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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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NBA negotiations in a handy chart

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  • #1

    NBA negotiations in a handy chart

    Keeping track of the lockout negotiations can be quite confusing, but Henry Abbot just posted a reader-made graphical visualization of the current CBA offers. This is probably as clear as its going to get:



    Article here: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...-a-handy-chart

    NBA negotiations in a handy chart
    August, 25, 2011
    By Henry Abbott, ESPN.com

    The other day, on Bill Simmons' podcast, NBA Commissioner David Stern wondered why the players had scoffed at the owners' offer to cut player salaries just eight percent -- a smaller pay cut, he pointed out, than players in the very profitable NFL had taken.

    This eight percent story, which has since been repeated by an NBA spokesman, is somewhere between splitting hairs and a ruse. The chart above, made by TrueHoop reader David, helps to show that: Stern is talking about the first year of the league's "flex cap" offer, shown in turquoise. But the attractive first year of that offer comes is conditional on nine more years of fairly flat player income, even as league revenues are projected to climb with new national TV deals and an increasingly global audience. In other words, owners have offered a short period of salaries that are within shouting distance of the current deal, followed by many more years of below-market salaries.

    By nobody's projection has the league offered a deal that is an eight percent pay cut over the life of the deal.

    This is the kind of thing that you can see with your own eyes, thanks to this chart submitted by TrueHoop reader David. Based on educated guesses of the league's current revenues, assuming four percent annual growth over the next decade, and taking the NBA's word about how much money they're currently losing, he created the chart above based on media reports of the various offers. He cautions it is only as precise as the information that has been reported. Here's what matters:

    The blue line
    That's where the action is. The union has long built a case, and Malcolm Gladwell has their backs, that profit and loss is not the final analysis -- both because that analysis includes some costs related to team purchases, and because many of the benefits of team ownership are non-economic. But for the purposes of these talks, and this chart, I think we can safely assume that the NBA owners are not going to agree to a deal that projects league-wide losses. They want a deal that projects a league in the money, and this is that line.

    The best the union could do, I suspect, is to negotiate a deal that is precisely on that line -- or a line like it, created with the union's better financial insight -- and even that may be too hopeful. Owners want profits. And that's not weird. It's the way of business. If there aren't profits for owners, in pretty much any business, well, the hard reality is that the owner can and maybe should simply shut the doors and walk away. As employees, you want all the money you can get, but clearly not so much that you topple the entire enterprise.

    The pink line
    Make a note of this: The existing deal is the one that does the very best for players. Which matters when you look at ...

    The red line
    David Stern has said the union does not want to negotiate, and he's talking about lately. But worth noting is that the players opened talks with a giveback, and have not made one significant ask of their own. This is not a give and take. This is a give. The only question has been gift size. Not the worst people to negotiate with.

    The yellow line
    That was a while ago now, but remember it came in contrast to the status quo, or the pink line. So the league opened negotiations saying, basically, we'll keep it just like it is, only we'll take an incredibly huge chunk of your money every single year.

    The turquoise line
    Two important things have happened to date: The players have opened with a giveback, and the owners have made an offer that is, at least temporarily, right up there in "let's make a deal" territory by that all-important blue line. Even though we have not yet reached the zero hour of negotiations, when the real offers will come out, we have already had some signs that the mood is to negotiate.

    A final story of this chart: It's fairly clear what a compromise will look like, and both sides likely know it. It will be, almost certainly, somewhere near that blue line, which happens to be just about in the middle of all the various offers. It's noteworthy that neither side has yet made an offer all that close, which makes me think the good offers are yet to come.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

    Notes: this is just regarding the negotiation of the players' share of revenue. Issues such as hard/soft cap and guaranteed contracts don't come into it yet. But the revenue split is indeed a major bone of contention, and is perhaps the biggest one. Resolve this and they're halfway through the negotiations.

    It is interesting how the current offers are bracketing the blue line (i.e. breakeven point for the NBA according to their numbers). So I think Abbott might be right that both sides will eventually settle on the neighborhood of the blue line as a compromise point.

    Also interesting that the owners want a 10 year deal (compared to 5 for previous CBAs). Pretty obvious that they want to lock in a favorable CBA before the revenue from new TV deals kick in. Likewise, players want a shorter CBA for the same reason.

    The gap between both sides remain large though, and both sides seem fairly entrenched with their initial offers. Is it for posturing's sake or is it for real? No telling as yet how long it would take for them to come to an agreement.

