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Today's version of the last three years article's

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  • #1

    Today's version of the last three years article's

    Why is it that the first thing that came to my mind when I read that they call the offense "quick" was when Bilbo Baggins called the ring his precious and Gandalf said "it's been called that before"?

    As to today's article, no offense to the writer, but honestly couldn't they have just copy and pasted this from almost any article from the last three years when the team is trying to figure out why they are in a losing streak? Every year it's the exact same d@mn thing. We aren't moving on offense, we don't pass the ball, we aren't cutting, blah, blah, blah.

    Sorry I could buy this in year one, even to an extent in year two but for God's sake most of these guys have played this before. Yes Collison is new, but that shouldn't matter as every single point guard for the past four years has been new, other than T.J. and since he is playing almost as much as Collison then should that even matter.

    Is it possible that maybe just maybe the offense is flawed?

    I mean are they purposley just forgetting to move? Are they refusing to move? Or is it that defenses have cut off the lanes and thus forcing people outside the route that the want to take and thus causing a chain reaction of everybody having to try and react to what everybody else is doing?

    They need to simplify this and give themselves a set of play that they can run when they need to. Yes they can still run the "quick" (btw Isaiah was a visionary obviously) on occasion, nothing wrong with shaking things up. But sometimes being unpredictable becomes predictable.

    Anyway here is today's puzzlement.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2010...se-stuck-place


    Written by
    Jeff Rabjohns Filed Under
    Sports

    The frustration is mounting for the Indiana Pacers.

    And it isn't just the losses. It's the loss of offense.

    It was clear watching the body language of leading scorer Danny Granger. After some of his teammates had showered and dressed following Wednesday's 104-90 road loss to the Washington Wizards, the Pacers' leading scorer was still in his uniform, sitting in a padded chair in front of his locker, his feet in an ice bucket.

    "We're not cutting with a purpose. We're not moving with a purpose, and then next thing you know, six seconds on the shot clock and we have to hoist up a shot," he said. "Too many of our possessions end that way, and we've got to figure it out or it's going to be a long season for us."

    Heading into today's game against revamped Washington (8-22), the Pacers (13-17) have lost seven of their past nine games. In those nine games, they've scored 90 points or fewer six times.

    The Pacers started 11-10 and in those 21 games, they scored 90 or fewer just three times.

    "We've got to move," shooting guard Brandon Rush said. "We're settling too much for running plays rather than running our quick stuff that we were earlier in the year. The whole thing is to keep everyone moving as one. Even when we dump in down to Roy (Hibbert), we have to keep moving."

    The Pacers' offense runs through the 7-2 Hibbert in the post and Granger on the wing.

    Hibbert, the Pacers' second-leading scorer at 13.5 points per game, has been held to single digits six times in December.

    Granger is averaging 21.1 points but has been far from consistent. This month, he has had six games of 15 or fewer points.

    "The way our offense works, it has to move as a unit. Everyone has really got to be in tune to what we're trying to accomplish on this possession or that possession, and right now we're not doing it. It's very frustrating," Granger said. "I've been in this offense for three years, and I've scored well in it over the past three or four years. This year is just straight not the same, and we've got to figure it out."

    When coach Jim O'Brien took over before the 2007-08 season, the team was in transition. With the acquisition of players such as Mike Dunleavy to join Granger on the wing and the more recent drafting of Hibbert, O'Brien's idea was to move from a team that ran half-court sets to one that ran a passing game.

    "We felt we had to invent something that would be difficult to guard, that would give our guys the best chance," O'Brien said. "It takes great conditioning. It takes an understanding that you've got to move, figure out where you're going to move and what you're doing in that movement.

    "You also have to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of your teammates, who to screen for, who to avoid, and your own strengths and weaknesses."

    The starting lineup the Pacers have used about half the season -- Darren Collison, Rush, Granger, Josh McRoberts and Hibbert -- is the second-youngest in the league, so youth is another factor.

    Collison also is in his first year with the team.

    Running their passing game, which the Pacers refer to as their "quick" offense, O'Brien said the team scores on 50 percent of its possessions. It was successful earlier in the year, leading to road wins over LeBron James and Miami and Kobe Bryant and the defending champion Lakers.

