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Pacers clear the air

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  • #1

    Pacers clear the air

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18700

    Maybe you've heard this one before:

    A practically unknown NBA assistant coach from New Jesrsey watches his boss get fired only to replace him on an interim basis. Despite being in his mid 30s, he immediately commands the players' respect, sparks a winning streak and briefly reverses the fortunes of a franchise.

    "He's obviously a trailblazer from the standpoint of having little NBA experience and stepping in and hitting a home run with the situation," Wildwood Crest, NJ native Frank Vogel said of former Nets head coach Lawrence Frank in an interview with Indianapolis Star writer Mike Wells.

    Like Vogel, Frank grew up in the Garden State, earned a minor role under a famous coach (Vogel worked for Rick Pitino at Kentucky while Frank was the student manager under Bobby Knight at Indiana) and became an NBA assistant. And like Frank, who reeled off 13 consecutive wins after replacing Byron Scott as the Nets head coach in 2004, Vogel's Indiana Pacers have won four consecutive games since he took over for Jim O'Brien.

    The secret to Vogel's early success has been two-fold: he opened up the offense, but more importantly, he opened up the lines of communication—something many players felt had been closed by O'Brien.

    Firstly, Vogel is slowly weaning a mediocre 3-point shooting team (the Pacers rank 13th in the NBA with a 36.3% clip) off of the long ball. Indiana averages 22.5 3-point attempts per game, which is the fourth most in the NBA. However, the Pacers have averaged only 19.5 in the four games since Vogel has taken the helm, and that figure only promises to drop.

    "We're more of a patient team," Pacers center Roy Hibbert told HOOPSWORLD. "We're dissecting defenses. We'll take an open three, but more so, we try to score in the paint and the foul line rather than jacking up a lot of threes."

    The Pacers are still willing to shoot from the outside (Mike Dunleavy made five of six 3-pointers in Sunday's win over the Nets), but the players don't feel that should be the focus of the offense. In fact, leading scorer Danny Granger thinks O'Brien's system was suited to the team Indiana was two years ago, rather than this season.

    "The offense that we were running was [built for] shooters," Granger told HOOPSWORLD. "When we had Troy Murphy, we had another big that could stretch the floor. This offense, we have a different crop of talent. We've got two really good low post scorers and a good offensive rebounder. We're trying to work inside out now rather than outside in.

    "We made some adjustments offensively," Granger continued. "Throughout the season we struggled mightily on offense. We made some adjustments to simplify our offense. It's just a totally different approach than we've taken in the past, especially with a lot of the young guys that we have."

    The most crucial "young guy" Granger was referring to is probably point guard Darren Collison, who appeared to have regressed under O'Brien. The UCLA product had a monster rookie season for the Hornets in 2009-2010, shooting 40% from 3-point range and pushing his assist rate to 28.8 (26th in the NBA). That number fell to 24.6 this season as Collison fumbled through O'Brien's motion offense.

    But now that Vogel has ascended to head coach, the Pacers offense has moved away from rigid motion sets. Now the team has adopted a pick-and-roll offense that promotes creativity.

    "Darren comes from a system where he really thrived," Granger said. "He's really good in pick-and-roll situations. Previously we took him out of situations with the kind of random movement we had in our sets. Now Darren has the ball in his hands a lot more to make plays for us."

    "Our pick-and-roll game has gotten a lot better," Hibbert agreed. "We're using it a lot more and players are able to do what they're naturally able to do. We're not holding them up… It's different. It's been a moving system for the past two years, and I want to embrace [the pick and roll] and try and make the most of it."

    The other major change has been the atmosphere in the locker room.

    O'Brien served under Pitino at Kentucky and with the Celtics before becoming the head coach in Boston, Philadelphia and Indianapolis. He has a Jesuit background that promoted discipline and he is the son-in-law of former Blazers coach Jack Ramsay. O'Brien, for lack of a better description, is old school.

    That isn't a knock against him. Some teams need a swift kick in the rear, which is why O'Brien will probably coach again on some level.

    However, the Pacers players wanted a coach they can talk to, and the 37-year-old Vogel is eager to listen.

    "It's a positive atmosphere," Hibbert said. "Everybody feels they can say what they have to say. I think it's a positive atmosphere and it's a good change.

    "You really couldn't say too much before," he continued. "It was a different system under a different coach."

