Coaching or players - why the improvement

[Naptown_Seth]

Shade asked this at the end of the Bucks game thread and it would be buried if left there.

Here's my friendly rant on it, no surprises but I do have numbers to back it.

But is that improvement due to the coaching, or in spite of it? Seeing as how JOB's coaching doesn't seem to have changed, I would happily speculate it is due to an increase in talent level.

Minutes played ALL SEASON for Josh last year
524

Two years ago:
279

This year after 20 games:
480


Minutes by Troy this year for the Pacers:
0


So you (BIRD) removed Troy totally and increased (forced by Bird) Josh's PT by 4 times, and even then he's still at a backups level of 24 mpg.

Josh per 36
Points - 10.3, 12.3, 10.0
Assists - 2.1, 3.0, 3.8
Blocks - 2.1, 1.1, 1.8
Steals - 1.5, 1.2, 1.4
Rebounds - 9.5, 8.7, 9.5

Josh's output has NOT CHANGED ONE BIT from this year compared to the prior two seasons. His assists are up, but they were already at a pretty nice level for a PF.

One thing only changed - playing time. It's a complete falsehood to suggest that Josh finally "got it". The numbers across the board suggest that nothing changed and I'm sure I could find plenty of highlight clips of him making the same kinds of plays last year as this.

Have we forgotten his irrelevant first half against the Lakers last year, just for starters. Did that earn him a bunch more PT? Of course not.




Other non-coaching changes forced by roster situations (and maybe front office hints):
Hibbert MPG - 14.4 (less than Rasho), 25.1, 29.8
Rush's eFG% - 49%, 51% (when some fans thought he sucked), 56%

Watson minutes for Pacers - 0
Collison minutes for Pacers - 485

Minutes Roy put into MMA training over the summer - a lot
Minutes that involved JOB helping him with this training - zero

Roy busted butt to be more athletic, Rush got himself into trouble and responded with determination not to fail. Both were already playing pretty well last year and not getting much respect from their coach (and some fans).

[MLB007]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

LOL, that's funny.

[Speed]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

I'd disagree that he hasn't improved, in spite of the numbers.

He's much smarter, much better defensively, both on and off the ball. Much better individual and team defender now.

Maybe the measureables project out, but a big difference for Josh is also understanding of the game. Before he'd miss defensive rotations, not get good enough low defensive position...etc. Really just not being where he should offensively and defensively consistently.

I don't disagree that his numbers over higher minutes were there and it could be argued that he would have "got" the other stuff quicker with experience. I just don't think the numbers tell the whole story here.

I'd call it a combination of getting minutes AND overall improvement for Josh.


Not playing Troy was going to be an upgrade either way, imo.

[vnzla81]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

No doubt is players improvement, Rush got bigger, Roy got stronger and quicker, Dunleavy is healthy, Danny is focusing on defense, Josh is still learning and I think he is the same player we saw last year, Posey is a good addition(even tough I don't like his minutes), Solo is better than last year(no by much) and DC is and improvement over Watson.

[BillS]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

I've been arguing that there is a great improvement in Josh's effectiveness with the flow of the offense that I think wasn't there last year and that I attribute to more confidence in what he can do with the ball in his hands so he can focus more on the flow instead of contributing in a sudden way.

His number may not have changed but I think the WAY he gets those numbers has changed. Last year the reason to play him was that he would do something different and shake things up. This year the reason to play him is that he will facilitate the way things are supposed to go. That is different.

[Unclebuck]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

We discussed this in a thread about a week ago. many thought it was no Troy that had the biggest impact, I thought it was the improved play of Roy and how the players had bought into playing defense.

Also Mike is healthy, Rush is playing better than ever. Collison is an improvement over our starter last season.

Here is the thread where many of us discussed this - although this thread is more just about the defensive improvment

http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=58817

[Jon Theodore]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

Of course our talent level has improved from last year...so has our record. As I have said...we are right where we should be. IF we were a few games above .500 we would be BEYOND overachieving.