    "I'd prefer not to make any calls," O'Brien said of set plays. "I'd rather just run our passing game, but we have not shown the persistence to run and move and get into (it) on a regular basis, and we need to do that."


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

    Well, at least the players are acknowledging the lack of movement. Ironically Granger doesn't move well without the ball except for the alley-oop play from Hibbert.

    Maybe part of the confusion is where. Where should the players move?

    Originally posted by Peck View Post
    "We've got to move," shooting guard Brandon Rush said. "We're settling too much for running plays rather than running our quick stuff that we were earlier in the year. The whole thing is to keep everyone moving as one. Even when we dump in down to Roy (Hibbert), we have to keep moving."
    Especially when you dump it down to Roy, which is less and less every game.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

      Isn't this the first season JOB has said he doesn't want to make calls, if they get past the half court in 8 seconds he won't make a call, etc?

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

        An article earlier this year said before 3secs if I remember correctly. Definately not 8. Jim would never call a play, because the you have to get the ball over the time line in 8seconds, not 10, in the NBA.
        “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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        • #5
          Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

          This offense works with Allen Iverson or Paul Pierce. We have neither. In order to do what must be done you have to have a player who can move exceptionally - and draw a double team.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

            The quote I found most interesting was this:

            "We've got to move," shooting guard Brandon Rush said. "We're settling too much for running plays rather than running our quick stuff that we were earlier in the year. The whole thing is to keep everyone moving as one. Even when we dump in down to Roy (Hibbert), we have to keep moving."
            I can only conclude that either they mean something different by "running plays" than WE mean by it (because it is a huge majority opinion here that they need to run more), or perhaps - just perhaps - that the players buy into the system and really want to play that way but just can't get good at it.

            I really have to think about this one, and wish I was in a position to ask some follow-up questions.
            BillS

            A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
            Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

              Originally posted by BillS View Post
              The quote I found most interesting was this:



              I can only conclude that either they mean something different by "running plays" than WE mean by it (because it is a huge majority opinion here that they need to run more), or perhaps - just perhaps - that the players buy into the system and really want to play that way but just can't get good at it.

              I really have to think about this one, and wish I was in a position to ask some follow-up questions.
              Or maybe the players think the plays are crappy, and would rather run their own stuff.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                Originally posted by BillS View Post
                The quote I found most interesting was this:



                I can only conclude that either they mean something different by "running plays" than WE mean by it (because it is a huge majority opinion here that they need to run more), or perhaps - just perhaps - that the players buy into the system and really want to play that way but just can't get good at it.

                I really have to think about this one, and wish I was in a position to ask some follow-up questions.
                If they mean executing set plays, then the team apparently doesn't have very many set plays to choose from, or are not being instructed to execute a very wide variety of them. I believe that this is what Rush meant, at least.

                If, however, they mean actually running plays (meaning pushing the tempo faster than average by using a running game), then the focus needs to be shifted to passing plays instead, with, as Granger indicates, the players functioning as a single unit with an understanding of what their movement and passing actually is trying to accomplish.

                It is actually encouraging to see O'Brien recognizing that the players aren't doing well by simply freelancing and playing off of one another, and that they need to work on that. It is less encouraging to see that he would prefer to call even fewer plays, because structure is important to the success of most players on the team, particularly Hibbert, Rush, and to a lesser extent Granger, Ford, and Collison. The two guys that can effectively play the type of freelancing passing game that O'Brien refers to are Dunleavy and McRoberts, with the unplayed Price probably being the third due to his ability to see the court and make higher percentage decisions as an initiator of the offense overall.

                It is also interesting to see the term "quick" being used. I have thought that there has been an eerie resemblance to the "Quick" of Isiah Thomas ever since O'Brien came here.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                  the big difference this year and the previous years is the lack of the 'our defense sux' paragraph. there has been improvement.

                  running and doing a motion type offense is hard work at the NBA level. it looks like the players are having trouble making the commitment to do the work. if they are going to stand around all game, pacers are going to wear out TJ ford, as he is the only guy that can take his man off the dribble.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                    Originally posted by BillS View Post
                    The quote I found most interesting was this:



                    I can only conclude that either they mean something different by "running plays" than WE mean by it (because it is a huge majority opinion here that they need to run more), or perhaps - just perhaps - that the players buy into the system and really want to play that way but just can't get good at it.

