------------------

    The NBA says the game is for the fans, if so, then the fans should pick who they want to see. If the All Star game is for the players then they should pick who plays.

  • #2
    Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

    That's a good read. Nothing particularly new concerning the deterioration of skills in today's players and how that came out.

    I do sort of like the idea of putting the All-Star voting in the hands of the players but the NBA won't do that. It's a fan friendly/fan involvement thing and they won't cut that off.

    Maybe they should allow the players to do a vote and the highest vote getter in each conference who doesn't make the team by the standard means of selection (Fan vote, coach vote) gets to fill an "extra" spot on each team as a "players selection" or something.
    Mickael Pietrus Le site officiel

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

      Maybe they should reverse the voting process and have the fans pick the reserves. Have coaches pick the players.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

        It's funny reading him say no one can play team offense or play defense, and yet the Pacers to a good bit of both. Makes me feel good.

        He's right in that no one can shoot anymore though.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

          I know it's probably been beat to death elsewhere but the mid-range game is dying. It's nice to see some younger guys like Rip Hamilton make a living with it but not many guys make that their bread and butter anymore.
          Mickael Pietrus Le site officiel

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

            I agree with what he says. A perfect example is a comercial I heard on the radio the other day. They played highlights of Anthony from various radio broadcasts. The commercial rapped up with Dr. Jack saying Anthony and the NBA are on ESPN Radio. Not Anthony and the Nuggets, just Anthony and the NBA.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

              I know it's probably been beat to death elsewhere but the mid-range game is dying. It's nice to see some younger guys like Rip Hamilton make a living with it but not many guys make that their bread and butter anymore.
              That, I totally agree with. Sports Center has encouraged kids to learn how to dunk and to jack up 3s, but not how to drive and pulll up for the 8-10 foot jumper..... or even to spot up for the 15 footer.

              I think the Big O's points are very valid.

              As for the All-Star selections, I would allow the fans to pick 4 players, the players to pick 4 players and the coaches to pick 4 players..... with selections prioritzed/considered in that order. With the understanding that the coaches can start whomever they choose to start, and that every healthy player plays 12 minutes or more.

              The only real problems I see with the All-Star selections are that the fans select players who have been injured for most or even all of the half-season leading up to the game, and that sometimes choose to start players that are much less deserving than reserves voted in by the coaches.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

                I know it's probably been beat to death elsewhere but the mid-range game is dying. It's nice to see some younger guys like Rip Hamilton make a living with it but not many guys make that their bread and butter anymore.
                You know... It seems Ron Mercer tried to do that and some fans were ready to drive him out of town. I know he was streaky... and I also know he had issues with Isiah and an inconsistent role.

                I'm just not sure it 'pays' to have a midrange game mentality (tho IMHO it should).

                -Bball
                Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                ------

                "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                -John Wooden

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

                  Another guy who has a nice midrange game is Cheaney. I've gotten to see a bunch of him this year for obvious reasons and that's really all the offensive game he has. His range doesn't extend to the 3 pt line. I guess he's kinda gotten lost in the shuffle over the years until he went to Utah last year. When he's on, he's really fun to watch.
                  Mickael Pietrus Le site officiel

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

                    I agree with maybe 50% oif what he says in the article.

                    But I disagree 100% when he says the defense is not better than it used to be. That is simply not close to be true. Defenses are so much better. just watch a couple of minutes of the NBA from the 60's, 70's,80's"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

                      I agree with maybe 50% oif what he says in the article.

                      But I disagree 100% when he says the defense is not better than it used to be. That is simply not close to be true. Defenses are so much better. just watch a couple of minutes of the NBA from the 60's, 70's,80's"
                      I don't disagree: The pace was faster, fouls were called tighter, and some of the rules were different; but I'm not going to make the statement that Russell's Celtics and Reed's Knicks didn't play good team defense in the context of that era. Maybe not as good as teams play today, but all of today's players would foul out in the first quarter using those rules/ officials.
                      Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                      Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                      Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                      Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                      And life itself, rushing over me
                      Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                      Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: (OSCAR ROBERTSON) N.B.A. Markets Style at Expense of Substance

                        O has been elevated in my estimation of him from this read. After watching the AS game last night I have to wonder how long it will be before players start coming out in masks and capes.

                        BTW, the league should be completely embarrased by the Freethrow shooting last night. That is completely telling as to the level of incompetency out there.

                        I bought Billy Keller's video on shooting the ball. He goes into great detail about how to catch the ball and square up for the shot. Perhaps too much detail as it makes for a slow pace for all but the most die-hard learning fanatics. Haven't made it past that point yet...noooo I'm not trying a comeback, it's for Geezerette and Geezer Jr.

                        I would very much like to see local colleges and uni's start recruiting primarily Indiana kids again, I think you'd see the quality of play increase...especially as most would remain in school for the full 4 years IMO. What I'm trying to say is to stop recruiting the flash and dash and go back to recruiting entire teams of pure players rather than the Sportscenter street-ballers.
                        Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

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