[Shade]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

McRoberts > Murphy
Collision > Watson
JOB = JOB

Draw your conclusions from there.

[Speed]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

McRoberts > Murphy
Collision > Watson
JOB = JOB

Draw your conclusions from there.

10/11 Roy > 09/10 Roy

10/11 Dun > 09/10 Dun

10/11 Rush > 09/10 Rush, so far

10/11 Posey at PF > 09/10 Dahntay Jones at PF

10/11 Solo > 09/10 Solo

10/11 TJ > 09/10 TJ

It's really across the board like this, or seems to be.

[vnzla81]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

Speed I agree with everything you have but Ford, to me is like this: 09/10 Ford= 10/11 Ford


Edit: I also agree with Shade on Jim: 09/10 Jim = 10/11 Jim same BS different year.

[BillS]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

So here's a question - if JOB is EXACTLY the same, and if the only improvement has been the players, then how could last year's failures all have been due to JOB? Wouldn't it follow that if the losses were all due to coaching we'd still be losing at the same rate since the coaching didn't change?

Remember, our argument has NEVER been that JOB is somehow a great coach, only that he wasn't as responsible for mediocrity as some people blamed him for.

[Speed]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

So here's a question - if JOB is EXACTLY the same, and if the only improvement has been the players, then how could last year's failures all have been due to JOB? Wouldn't it follow that if the losses were all due to coaching we'd still be losing at the same rate since the coaching didn't change?

Remember, our argument has NEVER been that JOB is somehow a great coach, only that he wasn't as responsible for mediocrity as some people blamed him for.

Great question! It's almost an argument that JOB and what he's been trying to do is valid, not the opposite.

[Unclebuck]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

So here's a question - if JOB is EXACTLY the same, and if the only improvement has been the players, then how could last year's failures all have been due to JOB? Wouldn't it follow that if the losses were all due to coaching we'd still be losing at the same rate since the coaching didn't change?

Remember, our argument has NEVER been that JOB is somehow a great coach, only that he wasn't as responsible for mediocrity as some people blamed him for.

No Bill - the argument is that O'Brien was baaaaaad last season and he is baaaaad this season, but the talent level and the players are playing better this year so the team is improved in spite of Jim O'Brien.

And if there might happen to be any improvement in the coaching however slight it is because coach is finally doing what we all wanted him to do all along. ie: play Josh, stick with Roy and so forth on down the line.

Last thing: if only coach had done what we wanted sooner (last season or season before) like play Roy, Rush, Josh, AJ - bench TJ, Troy, Mike, Jeff - this team would be really good right now. Any player improvement is in spite of coach, but slow progress or lack of improvement from any of the players is because of coach.

Maybe I should switch to the "otherside" this is sort of fun

[vnzla81]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

So here's a question - if JOB is EXACTLY the same, and if the only improvement has been the players, then how could last year's failures all have been due to JOB? Wouldn't it follow that if the losses were all due to coaching we'd still be losing at the same rate since the coaching didn't change?

Remember, our argument has NEVER been that JOB is somehow a great coach, only that he wasn't as responsible for mediocrity as some people blamed him for.

All you have to see is how many more games they won last year until this point, maybe five more than last year?

Look, all we are saying is that the players improved and because of that the team is better even with Jim as the coach, nobody is saying that the players went from ok players to all star players now, they were just good last year and are better now.

[Since86]

Re: Coaching or players - why the improvement

Last thing: if only coach had done what we wanted sooner (last season or season before) like play Roy, Rush, Josh, AJ - bench TJ, Troy, Mike, Jeff - this team would be really good right now.

Bill said pretty much the samething in another thread.

Part of the reason why I get so irritated with this discussion is because we have been talking about it for 8freaking months and you guys still mischaracterize our actual argument.

No one said TJ, Troy, Mike, or Jeff should have been benched. We said played less.

Reread that again.


It's kind of hard to have a logical discussion when one side plugs their ears, shuts their eyes, and just jumps to their own conclusions. But whatever, we're the one's playing in hyperbole.