                    I really have to think about this one, and wish I was in a position to ask some follow-up questions.
                    The article kind of explains itself.
                    Running their passing game, which the Pacers refer to as their "quick" offense, O'Brien said the team scores on 50 percent of its possessions. It was successful earlier in the year, leading to road wins over LeBron James and Miami and Kobe Bryant and the defending champion Lakers.
                    I don't think it means they need to run more or that they want to call more set plays. I think it means they want to go back to their passing offense they had in November.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                      The phrasing "running plays rather than running our quick stuff" suggests to me that "running" is a verb form, not an adjective. That's why I don't think he's talking about "plays characterized by running" - especially since we do very, very little of that. I think he is saying that, from the player perspective, they spend too much time trying to execute pre-determined plays.

                      I find no insinuation that he means they are trying to execute the WRONG plays, either. I'd have expected a wording closer too "we spend too much time running the plays we have".

                      Again, though, I'd really love to have had someone interested in clarity asking follow-up questions rather than articles that get sound bites and leave them open to interpretation.
                      BillS

                      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                        To me it doesn't matter. Even if Brandon pines for the freedom of running the "quick" offense more, it isn't working. By every single one of their own complaints it isn't working. For the exact same reason that it hasn't worked in the past.

                        Moderation is the key to almost anything. In other words if your only play is to run down the court and throw the ball to Shaq, who was almost unstopable back in the day, defenses would adjust. If your play was to give the ball to Jordan and let him go, defenses would adjust.

                        Teams are basically doing our own defense against us. They are packing the lanes and then extending the defense to up past the free throw line. This in effect cuts off the passing lanes and makes it easy to rotate and double. It is worse when Posey is in IMO because he does not move and thus his player just leaves him to free lance. Now when he hits 5 three's like he did vs. the Hornets then he burns them but at his % this season teams are not fearing him very often.

                        I wish they would just mix it up.


                        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                          Originally posted by Peck View Post
                          To me it doesn't matter. Even if Brandon pines for the freedom of running the "quick" offense more, it isn't working. By every single one of their own complaints it isn't working. For the exact same reason that it hasn't worked in the past.
                          I agree with this in terms of the effectiveness of the offense.

                          However, the thing that makes it interesting to me is essentially the attitude Brandon has. Many people expect that the players hate the offense because they can't run it and that they want something different. This implies (not proves, implies) that they actually like the offense when they can get it working, and are motivated to try to get it working rather than to give up on it.

                          Some well-placed follow-up questions would make this much clearer.
                          BillS

                          A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                          Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                            Originally posted by BillS View Post
                            I agree with this in terms of the effectiveness of the offense.

                            However, the thing that makes it interesting to me is essentially the attitude Brandon has. Many people expect that the players hate the offense because they can't run it and that they want something different. This implies (not proves, implies) that they actually like the offense when they can get it working, and are motivated to try to get it working rather than to give up on it.

                            Some well-placed follow-up questions would make this much clearer.
                            I think overall most players would prefer to play the offense the way Jim plays the offense. I can't go back in my life and think of many players who would prefer a more deliberate offensive scheme.

                            His offense I'm sure is fun to play, also when it works it can be fun to watch.

                            But I see your point and where you are going with this (O'Brien is not nearly as unpopular with his players as is percieved by the fans and some in the media) and your right, followup questions are the only way to answer that.


                            Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Today's version of the last three years article's

                              Originally posted by BillS View Post
                              I agree with this in terms of the effectiveness of the offense.

                              However, the thing that makes it interesting to me is essentially the attitude Brandon has. Many people expect that the players hate the offense because they can't run it and that they want something different. This implies (not proves, implies) that they actually like the offense when they can get it working, and are motivated to try to get it working rather than to give up on it.

                              Some well-placed follow-up questions would make this much clearer.
                              Brandon might answer on Twitter. He seems good about interacting with fans.

                              Comment

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