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    • #3
      Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

      I said this in another thread.
      2 billion dollars is still 2 billion dollars. It's at most an 8 percent paycut. Just because the players aren't given raises in proportion to some projected growth doesn't mean they're taking anything more then an 8 % paycut, not 40% as the union has claimed. What the league is trying to do is to keep from cutting the players pay to an unacceptable point now in order to become immediately profitable and let future attrition and growth cover the rest of the gap. Otherwise they'd ask for salary reductions to the point of $340 mil now and give them raises from that point in proportion with growth. I think this was a very fair offer and way of dealing with league losses and a major step up from the first league proposal.
      I'll bet not one person on PD could go to their employer and tell them that if the business grows 10% per year then their salary must grow 10% per year or they consider it a paycut.
      I agree with you that they'll most likely settle with something along the blue line. Starting with $2 billion the first year and a much smaller increase scale then they currently have to the point of getting 2.2-2.5 billion by the end of the cba. Hopefully that will be enough for the league to profit because this projected growth in revenue isn't certain.
      I really only care in the structural changes that add to competitive balance such as the hard cap. I hope the league doesn't cave on that.
      Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

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      • #4
        Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

        I think you could reasonably expect that your payroll (and other expenses) could go up 10% (probably by more employees in most businesses) if you grew 10%, but it has to be sustainable.
        "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

          Originally posted by wintermute View Post
          In other words, owners have offered a short period of salaries that are within shouting distance of the current deal, followed by many more years of below-market salaries.
          Below-market salaries? Below what market? There's no pro basketball market that the NBA can compare compensation to... it's not like these guys are software developers or nurses...?

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

            Originally posted by bphil View Post
            Below-market salaries? Below what market? There's no pro basketball market that the NBA can compare compensation to... it's not like these guys are software developers or nurses...?
            If they were software developers they'd be outsourced to India already. Or maybe Russia.
            "Danny Granger is one of the top players in the league. To move Danny, you better get a lot back." - Larry Bird

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

              Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
              I said this in another thread.
              2 billion dollars is still 2 billion dollars. It's at most an 8 percent paycut. Just because the players aren't given raises in proportion to some projected growth doesn't mean they're taking anything more then an 8 % paycut, not 40% as the union has claimed.
              Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
              I'll bet not one person on PD could go to their employer and tell them that if the business grows 10% per year then their salary must grow 10% per year or they consider it a paycut.
              Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
              I really only care in the structural changes that add to competitive balance such as the hard cap. I hope the league doesn't cave on that.
              Just wanted to pull these bits out because I agree with them fully. In the players' favor are all the people who believe that workers are entitled to whatever they can get. However, with recent economic times even those same people aren't quite as sympathetic when they are trying to get even a Cost Of Living raise while NBA players are crying about not getting guaranteed raises that match a possible projected growth.
              BillS

              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

                Originally posted by bphil View Post
                Below-market salaries? Below what market? There's no pro basketball market that the NBA can compare compensation to... it's not like these guys are software developers or nurses...?
                Actually, they can compare to any professional basketball league on the planet in after tax and monetary exchange rate terms, combining actual salaries, endorsement income potential, etc., and then combine that with the relative standards of living of the various countries, as well as the distance the players would be from their families and circle of friends.

                After they do that, you are right, though. Even if the owners get the players to eventually accept one of their proposals as is, that would still be preferable for many, if not most, players compared to any other professional basketball league on the planet in my opinion.

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                • #9
                  Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

                  Originally posted by cgg View Post
                  I think you could reasonably expect that your payroll (and other expenses) could go up 10% (probably by more employees in most businesses) if you grew 10%, but it has to be sustainable.
                  As you said, it would normally increase primarily by adding employees. But we're talking about player compensation, and the number of players is unlikely to increase. (I don't see the league expanding any time soon.) So, the 10% increase would be - essentially - in the form of raises... and/or by paying incoming players more than outgoing players.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

                    Originally posted by bphil View Post
                    Below-market salaries? Below what market? There's no pro basketball market that the NBA can compare compensation to... it's not like these guys are software developers or nurses...?
                    You could compare the NBA to other leagues around the world, but I agree with your sentiment. When I read that statement, I got the impression that he was claiming that the blue line represents market salary. Anything below that would be below market.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: NBA negotiations in a handy chart

                      What does this have to do with Lance? *green font*

                      Comment

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