    It wasn't long ago that the Pacers had about as negative of an environment as a team can have. In the course of about two months their record went from 9-7 to 17-27.

    A stretch like that is reserved for the truly awful, which is what frustrated Granger. He had played on bad teams before, but this year—with the addition of Collison and first-rounder Paul George—felt like it should be different.

    "We just went through that one bad stretch that cost us six or seven in a row," Granger said. "We just moved back to the eighth spot in the playoffs, so we're right in the mix of things. We're fighting for that sixth, seventh or eighth seed. I think we're only four games out of the sixth and that's pretty good."

    Frank took over the 2003-2004 Nets when they were just 21-20 and pushed them to a final record of 47-35 and the second seed in the Eastern Conference playoffs. Upon reaching the second round, they came within a game of beating the eventual champion Detroit Pistons.

    It would be a small miracle for Vogel to achieve as much with the Pacers this season, but at the very least, he'll be a candidate to be this team's coach for the long haul.

    (BTW, Frank Vogel should avoid looking at the way Lawrence Frank ended his career: Losing his job after an 0-16 start)
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Pacers clear the air

    Yeah, I posted this in the "Why do the players feel like they have more freedom" thread (http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=61290), but I wondered if it needed a thread of it's own. Thanks for throwing up here. The things our players are saying about the differences between JOB and Coach V continue to be very interesting...
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

    "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

    "Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

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    • #3
      Re: Pacers clear the air

      The truth is finally pouring out.

      Of course, it has been obvious for some time now.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Pacers clear the air

        "We're more of a patient team," Pacers center Roy Hibbert told HOOPSWORLD. "We're dissecting defenses. We'll take an open three, but more so, we try to score in the paint and the foul line rather than jacking up a lot of threes."
        I remember how many times I was told by "the clown" supporters that it was disrespectful and wrong to say that the team was "jacking up threes" and there was a logic to his madness, but guess what? ROY HIBBERT AGREES WITH ME.......
        @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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        • #5
          Re: Pacers clear the air

          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
          I remember how many times I was told by "the clown" supporters that it was disrespectful and wrong to say that the team was "jacking up threes" and there was a logic to his madness, but guess what? ROY HIBBERT AGREES WITH ME.......


          "I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about." - Peter Griffin

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          • #6
            Re: Pacers clear the air

            I love Frank Vogel.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Pacers clear the air

              Originally posted by gummy View Post
              Thanks for throwing up here.
              Oh, the difference one more word could have made.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Pacers clear the air

                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                I remember how many times I was told by "the clown" supporters that it was disrespectful and wrong to say that the team was "jacking up threes" and there was a logic to his madness, but guess what? ROY HIBBERT AGREES WITH ME.......
                Pacers took too many threes, I never said anything different. Oh I might have pointed out that the Pacers don't take more than the magic, but just because I use that to show the pacers don't really take that many, doesn't mean that I agreed with how many we were taking

                And if you can find a post where I ever said I agree with the number of threes we take, i'll give you a cool $20

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Pacers clear the air

                  A lot of us talk about the team being in a honeymoon stage right now, and I'd probably agree that they really are feeling good based on the coaching change and the open communication. That is not something to undersell, IMO. The players feeling comfortable and confident in themselves and with the coach is a BIG deal.

                  But, what really sticks out to me is that the changes Vogel has implemented are tangible things like pick-and-rolls, working outside-in, getting to the foul line. These are things we can see in the games, and the players are talking about them. Obviously, they'll hit a bump in the road and the reaction will be more important that any of this stuff -- but it's very encouraging to me that the improvement has come from actual changes that we can see, and not just "good vibrations" in the locker room.
                  It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Pacers clear the air

                    Hibbert says they were jacking up a lot of threes, which no one in their right mind could disagree with.

                    The common sound bite hyperbole here was that the offense did nothing but jack up threes, which was false. I only chimed in when the hyperbole hit the fan.

                    I'm glad they are taking fewer threes. Since I have been out of the country I have been unable to watch, but what I hope to see in future situations where they are behind or starting to fall behind they will not simply try to use the 3 as the weapon to get them back into the game. That was what frustrated me the most - not that it was used, but that at certain points it was used to excess when there was plenty of time to get a high-percentage 2-points out of the possession.
                    BillS

                    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                    • #11
                      Re: Pacers clear the air

                      I love the new system for the Pacers because...
                      1) It is a lot more fun to watch.
                      2) Collison is obviously a pick-and-roll guy and he thrives off of it. Why would we use anything different when the guy handling the ball needs that? Never got that.
                      3) The guys love to play the game now. There is excitement now. Even if we lose tonight at Miami I still think it willl be a great game and we won't go on a losing streak cause the guys will pick eachother right back up. Honestly, I think it will be a great, fun game to watch and I think we will give Miami a run for their money.
                      4) JOB isn't in it lol

                      Idk how many people would agree with me but I'm ready to give Frank the job. Look at who he has been under...Rick Pitino and especially Bob Knight. Bob Knight is one of the greatest coaches ever IMO just had a bad attitude and Frank has watched how Knight handled games and coached. Sue me but if there is a guy who has learned from Pitino and Knight give him the job.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Pacers clear the air

                        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                        Pacers took too many threes, I never said anything different. Oh I might have pointed out that the Pacers don't take more than the magic, but just because I use that to show the pacers don't really take that many, doesn't mean that I agreed with how many we were taking

                        And if you can find a post where I ever said I agree with the number of threes we take, i'll give you a cool $20

                        I must say you have taken a beating this season. Overall, you have handled it quite well I might add. Unlike some on this board, I knew there were numerous things you didn't like about Jimmy and his coaching. One can respect another for standing up for Jimmy, even if their stand at times was misguided. I just don't know why this carp is even continuing to be discussed now that Jimmy is GONE. Everyone should just move on and just be happy Jimmy and his asinine/idiotic style ball is gone! Let's bask in the change and just move forward with HAPPINESS.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Pacers clear the air

                          Originally posted by k_lewis93 View Post
                          I love the new system for the Pacers because...
                          1) It is a lot more fun to watch.
                          2) Collison is obviously a pick-and-roll guy and he thrives off of it. Why would we use anything different when the guy handling the ball needs that? Never got that.
                          3) The guys love to play the game now. There is excitement now. Even if we lose tonight at Miami I still think it willl be a great game and we won't go on a losing streak cause the guys will pick eachother right back up. Honestly, I think it will be a great, fun game to watch and I think we will give Miami a run for their money.
                          4) JOB isn't in it lol

                          Idk how many people would agree with me but I'm ready to give Frank the job. Look at who he has been under...Rick Pitino and especially Bob Knight. Bob Knight is one of the greatest coaches ever IMO just had a bad attitude and Frank has watched how Knight handled games and coached. Sue me but if there is a guy who has learned from Pitino and Knight give him the job.
                          While I think Bob Knight was a very good coach, the article is comparing Frank Vogel with Lawrence Frank, and it was Lawrence Frank who spent time under Bobby Knight, not Frank Vogel. Vogel did work with Pitino for a long time, but he went straight from Pitino to O'Brien, I believe.

                          I'm beginning to lean towards Vogel deserving the job as well. He fits with our team very well, and it's obvious the guys have a great relationship with him. I still want to see how he handles a loss or a couple losses. If he gets these guys to the playoffs, I think the job is his.
                          It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Pacers clear the air

                            Originally posted by pizza guy View Post
                            While I think Bob Knight was a very good coach, the article is comparing Frank Vogel with Lawrence Frank, and it was Lawrence Frank who spent time under Bobby Knight, not Frank Vogel. Vogel did work with Pitino for a long time, but he went straight from Pitino to O'Brien, I believe.

                            I'm beginning to lean towards Vogel deserving the job as well. He fits with our team very well, and it's obvious the guys have a great relationship with him. I still want to see how he handles a loss or a couple losses. If he gets these guys to the playoffs, I think the job is his.
                            Oh that's my bad. I didn't read it clear enough. I thought he meant Frank had been under Bob Knight. Well even so I love what he is doing and I like younger coaches way better then older. They have a spark and are more understanding. I would also like to see how he does after a few losses but as of rightnow I think he should be a serious contender.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Pacers clear the air

                              Originally posted by BillS View Post
                              what I hope to see in future situations where they are behind or starting to fall behind they will not simply try to use the 3 as the weapon to get them back into the game. That was what frustrated me the most - not that it was used, but that at certain points it was used to excess when there was plenty of time to get a high-percentage 2-points out of the possession.
                              And that was IMO precisely why the Pacers would either get right back in the game (did happen, but very few times) or they would more often fall apart as they tried to shoot themselves back in. Pacers were terrible fighting off runs. best way to fight off a run is to get to the free throw line

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